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Post by rach02 on Dec 14, 2018 18:29:15 GMT
There's nothing manipulative about my actions. I want a romantic relationship; one that includes intimacy. I'm simply suggesting a movie at her place, because I don't want friendship with an ex; I want intimacy. She has the freedom to accept or deny. There is no manipulation here. If she denies, then I realize that she does not want more than mere friendship and I walk. I'll stop initiating if she denies me. If anything, her actions indicate manipulation. Why dress up, wear lipstick, makeup, get her hair done and see me Sunday for dinner, and greet me with a kiss on the lips when she slept with a guy the night before. That's right, she slept with someone the night before seeing me. I drove by her home that night after finishing my night (I know, creepy, it's a first for me), because I needed and answer before seeing her-- I needed to know if I'm Plan B so I can act accordingly. There was a strange car in her driveway at 1am. She doesn't have female friends over. During our dinner I asked about her Saturday and she was elusive about it. There's no doubt she's sleeping with someone. Understandable-- we're single now. But why continue to see me for dinner and lead me? To kiss me, dress nice, accept my dinner requests. If anything I am the one being manipulated and strung along. Asking her for dinner at her place is simply testing to see if she's willing to take this further-- if she's serious. If she's not, then I move on. And to the poster above: I have been reflecting on myself, so much. Stop lashing out against me. Since the BU I re-entered therapy, read about attachment styles, journal, watch videos about breakups and talk plenty about it with friends. I've been mourning our relationship the past 6-7 weeks and have been completely unproductive as a result. You don't know me. Back off with your hostility. As for you thinking my love is selfish-- psychotherapy suggests that all love is narcissistic and selfish. This is an honest question- have you stopped to really try to understand what her perspective is. To see yourself through her lens and not try to justify away your behavior? To see how she is hurt because of her own attachment wounds and how what you do is hurtful to her? How it breaks trust and damages your relationship? I am not in any way saying she isn’t playing a game too. She may be. Do you want a relationship that is a game? You are certainly playing on your side- you are scheming and it’s hard for me that you don’t see that. This is coming from someone who has done it- I have no judgement. You are just clearly caught up and can’t see it. I have been too so I understand but from the side I’m on now it is actually painful to me to see it in you. You aren’t mourning your relationship- you are trying to escape the loss and find a way back. That’s not the same. I have spent 9 months Mourning a relationship from when I was 18. I’m 36. It is all consuming and painful and you’ll be stuck as long as you keep looking for an exit. You can’t escape the pain you have to go through it and let it change you. If you really want this relationship you will do that- otherwise nothing will ever change between you two. What I have learned from going through my pain of loss- is that real love isn’t narcissistic and selfish. It is loving them completely as they are, even if that isn’t the person you want them to be, even if that is a person who doesn’t want to be with you, even if that is a person that hurts you. You respect them and their needs and you honor your own because in giving up your own you only hurt them and yourself. You see them for who they are. You would see that a DA would see you driving by her house at 1 am is an extreme breach of privacy and that you are not someone she can trust. That you are accusing her without checking in- which is unfair. But if you checked in you would have to tell her the truth of how you know. The stories you tell, the things you do and the things you say are not kind and loving things. Can you see that? Don’t pad it with excuses- can you see how they are hurtful? I know they are from a hurt person and I know they don’t reflect your basic good nature. The one that does love her and only wants to be with her. Those things are your coverings that are protecting you from your fears and your pain. But man- you have got to drop those. They are toxic. It’s hard but if you want to change this you have to clean up your side of the street, as they say. You can’t do that while you are actively engaging in this dynamic- especially if she isn’t doing the work on her side too. I realize that she's hurt from the breakup. I realize that she may be confused about what she wants. I have empathy for her and try to understand her perspective. This thread is simply about my perspective. I can't try to decipher what she's feeling and thinking-- that's a waste of time. I'll never know what she's feeling and thinking. All I know is how I'm feeling, so that's why I write so much about my own perspective and not hers. I'm not here to tell love stories. I have written plenty of loving things in my journals. You're right, I'm not mourning. Not entirely. I'm still trying to get back together. But this is my final stand. I'll know my answer when she replies. If it's a no, then I can move on and mourn. If it's a yes, then I will use all the knowledge I learned about myself, therapy and attachment theory to heal my anxious style, while understanding her need for space and independence. What if I told you that this was my first relationship in a decade and I'm 30? No wonder I'm scheming to hold it together. No wonder I'm acting so anxious. My relationship maturity is low. Also, don't tell me that I don't love her. You only see a tiny fragment of my thoughts through these posts. My posts are focused on my perspective and finding an answer to all of this. If you read my journals you would see the love. I hold no resentment towards her. And I will continue to care deeply about her even if we cannot reconcile. She will always be in my heart. |
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lilos
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Post by lilos on Dec 14, 2018 18:42:47 GMT
rach02- I’m not saying you don’t love her. I can see you do. I’m just saying your behavior isn’t reflective of that- surely not to her and if you are trying to show a person you love them- you have to do it in a way they can feel it. Right now it seems to me you are asking to be loved- not to show love. I get that. But they way you are asking to be loved repels her. That’s the nature of this AP-DA dynamic right? What I am saying- and I hope you can hear this as sincere- is that you shouldn’t put your final stand in from this point you are at. You should instead do real work on yourself. Part of that will ultimately be identifying what you really want in life. After sometime you can then honestly look if she can give that to you. Then you go back in. Where you are at right now is so likely to fail. If not right now then soon. If you really want it to work you will put in the effort, change, then go back in if it’s right for you. And you’ll do it even if it means she moves on in the mean time because you need to heal yourself for more than just this relationship. It’s for you and you deserve to be truly happy.
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Post by sissyk on Dec 14, 2018 18:54:19 GMT
As an aside here in the midst of this discussion, it strikes me our whole culture cheers when people "win over" the reluctant or hesitant love object after many setbacks through steadfast effort. This is the theme of every movie and novel and, not to get all Joseph Campbell here, perhaps a universal quest.
I hadn't dated since the FIRST Bush administration, and info junkie that I am, I boned up on dating advice by reading and watching videos before reentering the swim. Mountains of best sellers tell you exactly how to play it to land a partner (don't text, lean back, people like what they work hard for etc etc etc.) In hindsight none of it was helpful in my case--in fact it was terrible to have clogging up my brain and instincts!-- but we are awash in this kind of strategic thinking about relationships and I wanted to keep up.
Rach...again. How's about just asking her with your voice (rather than by text.) I have loved spending time with you again but I am confused here. I want us to get back together. Is that a possibility now or ever in your mind? I think if you are direct and speak your peace if nothing else you will heal from this quicker--rather than beating yourself up with other strategies you could have tried endlessly.
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Post by rach02 on Dec 14, 2018 19:00:16 GMT
rach02 - I’m not saying you don’t love her. I can see you do. I’m just saying your behavior isn’t reflective of that- surely not to her and if you are trying to show a person you love them- you have to do it in a way they can feel it. Right now it seems to me you are asking to be loved- not to show love. I get that. But they way you are asking to be loved repels her. That’s the nature of this AP-DA dynamic right? What I am saying- and I hope you can hear this as sincere- is that you shouldn’t put your final stand in from this point you are at. You should instead do real work on yourself. Part of that will ultimately be identifying what you really want in life. After sometime you can then honestly look if she can give that to you. Then you go back in. Where you are at right now is so likely to fail. If not right now then soon. If you really want it to work you will put in the effort, change, then go back in if it’s right for you. And you’ll do it even if it means she moves on in the mean time because you need to heal yourself for more than just this relationship. It’s for you and you deserve to be truly happy. Okay. Thank you for the feedback. You're correct in that my behavior is not reflective of my love. Perhaps I am repelling her. So what can I do from here? Last night after she replied to me that she's going to sleep and I texted her "Do you still have that movie recorded? Let's watch it this weekend. I'll bring wine and popcorn". She never replied yet. She usually does. I believe she's thinking it through. You're right: I probably need to heal more before trying again if I want it to last a 2nd time. SO what do I do from here? What if she accepts or denies my invitation? This is where my anxious style goes haywire. Should I text her "Never mind. Disregard my movie suggestion. I think more space is best". Or do I just wait for her reply... |
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Post by rach02 on Dec 14, 2018 19:10:34 GMT
As an aside here in the midst of this discussion, it strikes me our whole culture cheers when people "win over" the reluctant or hesitant love object after many setbacks through steadfast effort. This is the theme of every movie and novel and, not to get all Joseph Campbell here, perhaps a universal quest. I hadn't dated since the FIRST Bush administration, and info junkie that I am, I boned up on dating advice by reading and watching videos before reentering the swim. Mountains of best sellers tell you exactly how to play it to land a partner (don't text, lean back, people like what they work hard for etc etc etc.) In hindsight none of it was helpful in my case--in fact it was terrible to have clogging up my brain and instincts!-- but we are awash in this kind of strategic thinking about relationships and I wanted to keep up. Rach...again. How's about just asking her with your voice (rather than by text.) I have loved spending time with you again but I am confused here. I want us to get back together. Is that a possibility now or ever in your mind? I think if you are direct and speak your peace if nothing else you will heal from this quicker--rather than beating yourself up with other strategies you could have tried endlessly. Yes, to 'win them over' is the ultimate victory. So many stories portray this. And we feel it in our gut that we need to secure the object of love, despite all odds. To go against this is to go against all instinct within us and from what we learned in stories. All the logic and rational information out there points to no-contact once a breakup happens, and that goes against all these instincts I have to re-secure my love. 6-7 weeks into the breakup and I still don't know if it's wise to chase or back off. The romantic, emotional side of my brain battles the rational part. As for talking to her (rather than text) she does not answer her phone. She lets all her phone calls go to voicemail. She would not answer my call. Perhaps I could do what you suggest next time I meet her in person. I've been wanting to do just that, but I fear pushing her away. I fear triggering her avoidant need to detach at the sight of commitment and emotional talk. If we do meet again I will definitely make sure to have a serious conversation, even if it's just for 15min at the end of our 'date'. I can't keep pretending like nothing has happened. |
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ab
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Post by ab on Dec 15, 2018 16:05:58 GMT
Hi rach02, Your story sounds so similar to mine. I met this amazing woman and we fell in love instantly. She was totally in love with me and absolutely no signs of avoidant attachment style at all. I probably shared more on the emotional side, but she was also very open and honest with many things in her life. She was the first to use the L word and the first to introduce me to her son after only about 10 days. She told me in no uncertain terms that she wants to spend the rest of her life with me and that I was like no other man she had ever met. She couldn't wait to introduce me to her family. It was amazing how everything just clicked and sex was out of this world for both of us. Then about 2.5 months into the relationship she backed out of 2-3 dates at the last minute using vague excuses (I just want to be alone tonight, I'm tired, I need to do some work, my son needs me, etc.) but I didn't think too much of it at the time although it made me somewhat sad. Then this pulling back (or pushing me away) started to happen more often. It was so weird. When we did see each other, it was amazing because we had this beautiful connection. We traveled a lot together and I spent many nights at her place. However, she was constantly finding excuses not to spend time together. We tried many times to discuss this on-again off-again situation, but somehow couldn't figure it out and always ended up in each other's arms making made passionate love. About 7.5 months into the relationship we went on vacation together for 10 days, a trip that she planned as she used to live in that area. We had an amazing time together. She showed me where she used to live and took me to some of her old haunts. We basically spent 24/7 together and got along really well. We both had a great time. And again love-making on an emotional level that is almost unfathonable. We connected so well. On the flight on the way home she was smiling from one ear to the other and it was so obvious to everybody who saw her how in love she was. Then we came home and she basically didn't even want to see me. Welcome to life with someone who has an avoidant attachment style! We got so amazingly close on our trip that after we came back she couldn't help, but push me away. This is when I found out about attachment styles and read up on them. When I first showed her what I found she immediately said "That's me to a T". In the meantime she has broken up with me and told me that this attachment style stuff is nonsense and that I shouldn't try to play psychologist. The reasons for wanting to break-up have nothing to do with how we get along or not being attracted to me anymore, but simply worries about maybe us not being compatable in the future, clearly just some justification for her running away. Btw we still maintained contact and she also wrote a few times that I look hot or commented on how handsome I look, just as your woman did. It is also really tough for me because I really love her so I totally hear where you are coming from. However, hard it is I have decided that this woman is not healthy for me. The on-again off-again stuff was killing me. One day she would be absolutely mad about me telling me what a fantastic guy I am and a few days later making up all kinds of excuses to not even see me and without any suggestion for when we could possibly meet. It drove me crazy as sometimes we wouldn't see each other for over a month and then suddenly "do you want to come over tonight?" or even worse "do you want to come over tomorrow?" then cancel at the last minute with one of those bizarre excuses. My suggestion is to talk with your woman and be honest. I agree with some of the other comments about not playing games. Talk about attachment styles with her and if she's open show her Jeb Kinnison's book on avoidants. But as Jeb wrote, most avoidants (as my woman) are not interested in changing because they don't perceive a problem. Trying to convince them (even if you are absolutely correct) is futile and counterproductive, they will just dig in harder. This is probably the big mistake I made. If she's not interested in working with you to change her behaviour to become more secure in order to open herself up to you, move on! It may be tough for a while, but you WILL find someone at least as good if not better. Good luck my man! Wow. We experienced nearly the SAME relationship. Ridiculous. This just shows how universal attachment theory behavior is. Cannot believe how identical your situation is to mine. I don't understand why they were so eager to commit to us at the beginning? Yours told you the L word. Both of exs introduced us to their son early. They both spoke of future plans early. We both went on vacations early. This behavior can't be conscious by them. I don't believe it is. They have an willingness to have a relationship but flee once they realize they're in one. Have you ever talked to her about what you expect/want from the relationship? I imagine that kind of talk would scare her away. My ex also doesn't like psychology talk or talk or emotions. She would not be open to learning about attachment theory or believing that there's a rooted issue that needs to be fixed. I wonder if they're aware of their patterns? Surely these kind of people are serial daters who move out of the arms of one love and into the arms of another all too often. I wonder if they're content? My ex agreed to see me for a 2nd time a few days ago. All went well, just like the 1st time. She greeted me with a kiss, she dressed up (makeup, hair done, lipstick). We drank and ate. She picked food off my plate playfully. We talked for 1.5hrs. Then I walked her to her car. She was going to enter the car without a proper good bye and I turned her hips around and kissed her. She was responsive. I kissed her again. I asked to come over and she gave me an excuse. I'm going to suggest a movie at her place this weekend. She's been avoiding having me over. If she gives me an excuse I'll text "No problem. Let me know when you're free then". Then I'll stop initiating completely. Unlike you, friend, I cannot let her go. I care about her too much and our time together was bliss. This will be my final stand. |
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 15, 2018 16:43:14 GMT
Here is the rub with AP....trying to figure someone else out to get what we need is always the first strategy that will come to mind. The "other" focus was learned very early on as a way to get the love and attention we needed....and it kinda worked with our parents...so why wouldn't it work with a partner? Especially since Hollywood loves to push... impossible relationships working out...in our face. But the first thing I would suggest doing...is not only to work on yourself...but find a couple who is secure and pick their brain on how love looks and feels like. I truly believe part of the issue is we never had a guide to show us the way...just books and videos and boards...and always we bring our own slant to it...our own disfunction. But when you see it played out in real life...it is very different and allows you the chance to learn and grow in your own relationship skills.
I know all too well the road you are going down....because I have been there with B...and it still did not result in winning him back. You can love her and let her go to be who she is meant to be.
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ab
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Post by ab on Dec 15, 2018 18:37:35 GMT
Wow. We experienced nearly the SAME relationship. Ridiculous. This just shows how universal attachment theory behavior is. Cannot believe how identical your situation is to mine. I don't understand why they were so eager to commit to us at the beginning? Yours told you the L word. Both of exs introduced us to their son early. They both spoke of future plans early. We both went on vacations early. This behavior can't be conscious by them. I don't believe it is. They have an willingness to have a relationship but flee once they realize they're in one. Have you ever talked to her about what you expect/want from the relationship? I imagine that kind of talk would scare her away. My ex also doesn't like psychology talk or talk or emotions. She would not be open to learning about attachment theory or believing that there's a rooted issue that needs to be fixed. I wonder if they're aware of their patterns? Surely these kind of people are serial daters who move out of the arms of one love and into the arms of another all too often. I wonder if they're content? My ex agreed to see me for a 2nd time a few days ago. All went well, just like the 1st time. She greeted me with a kiss, she dressed up (makeup, hair done, lipstick). We drank and ate. She picked food off my plate playfully. We talked for 1.5hrs. Then I walked her to her car. She was going to enter the car without a proper good bye and I turned her hips around and kissed her. She was responsive. I kissed her again. I asked to come over and she gave me an excuse. I'm going to suggest a movie at her place this weekend. She's been avoiding having me over. If she gives me an excuse I'll text "No problem. Let me know when you're free then". Then I'll stop initiating completely. Unlike you, friend, I cannot let her go. I care about her too much and our time together was bliss. This will be my final stand. Dear rach02, There are a lot of comments for you to chew on. Some I think are spot on, some not really and others quite harsh. I will refrain from making comments and let you pick and chose the ones you think are valid and apply to you. Btw I can 100% totally relate to how you are feeling because of what I went through with my DA. However you cannot be dwelling on this relationship any longer. It is unhealthy for you. You need a new plan and you need to stick to it. This is what I suggest: 1.) Do not initiate contact 2.) If she contacts you, keep your responses limited (Not because you want to play games, but because you need to avoid coming across as desperate and don't want to make a fool of yourself) 3.) If she invites you to her place for dinner or a movie or whatever, feel free to accept. But only if it fits conveniently into your schedule otherwise suggest another time knowing full well that she will probably say no. It's okay if she says no, if you really love her, you're in it for the long haul. If it's meant to be, there will be another opportunity. Stay cool my man! 4.) Do NOT under any circumstances drive by her house or go anywhere you might possibly run into her. Also don't stalk her on social media. (you don't want her to think that you are a stalker. You know and I know you're not a stalker and that it is the DA that is making you insecure, but how she perceives you is sometimes more important than who you really are). 5.) Let her sleep with anybody she wants and have the confidence in her that she will use the proper protection. Actually you want her to sleep with someone else, because if you guys really had it that amazing together, the other guy will not be able to compare. And believe me she WILL compare. We all compare our new lovers with the previous ones and if you do something stupid now, she will just be confirmed in her belief that you are not the right guy for her. So be cool and play the long game. And btw if she is really not the one for you and you love her, you will want her to be happy and that means finding a new guy. If she discovers that this new guy is better than you, so be it. Be happy for her and be happy for the beautiful moments she gave you. Also keep in mind that DAs quickly find new lovers, but can also turn sour on them quickly, as we well know. 6.) Make a list of all the things you don't or didn't like about your DA girlfriend. Refer to this list when you get tempted to initiate contact or are missing her. This will help you realize that she is NOT perfect and will allow you to come back down to earth and concentrate on the other important things in your life. 7.)"Luck favors those who hustle while they wait" Take care of yourself both physically and mentally. Eat healthy, reduce sugar and salt intake, drink less or no alcohol, work out both cardo and with weights, and start something new e.g. learn to play bridge, learn a foreign language, learn to juggle, join a hiking or cycling club, take a class at the local communicty college, etc. The last thing on the list is by far the most important. If makes you a better person and a more attractive man not only to your lady, but also to any future women you may meet. And although it may be hard to imagine right now, there could be an even more amazing woman out there somewhere for you. Remember hustle while you wait! Also keep in mind that human beings are highly complex and emotional creatures, not everything will make sense so don't bust your brain trying. Her reasons for breaking up with you might not make any sense at all, but they are her reasons and she has every right to make decisions based on them even if they are not logical. Don't try to confince her otherwise. There is another very important aspect to Dismissive Avoidants that you should be aware of if you are not already. It could very well be that she ran away from you because you touched something very deep inside her, which I believe was also true in my case. Just fyi my DA has also found someone new and this is very common for DA types. Because they always have one foot out of the relationship it is very easy for them to move on. So assuming that she broke up and pushed you away because you got too close not because her feelings for you are gone. Her inner subconscious voice will now find some excuse or excuses (age difference too large) why you two shouldn't be together and convince her of it. However, it could also be that a 15-year age difference is a legitimate concern of hers. What happens when you are 55 and she is already 70? Do you not want to have kids one day? I digress, my apologies. So when a DA finds themselves in a romantic relationship that is going really well and touches them deep inside causing conflict inside their head, they can do one of the following: 1.) Admit that they are a DA and work on becoming more secure and/or getting their partner to be more unstanding and have more patience. This requires a lot of opening up and in general is very difficult for DAs to do. And not easy for their partners either so be careful what you wish for. 2.) Break up with their partner and find someone new. The new partner will either become: a.) boring and uninteresting and she will fall out of love - good for you as she might realize what she is missing. However she is DA so she might have convinced herself that you two are really not compatible. b.) new partner also touches them deep inside, the whole cycle starts anew, which could be good for you as she would maybe ask herself why not go back to that which I know and love c.) new partner is a bit boring, but on the whole ok. This creates less conflict in the head and might be a good comprise for your DA girlfriend so that she doesn't have to deal with some of her issues from childhood that she otherwise would with you. Not good for your relationship with her, but it's her choice and her loss. And so it is really totally up to her and there is little you can do except what I suggested above - hustle while you wait. But don't have too much hope, DAs often just dump you and move on. Nevertheless good luck! |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 15, 2018 21:49:14 GMT
So assuming that she broke up and pushed you away because you got too close not because her feelings for you are gone. Her inner subconscious voice will now find some excuse or excuses (age difference too large) why you two shouldn't be together and convince her of it. ... So when a DA finds themselves in a romantic relationship that is going really well and touches them deep inside causing conflict inside their head, they can do one of the following: 1.) Admit that they are a DA and work on becoming more secure and/or getting their partner to be more unstanding and have more patience. This requires a lot of opening up and in general is very difficult for DAs to do. And not easy for their partners either so be careful what you wish for. 2.) Break up with their partner and find someone new. The new partner will either become: a.) boring and uninteresting and she will fall out of love - good for you as she might realize what she is missing. However she is DA so she might have convinced herself that you two are really not compatible. b.) new partner also touches them deep inside, the whole cycle starts anew, which could be good for you as she would maybe ask herself why not go back to that which I know and love c.) new partner is a bit boring, but on the whole ok. This creates less conflict in the head and might be a good comprise for your DA girlfriend so that she doesn't have to deal with some of her issues from childhood that she otherwise would with you. Not good for your relationship with her, but it's her choice and her loss. This matches my experience with FA, so I think the entire reply is insightful and good. So far my ex has chosen #2c, and I do sincerely feel that long-term it is his loss, though shorter-term he's avoiding some pain. His loss not even from the perspective of he shunned me romantically though he has told me I'm a great partner and everything he ever wanted, but because he will stay stuck looping in the unhappiness his unaddressed issues cause him while I move on to be more fulfilled because I faced the pain of my issues. I don't wish misery for someone I love, but in a way, that's how people's choices for themselves can play out and there's nothing I can do to make that better for him. Which is why rach02 is also getting comments to look closer at your half of things. You said you don't have much relationship experience or skills, plus you can tend towards anxious. Good news is, even if your ex doesn't respond the way in which you're hoping, you know you've got starting points to explore about yourself, and there's a lot you have the power to do to improve and be happier in both areas. |
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Post by leavethelighton on Dec 16, 2018 0:51:27 GMT
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Post by leavethelighton on Dec 16, 2018 0:58:27 GMT
She greets you with a kiss or is willing to end the night with one, but also plays silent-treatment games? This doesn't seem like someone you will have a strong future with. Take care of yourself. Also I think the advice of ab will likely lead to your continuing to just perpetuate your status quo and pain. Sure there's a small chance she will realize what you had and return to you forever more committed, but the "longgame" may be a very, very, very, very long game. Infinitely long if you know what I mean. Decide how long of your life you're really willing to spend on this hope. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 16, 2018 1:54:47 GMT
She greets you with a kiss or is willing to end the night with one, but also plays silent-treatment games? This doesn't seem like someone you will have a strong future with. Take care of yourself. Also I think the advice of ab will likely lead to your continuing to just perpetuate your status quo and pain. Sure there's a small chance she will realize what you had and return to you forever more committed, but the "longgame" may be a very, very, very, very long game. Infinitely long if you know what I mean. Decide how long of your life you're really willing to spend on this hope. I didn't read ab's advice that way, I read it as there's a small chance and it has very little to do with the OP, so go no contact and work on himself. Though now that I re-read it, yeah, I think it's still strong advice IF you subtract the word "wait." Doing that stuff while you "wait" instead of while trying to move on can keep you stuck, though it can also motivate you to get started on self-work -- and once that self-work starts, you may eventually find you're changing and so what you want is changing too, and you deserve more than "waiting." |
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