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Post by ocarina on Apr 6, 2019 20:46:33 GMT
ocarina - I find that people’s investment level matches their interest. If they aren’t interested in your life, asking questions and concerned with you and how YOU feel then they likely aren’t that interested. They may just be fair weathered friends who come around when it’s convenient for them. Be aware of that and either keep them arm’s length as well or find someone who is more willing to invest in you and what you need. Men always step up- when they want to. Hope you feel better soon!! 💜💜 Thanks and I do feel better - the weird thing is that I would have agreed with you re investment and interest - but it doesn't always seem to fit with disordered people - both these guys have told me that I am the love of their life!! - but behaviour wise it seems that love is something related to how I make them feel rather than the kind of love I need.
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Post by goldilocks on May 1, 2019 11:57:20 GMT
Maybe it is time to challenge yourself then. Maybe you can ask the first one that you want to meet, but in your home and if he would bring some tea or whatever for you ?!. Yes - thank you. I find it difficult to be vulnerable like this simply because I’ve been brave with him before and been blanked which reinforces the fear of doing it in the first place - but you are right. Yes I kind of know the feeling. You can ask yourself: Every time I am not asking for what I need or what I do not want, what is it that I am affraid of being seen as by the other person (needy, weak, dependent, whiney, lonely ect....) = your shadow! You can maybe find some inspiration in this thread to help you: jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1468/anger-integrety-boundaries-ectI think this is a common difficulty for any avoidant. Currently, I am asking for what I need, both with close friends and the man I am dating. I notice that when I have stated what I require or what I prefer not to do, I feel a sense of stress until a positive response happens. In the past, I was not aware of this stress, and often went without stating my needs and preferences. Some men met some needs of their own accord, maybe having a certain upbringing or standard to do nice things and offer help. Some men did not do this sufficiently and I walked. If you require very little, you will find many people willing to give very little. If you would require more, they might walk away or criticize you or see you as needy or spoiled and that is scary. I think many of us have grown up in unhealthy families where there was no time/space/care for our preferences and even our needs. Many of us come from neglect and abuse. Vulnerability might have been met with ridicule or anger. We can leave it behind us by assuming better standards and trusting new partners to do better if given the chance. A healthy partner wants to know your needs and preferences, love and friendship includes making each other's life more pleasant. It takes courage to open up, state my preference and to trust my partner will receive the message with compassion. I still feel the fear as I do so, and to manage this emotion is up to me. (What would be unreasonable would be to expect the partner to assuage the fear by anticipating every need ot to expect one person to meet all of your preferences.) Yet I trust the other to care about me and to seriously consider my request. If he is willing and able to meet my preference; awesome, we just got a bit closer and more deeply and authentically connected. If he respects my preference but is unable to meet is, I may feel dissapointed but still proud of the attempt and glad for the respect. If someone would ridicule my request, I can always walk away. But there is no need to walk preemptively. Most people are good people who respect your needs and preferences, even if the people you grew up with were not.
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Post by goldilocks on May 1, 2019 12:10:13 GMT
ocarina - I find that people’s investment level matches their interest. If they aren’t interested in your life, asking questions and concerned with you and how YOU feel then they likely aren’t that interested. They may just be fair weathered friends who come around when it’s convenient for them. Be aware of that and either keep them arm’s length as well or find someone who is more willing to invest in you and what you need. Men always step up- when they want to. Hope you feel better soon!! 💜💜 Thanks and I do feel better - the weird thing is that I would have agreed with you re investment and interest - but it doesn't always seem to fit with disordered people - both these guys have told me that I am the love of their life!! - but behaviour wise it seems that love is something related to how I make them feel rather than the kind of love I need. I am glad you are feeling better! Love is lovely only if it is the love YOU need and love. 💜
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Post by ocarina on May 1, 2019 14:49:49 GMT
Hello goldilocks and glad all is well with you. I think having a family who didn't respond to needs as a young child totally moulds your ability to ask and to trust that it's ok to ask. I am so much better at this with friends and from here have been able to feel how it feels to really be supported and to note those people who don't really support me and perhaps act accordingly. The two guys I mentioned back in this thread - one of them hasn't contacted me again - after a long long phonecall where I validated a lot of his needs - the other (my ex partner) has been in touch intermittently and came over during the weekend with a book he'd bought for me - and we're meeting this evening for a swim. I know 10000% that I need consistency in a relationship and am pretty sure he can't bring that but I also know that I am not very good at being open about exactly what is required and that's MY issue. I have a work situation at the moment which is causing lots of stress and again I think the root issue is not wanting to ask for what I need for fear of making other angry or being rebuffed....
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Post by goldilocks on May 1, 2019 17:41:35 GMT
I know 10000% that I need consistency in a relationship and am pretty sure he can't bring that but I also know that I am not very good at being open about exactly what is required and that's MY issue. I have a work situation at the moment which is causing lots of stress and again I think the root issue is not wanting to ask for what I need for fear of making other angry or being rebuffed.... Hello Ocarina! I too think this is the root. If you forego your needs and preferences out of fear of angering the other, you cannot bring yourself into the relationship. You are leaving the self, which its needs als likes and hopes and dreams, and going to to meet the needs of others. The only way to break the pattern is to take care of yourself first, bring your self to work, friendship, romance, and firmly but gently state what is required. "I am not available for overtime today." "I can talk to you on the phone if I get the opportunity to tell my story." "On saturday, I haven't time to make lunch, but if you pick up lunch we can eat together" "I have the flu, would you pick up some aspirin and bone broth for me?" If that angers a person let him or her be angry. That is their emotion to manage.
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Post by ocarina on May 1, 2019 20:21:18 GMT
I know 10000% that I need consistency in a relationship and am pretty sure he can't bring that but I also know that I am not very good at being open about exactly what is required and that's MY issue. I have a work situation at the moment which is causing lots of stress and again I think the root issue is not wanting to ask for what I need for fear of making other angry or being rebuffed.... Hello Ocarina! I too think this is the root. If you forego your needs and preferences out of fear of angering the other, you cannot bring yourself into the relationship. You are leaving the self, which its needs als likes and hopes and dreams, and going to to meet the needs of others. The only way to break the pattern is to take care of yourself first, bring your self to work, friendship, romance, and firmly but gently state what is required. "I am not available for overtime today." "I can talk to you on the phone if I get the opportunity to tell my story." "On saturday, I haven't time to make lunch, but if you pick up lunch we can eat together" "I have the flu, would you pick up some aspirin and bone broth for me?" If that angers a person let him or her be angry. That is their emotion to manage. Such good points goldilocks - and I hope it will improve with practice. I have endured very many years of subjugating my needs and it's time to unwind those habits. It's also very very helpful to remember that the reaction in the other person is not mine to deal with or feel guilty about.
I learnt to surf a few years back - and it's SOOOOO difficult - the movement from prone on the board to upright is key - and I learnt using the edge of one knee to push me up. It was fine for a few years but on bigger steeper waves it's a big handicap since it slows down the speed to standing and brings instability. I decided a week or two back I was no longer going to do that and it was so physically difficult not to - but after a couple of hours of being deliberate in my practice I mastered the technique and now I am up within seconds and it has revolutionised my surfing.
I am hoping that with such determination I can do the same with self care and boundary setting.
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Post by ocarina on May 11, 2019 19:26:09 GMT
I'm working hard on this stuff - and am often out of my comfort zone in that I am pushing to connect with people, avoiding walling myself off, getting out there with some group activities even when I don't feel like it - and it feels good. I am meeting people who seem normally social, who are interesting and open and who encourage me to be the same.
One problem area remains my ex DA partner - who declared undying love about 8 months ago having disappeared for a year after I was honest with him about my needs in our relationship. So behaviour wise it soon became clear that nothing had changed and so I put firm boundaries in placer regarding physical contact etc but we continue to see each other and even with the boundaries, the relationship still bothers me - he appears with a gift quite often - and we spend lovely times together - only for him to leave and not reply to my occasional text, not get together when I suggest something - and then he's back, maybe messaging saying he's becoming interested or reading something about something I am uber interested in. I don't know why this bothers me - but more and more I feel he's placeholding for me - that I need real friendships that meet needs of emotional closeness, with people who are open and reliable and are really there for me. I am teetering on the edge of being honest with him and suggesting we draw a line under even our limited friendship - with no hard feeling but because it's keeping me stuck in avoidant land in some way. I am not sure if I can really explain this - but I mediate a lot, sometimes on the subject of death - and it tends to bring strongly into focus how precious life in the now really is. I feel I am still in limbo in this relationship. Maybe this is me not him.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 20:53:50 GMT
ocarina It can be a trap to get into over-analyzing. I don't know if it's necessary to figure out if it's you or him. Do you not have enough evidence that he is not reliable for you and that the lack of reciprocity does not support your values and happiness? Maybe you have enough information and are familiar enough with your values to stop analyzing and make changes by choosing another direction, with new boundaries in place. This of course requires some letting go but real growth often does and the end result can be a more peaceful you, freed up to pursue your higher goals for relationships and personal growth. We all need HEALTHY mutual support to become the best versions of ourselves. Really. we don't have to shortchange ourselves once we realize we want better. We don't have to justify it. It's ok. It's not unreasonable to want and strive for reciprocity and to make the decisive choices that will get us there, which sometimes means saying NO to people who are fine with catching a ride on our hem. It's a drag and truly weighs you down when you settle for less than you are capable of and less than you need. Needs are ok and healthy and normal. But the only way you can get them met is to take action on what you know. I posted about reciprocity and availability in the "Things we think and do" thread, it outlines some areas of reciprocity, as a way to break it down for myself and decide what is healthy for me and what's not. Reciprocity is fundamental to healthy relationships, and for me it is all built on a foundation of emotional reciprocity and availability. The other forms of availability and reciprocity can vary amongst my relationships, not all fulfill the same things in my life. But ALL of my important personal relationships have emotional safety/reciprocity as the foundation. Looking at different areas of reciprocity helps me have boundaries around over giving and also supports my own generosity in being reciprocal. I don't twist myself around in relationships that don't fit any more.
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Post by ocarina on May 11, 2019 21:28:29 GMT
I have plenty of evidence @sherry - and I feel ready to really let go. The inspiration for some of this was from the things we think and do thread - I've struggled in the past to really know what's healthy and what's not. This friendship has a feeling of connection and familiarity which I think has kept me hooked - but I can see this is old stuff - the familiarity of an unhealthy bond which is not longer serving me.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 22:43:42 GMT
I have plenty of evidence @sherry - and I feel ready to really let go. The inspiration for some of this was from the things we think and do thread - I've struggled in the past to really know what's healthy and what's not. This friendship has a feeling of connection and familiarity which I think has kept me hooked - but I can see this is old stuff - the familiarity of an unhealthy bond which is not longer serving me. This is an excellent realization to come to. I've been there! It's VERY painful to get here but once you do, it's so illuminating and a real shift is possible. When there is true a availability and mutual support and the intention to protect the well being of both partners ( this is love and respect and compassion!) then the relationship can flow naturally and be nurturing , instead of being a continuous source of discomfort and doubt and negativity. Connection is not the same as reciprocity and respect. Familiarity is not the same as true comfort, it's just familiar, often familiar DISCOMFORT. We get to choose a new normal when we discover that we need one. I have found that consciously participating in reciprocal relationships eliminates the compulsion and attraction to imbalanced and unhealthy relationships COMPLETELY. Once you find shoes that fit why bother squeezing into something that hobbles you and gives you blisters?!? No need! And, it actually made my ex relationship more valuable and healthy, it's still a source of enlightenment and growth for me. It's very healing. We are mutually agreed about what works. Because of circumstances that are beyond our control a full relationship that meets our needs is not possible, but what we share now is balanced and does meet an important need. It's a real friendship, and while not my only source of emotional support and reciprocity , it's an important one. I know now what it feels like to be in relationships with trust, compassion, respect, support, mutual engagement. Some are friendships- some are family, some are colleagues that are friends. The mutual accommodations and efforts are natural and we don't even have to think about it. So the standard for a romantic relationship is higher now, and I don't need to live in uncomfortable familiar habits because my new habits are comfortable and truly fulfilling, I've learned and chosen and grown into a better way.
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Post by ocarina on May 12, 2019 17:42:55 GMT
Communication..... my ex partner and I have just met (bumped into each other) then ten minutes later a text invite to dinner tonight. I can't go as I have things to sort out at home but also I am so over the last minute communication thing - this was an issue over and over again in our relationship beside me being very clear that I have a busy life and can't do last minute ( as a rule). All this communication is by text - always.
So how would a secure person reply - usually I'd just say I am too busy but the same thing will happen again and again and again.
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Post by ocarina on May 12, 2019 17:44:08 GMT
I don't have anything against last minute but when it's constant and there is never any commitment to anything even in a friendship it feels wearing and asthough I am not at all a priority. Some of this is triggering from years of exposure
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Post by goldilocks on May 12, 2019 17:46:06 GMT
Communication..... my ex partner and I have just met (bumped into each other) then ten minutes later a text invite to dinner tonight. I can't go as I have things to sort out at home but also I am so over the last minute communication thing - this was an issue over and over again in our relationship beside me being very clear that I have a busy life and can't do last minute ( as a rule). All this communication is by text - always. So how would a secure person reply - usually I'd just say I am too busy but the same thing will happen again and again and again. I'd love to have dinner but already have plans tonight. Enjoy your evening!
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Post by ocarina on May 12, 2019 17:51:20 GMT
Thanks goldilocks - done it! I guess my feeling irritated and less than as a result of the constant last minute business is my own thing to deal with really. Something I have no control over.
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Post by goldilocks on May 12, 2019 17:59:21 GMT
It is best to take each invitation as it comes.
In advance, according to your preference and you are free? Great! You have a date.
Last minute and happens to be superconvenient? Great, you have a surprise dat.
Last minute and inconvenient? Good, you get to stick to your plan. Not so good for him, it may be a learning experience.
If it triggers you, your emotions are yours to manage. A last minute invite is just as good as no invite. You are free to let go of the friendship if you want. If he was able and willing to plan ahead, he probably would have by now. So maybe let him go and date others.
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