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Post by goldilocks on May 12, 2019 18:06:28 GMT
Thanks goldilocks - done it! I guess my feeling irritated and less than as a result of the constant last minute business is my own thing to deal with really. Something I have no control over. Yup, it is exactly that! There is no need to take it personally. He may have a preference for last minute outings. You do not. You do not control what he offers. Even if you really wish he offered something more suitable. it is not your responsibility to worry about that. You can only accept or reject his offers. Now some men do step up once they learn last minute does not work. Yet some do not. And that does not make you any less awesome.
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Post by ocarina on May 12, 2019 18:30:39 GMT
Thanks goldilocks - done it! I guess my feeling irritated and less than as a result of the constant last minute business is my own thing to deal with really. Something I have no control over. Yup, it is exactly that! There is no need to take it personally. He may have a preference for last minute outings. You do not. You do not control what he offers. Even if you really wish he offered something more suitable. it is not your responsibility to worry about that. You can only accept or reject his offers. Now some men do step up once they learn last minute does not work. Yet some do not. And that does not make you any less awesome. This is such a good reminder goldilocks and a particularly important point is that I am not his mother here to teach him to behave. I am also not a victim and choose to remain receptive or not - and whether to accept or reject. I can choose to feel constant frustration at his never changing, or I can choose to move on.
Thank you
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Post by goldilocks on May 12, 2019 19:54:38 GMT
You are right that any instinct to be his mother is best refrained from. It costs a lot of energy and the result is at best another child.
One thing I have learned in the past year is to move on/let go without getting rid of a person emotionally. I stay in place, doing my own thing and let him figure out for himself. I do not go into any deactivating line of thought; thinking he is wrong or not the guy for me. I just continue to see him as a man whose company I enjoy but who is not a boyfriend yet. I stay in the moment and take each date as it comes. Just being myself in the situation of uncertainty, accepting a variety of outcomes.
With the previous flirtation, he was quite hot for me and wanted to be in a relationship and have sex, but I had not yet seen any depth and made it clear I require some depth before both sex and relationship. This was a kind of vulnerability that was not easy to show, but I am glad I did. In my stance, what he does with that is up to him. At some point he just fell ill and cancelled a date and aside from a few text he dropped off the planet. It was at that point that I could decide he was not for me.
With my current interest, he asked for the next date at the end of each date in the beginning, then sort of relaxed for a while and tried a few last minutes. He noticed we had little time together, felt frustrated about this and initiated a conversation about it. He asked me if I want to get together more often and I said yes, I enjoy seeing him and can be flexible when asked in advance. I am also open to consider meeting on shorter notice, but what is then left over of my weekend is a few crumbs. Now he makes plans much further ahead, asks about my normal schedule etc. I am also glad I was open about it but let him figure out for himself.
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Post by ocarina on May 12, 2019 21:28:36 GMT
"One thing I have learned in the past year is to move on/let go without getting rid of a person emotionally. I stay in place, doing my own thing and let him figure out for himself. I do not go into any deactivating line of thought; thinking he is wrong or not the guy for me. I just continue to see him as a man whose company I enjoy but who is not a boyfriend yet. I stay in the moment and take each date as it comes. Just being myself in the situation of uncertainty, accepting a variety of outcomes."
I think if I am totally honest - I have been doing my own thing and EXPECTING him to figure it out for himself - but it just kind of never happens - he doesn't disappear but he also doesn't kind of get it and therefore do as your partner did and realise that if he didn't make some kind of advance plans sometimes then we never get together. I have tried telling him when I am free, telling him I am too busy and therefore last minute doesn't work - but none of it changes his behaviour. So lessons:
1 Don't be manipulative (even subtly)
2 Take note of what someones behaviour shows - he has said he wants to see me more often but this repeated behaviour shows something else
3 Be open and straightforward once or twice - and after that it's up to the other person to figure - or not.
4 Accept a variety of outcomes - choose what works for me and react accordingly
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Post by goldilocks on May 12, 2019 22:24:38 GMT
I think if I am totally honest - I have been doing my own thing and EXPECTING him to figure it out for himself - but it just kind of never happens - he doesn't disappear but he also doesn't kind of get it and therefore do as your partner did and realise that if he didn't make some kind of advance plans sometimes then we never get together. I have tried telling him when I am free, telling him I am too busy and therefore last minute doesn't work - but none of it changes his behaviour. So lessons: 1 Don't be manipulative (even subtly) 2 Take note of what someones behaviour shows - he has said he wants to see me more often but this repeated behaviour shows something else 3 Be open and straightforward once or twice - and after that it's up to the other person to figure - or not. 4 Accept a variety of outcomes - choose what works for me and react accordingly Those are beautiful lessons. Letting go of expectations is key. Have your standards and share them freely when asked, but do not expect any particular guy to meet them. As I mentioned, one guy did not meet my standards and I let him go. One guy did and I let him stay. There are other guys who keep in touch but are not meeting my standards or not compatible and I enjoy their company in the friendzone. Most men you meet will never be your spouse, many will be acquaintences, good lessons, dear friends or light flirtations. Love is rare.
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Post by sissyk on May 14, 2019 14:56:57 GMT
Great thread--lots of wisdom that I am finding very timely Was it somewhere on another thread someone posted this truth. "Not everything is about you." His frustrating behaviors may be how he is wired and he may not be able to integrate feedback or be capable of change. So yes, it is up to us to decide which is greater:The plus column or the minus column of maintaining a relationship with someone like that. And then step away if the minus column wins. Part of being a strong and yes secure person is the ability to tolerate some mess and chaos and gray area and even inadvertent rudeness in another person and not take it personally. But of course there is a line where one becomes the martyr so a valuable connection can survive. That is what I grapple with....
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 11:58:23 GMT
Any secure person can tolerate and have grace for occasional rudeness, and everyone has a bad day or stressors now and then that cause them to be not at their best. Being gracious around that is what friends at for.
However, if rudeness and selfish behavior is a hallmark of the dynamic in an "inner circle" relationship, one of your primary relationships, something is amiss. You don't have to take someone's shortcomings personally in order to determine that you don't like or accept the dynamic. It doesn't have to be personal to be lame and unenjoyable.
If found that if I'm consistently let down but trying to be the bigger person, I'm in an old role. I'm in the child role actually, in a relationship I don't naturally feel I have a choice in (a parent / child relationship.) I'm minimizing my feelings, my right to be treated with courtesy and respect, and my wish to live in simple kindness and reciprocity.
The only thing to take personally in that case is personal responsibility for the health of my relationships and what I create. If I consistently just take what is offered even though I don't feel good about what I'm receiving, and tell myself it's ok, and show the other, it's ok, I'm creating a relationship dynamic that doesn't reflect self care and self respect. It's not inappropriate to expect others to treat me as well as I treat them- and if they just can't do that it's not my fault, not my problem, and certainly not my obligation to acquiesce to their dynamic.
I don't be have to be combative or dramatic or wounded to say "Eh, I think I'd like to pass on this and find a better fit for a friendship." (boyfriend, employee, any relationship)
Birds of a feather flock together, and if someone else treats you without adequate courtesy, and it's a norm, and you accept with suffering, you can be pretty sure you're overlooking your own courtesy towards yourself by failing to have some standards and boundaries. Additionally, as you grow healthier and develop new relationship skills and have more to bring to the table, you will find a new flock, some birds of a feather.
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Post by ocarina on May 16, 2019 21:13:12 GMT
Any secure person can tolerate and have grace for occasional rudeness, and everyone has a bad day or stressors now and then that cause them to be not at their best. Being gracious around that is what friends at for. However, if rudeness and selfish behavior is a hallmark of the dynamic in an "inner circle" relationship, one of your primary relationships, something is amiss. You don't have to take someone's shortcomings personally in order to determine that you don't like or accept the dynamic. It doesn't have to be personal to be lame and unenjoyable. If found that if I'm consistently let down but trying to be the bigger person, I'm in an old role. I'm in the child role actually, in a relationship I don't naturally feel I have a choice in (a parent / child relationship.) I'm minimizing my feelings, my right to be treated with courtesy and respect, and my wish to live in simple kindness and reciprocity.
The only thing to take personally in that case is personal responsibility for the health of my relationships and what I create. If I consistently just take what is offered even though I don't feel good about what I'm receiving, and tell myself it's ok, and show the other, it's ok, I'm creating a relationship dynamic that doesn't reflect self care and self respect. It's not inappropriate to expect others to treat me as well as I treat them- and if they just can't do that it's not my fault, not my problem, and certainly not my obligation to acquiesce to their dynamic.I don't be have to be combative or dramatic or wounded to say "Eh, I think I'd like to pass on this and find a better fit for a friendship." (boyfriend, employee, any relationship) Birds of a feather flock together, and if someone else treats you without adequate courtesy, and it's a norm, and you accept with suffering, you can be pretty sure you're overlooking your own courtesy towards yourself by failing to have some standards and boundaries. Additionally, as you grow healthier and develop new relationship skills and have more to bring to the table, you will find a new flock, some birds of a feather. This is just it - it's a fine line from behaving with equanimity compassion and understanding to becoming an emotional doormat and not taking ones own feelings as being important as well as the other persons.
So I said a polite no to last weeks invite - and when we met for an activity which we do weekly in a group tonight, I hadn't heard any more from him - so tonights very last minute offer of dinner, again I politely refused. Free time is so precious and whilst I enjoy his company I don't like the last minute thing - it kind of leaves me hanging waiting for his next invite - and so instead I told him when I was free during the upcoming weekend and left it at that. It felt good - not from a controlling point of view but because so so often I will tolerate what I dont' like to keep the peace - or in the case of this relationship, to keep the relationship afloat. I do understand that he doesn't like to plan and finds it difficult - but I have a busy life - a full life and I need some kind of planning just to keep life afloat.
@sherry I know you understand something of what I mean - it is a very difficult puzzle to solve.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 21:28:30 GMT
ocarina, I didn't use to be much of a planner, because I lived very much in my head as an avoidant, and wasn't tuned in to connecting with others like I am nowz. It was out of sight, out of mind when it came to relationships. I guarded my alone time and had to be caught in the moment of being social in order to be involved with other people. I am much more connected now. It's not difficult to solve the puzzle when you are really emotionally available to yourself and others. Intimate relationships re no issue for me now. I enjoy them. I make a place for them, I facilitate them. I build them; I don't wait to see if they will just happen while I passively stand back and go with the flow. So, out of respect for my time and my friend's time, out of respect for my willingness to cooperate with what works for her, and her willingness to cooperate with what works for me, we plan ahead and keep our commitments. Neither of us used to be his way, both purely dismissive and in our bubbles. We are growing. Any romantic relationship will have to meet this same standard for me. My friendships all meet this standard. Aside from all the labeling of behaviors as good, bad, fair, right, whatever, blah blah blah, I like a relationship that just feels good. That's it- just friendships that make me happy. So simple. And what makes me happy has changed! My new relationships reflect that. It's so simple.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 22:02:17 GMT
Doing things a certain way simply because you like it is totally legit. Doesn't need a justification and compatible people aren't going to ask for one they will just get it.
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Post by ocarina on May 17, 2019 12:48:14 GMT
It is simple once you can really really really let go of all the old stuff and put yourself and your needs first - at that point all of the tomfoolery (love that word) with unavailable partners just falls away. It is difficult for me to NOT justify why I need things a certain way. I have been super strong, resilient, un needy, cool etc etc in all my relationships in the past. As an avoidant I was safe when I needed nobody so aside from solitude I am not sure I ever really examined what I would need to feel really safe in a relationship. What I need - and I am talking connection, communication, reciprocity etc whilst on the one hand it feels great - on the other it smacks (to the DA Ocarina) as needy and weak. It's letting go bit by bit and being truly OK with new found vulnerability that has brought me to where I am now. I still find it tricky to stick up for my needs after a lifetime of bowing to others, but I am getting there.
The ex DA almost seems like a ghost from the past now - and I know I would never go back to a relationship where everything I needed was on the back burner. It was a horrible falsity and incredibly draining - I chose to play that part so no blame.
Thanks for the support.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 14:27:54 GMT
It is simple once you can really really really let go of all the old stuff and put yourself and your needs first - at that point all of the tomfoolery (love that word) with unavailable partners just falls away. It is difficult for me to NOT justify why I need things a certain way. I have been super strong, resilient, un needy, cool etc etc in all my relationships in the past. As an avoidant I was safe when I needed nobody so aside from solitude I am not sure I ever really examined what I would need to feel really safe in a relationship. What I need - and I am talking connection, communication, reciprocity etc whilst on the one hand it feels great - on the other it smacks (to the DA Ocarina) as needy and weak. It's letting go bit by bit and being truly OK with new found vulnerability that has brought me to where I am now. I still find it tricky to stick up for my needs after a lifetime of bowing to others, but I am getting there. The ex DA almost seems like a ghost from the past now - and I know I would never go back to a relationship where everything I needed was on the back burner. It was a horrible falsity and incredibly draining - I chose to play that part so no blame. Thanks for the support. It's not about blame at all, you've simply outgrown who you were back then. I'm happy to support you!
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