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Post by alexandra on Oct 14, 2019 15:47:35 GMT
While I overall agree with @inmourning, there's one point I think is a little overstated that APs can easily read into with self-blame. Always having a calm and stable reaction, actually being secure, can help by not triggering the other person but if the partner is unaware or not doing the work, it is still unlikely to recondition anything or fix the repetitive conflict of needs. faithopelove, I dated someone this year for a few months who I'm pretty sure was FA and said basically exactly what you posted. He was very happy with how things were, which was half a relationship. And they were great, and I really cared about him, and I was always very calm and directly communicative with him even if he slightly triggered me more anxious. But I said while I was also happy, I wasn't going to be another few months down the road if things never continued moving forward / towards an actual commitment, and I thought we should end things if our needs were different. He tried to talk me out of it, as things were still good overall, while admitting he'd never give me more even though he wished he could. No one was in fight, flight, or freeze trigger mode when we had conversations like this. They were always calm and respectful. It changed nothing, and I'm certain we'd have come to the same outcome no matter what I did. So, I absolutely hated walking away, but after everything I've learned about these issues and having gotten myself stuck not leaving for 2-3 years with other avoidants and so unhappily contributing to the cycles... I knew it would hurt far less to leave now, and I have other relationship goals now that mean I can't spend all that time stuck on potential. And I had to deal with the fact he stopped speaking to me as a result, which made me feel very badly, but again -- I know that if that was his response to an incredibly mature and calm conversation and set of decisions, it would have eventually happened no matter what. He knows I care about him and would have liked some form of casual friendship or acquaintance-ship (not in the sexual sense, just not close because that probably would be too difficult) in the future, but I've respected his space as he doesn't seem to want that. And haven't let the entire situation stop me from moving on and enjoying my life, even though I still miss him sometimes. Almost all of us just try to do the best we can. It's still painful and worth mourning, but directing all the devastation and blame at yourself won't help you move forward in your own security. I'm going to keep encouraging you to forgive yourself for getting triggered -- it just means you've got more work to do outside of things with your DA ex to heal your own attachment. But while you could have stated your needs differently and sooner, it's not ultimately what's caused the problems between you and your ex, and there was no magic formula you could have found to make your dynamic healthy in the long-term. Because he's got half the responsibility for moving towards that. |
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 14, 2019 20:47:37 GMT
While I overall agree with @inmourning, there's one point I think is a little overstated that APs can easily read into with self-blame. Always having a calm and stable reaction, actually being secure, can help by not triggering the other person but if the partner is unaware or not doing the work, it is still unlikely to recondition anything or fix the repetitive conflict of needs. faithopelove, I dated someone this year for a few months who I'm pretty sure was FA and said basically exactly what you posted. He was very happy with how things were, which was half a relationship. And they were great, and I really cared about him, and I was always very calm and directly communicative with him even if he slightly triggered me more anxious. But I said while I was also happy, I wasn't going to be another few months down the road if things never continued moving forward / towards an actual commitment, and I thought we should end things if our needs were different. He tried to talk me out of it, as things were still good overall, while admitting he'd never give me more even though he wished he could. No one was in fight, flight, or freeze trigger mode when we had conversations like this. They were always calm and respectful. It changed nothing, and I'm certain we'd have come to the same outcome no matter what I did. So, I absolutely hated walking away, but after everything I've learned about these issues and having gotten myself stuck not leaving for 2-3 years with other avoidants and so unhappily contributing to the cycles... I knew it would hurt far less to leave now, and I have other relationship goals now that mean I can't spend all that time stuck on potential. And I had to deal with the fact he stopped speaking to me as a result, which made me feel very badly, but again -- I know that if that was his response to an incredibly mature and calm conversation and set of decisions, it would have eventually happened no matter what. He knows I care about him and would have liked some form of casual friendship or acquaintance-ship (not in the sexual sense, just not close because that probably would be too difficult) in the future, but I've respected his space as he doesn't seem to want that. And haven't let the entire situation stop me from moving on and enjoying my life, even though I still miss him sometimes. Almost all of us just try to do the best we can. It's still painful and worth mourning, but directing all the devastation and blame at yourself won't help you move forward in your own security. I'm going to keep encouraging you to forgive yourself for getting triggered -- it just means you've got more work to do outside of things with your DA ex to heal your own attachment. But while you could have stated your needs differently and sooner, it's not ultimately what's caused the problems between you and your ex, and there was no magic formula you could have found to make your dynamic healthy in the long-term. Because he's got half the responsibility for moving towards that. - Thanks for sharing your story- I can relate. My DA was very happy and content also in a half relationship, seeing each other spontaneously a few times a month, but when I pressed for more, and even asked him to make a choice, he left and shut him. We did have a very calm, open talk about a month ago. I told him he should know after 2.5 years if he wants me- and he said he knew that he wanted me and I make him happy...but he also told me he felt incapable and was afraid of breaking my heart. He also told me, while crying, how hurt he still is from his ex-wife leaving him bc he still has to deal w her every single day due to the kids and he never had time to heal (even though the divorce was 10 years ago.) He assured me he was always faithful and honest w me..but to me it was very sad bc he was obviously still very wounded from his divorce. So, our talk hit a dead end and the triggered texting a few weeks later led to this shut down. I agree also that the AP takes on a lot of self-blame in the rumination (beating up of oneself) and we are equal participants to this dynamic. He is a very hurting individual. Do you think I should just go NC or send a short text first stating “I’ll respect your space. In the meantime, I’m going to work on me.” Or should I just leave it at I’ll respect your space...or simply go silent? I doubt myself now bc I messed up recently, and my AP self would want a reach out before someone disappears, but his needs are very different. |
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Post by alexandra on Oct 14, 2019 21:11:22 GMT
faithopelove He already knows you're sorry and wanted to talk again, you don't need to say anything more right now. Going NC for yourself is totally appropriate, as long as it's not to wait out a reaction from him. You still talk about this in regards to him deciding, him making the decision, you telling him what you want so he can make a decision. The part missing here, that maybe NC can help you with, is you get to make decisions, too. That's the difference between your story and mine. I told the guy what I wanted, I asked and listened to what he wanted, and when it sounded incompatible, I made the decision to not keep my needs on hold in case he came around (while he was insisting verbally he wouldn't come around but hoped I'd stay anyway, and acted like he wanted me). I wasn't reactive, I just trusted I could make my own decisions that were still considerate to him as a person and weren't dismissive / disregarding either of us. When my long term FA ex dumped me and stonewalled me the second time, I was triggered as badly as I ever had been for about 10 days. But I'd been working diligently and consistently on my AP issues since our first breakup, a couple years earlier. After the triggered ruminating, going over all the contradictory things he'd said, trying to really listen, I seriously woke up one morning and it all stopped. I just UNDERSTOOD it all, on both our sides. I don't know if/when that would have happened without that breakup, but that was my initial moment of earning secure. You are still on a roller coaster right now, but accept that it's okay to put yourself first and this may be what you need for your own steps back (into anxious triggering) turn into leaps forward. I don't know why that second breakup was what I needed, and it felt miserable, but it turned out for the best. Maybe yours will too in the long-run. I'm glad you're feeling better today and didn't go to his house. Hang in there.
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 14, 2019 21:24:41 GMT
faithopelove He already knows you're sorry and wanted to talk again, you don't need to say anything more right now. Going NC for yourself is totally appropriate, as long as it's not to wait out a reaction from him. You still talk about this in regards to him deciding, him making the decision, you telling him what you want so he can make a decision. The part missing here, that maybe NC can help you with, is you get to make decisions, too. That's the difference between your story and mine. I told the guy what I wanted, I asked and listened to what he wanted, and when it sounded incompatible, I made the decision to not keep my needs on hold in case he came around (while he was insisting verbally he wouldn't come around but hoped I'd stay anyway, and acted like he wanted me). I wasn't reactive, I just trusted I could make my own decisions that were still considerate to him as a person and weren't dismissive / disregarding either of us. When my long term FA ex dumped me and stonewalled me the second time, I was triggered as badly as I ever had been for about 10 days. But I'd been working diligently and consistently on my AP issues since our first breakup, a couple years earlier. After the triggered ruminating, going over all the contradictory things he'd said, trying to really listen, I seriously woke up one morning and it all stopped. I just UNDERSTOOD it all, on both our sides. I don't know if/when that would have happened without that breakup, but that was my initial moment of earning secure. You are still on a roller coaster right now, but accept that it's okay to put yourself first and this may be what you need for your own steps back (into anxious triggering) turn into leaps forward. I don't know why that second breakup was what I needed, and it felt miserable, but it turned out for the best. Maybe yours will too in the long-run. I'm glad you're feeling better today and didn't go to his house. Hang in there. - Yes, I’m going into NC for me. I don’t expect any reaction from him- I’ve been the one initiating for two years. In our talk I told him I could no longer do casual but I didn’t have the strength to actually follow through- I’m more attached to this guy than I’ve ever been to anyone, including the father of my kids, so I’m having a hard time letting go. It is a roller coaster for me and I think distance will calm that end, at least. I already miss his friendship- although we were casual in a sense he was my go-to and we were exclusive. But I will push forward- thx for your support. |
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 15, 2019 4:16:47 GMT
It is not cruel not to want to sleep with somebody. You are not going anything wrong. I'll probably get ripped to shreds by some posters for saying this, but I think it is cruel to not have sex with your partner, especially without explanation, if you know that it hurts the person and you are in a committed relationship with them where they were led to expect that sex would be happening relatively frequently. And I say this as someone who in the past sexually deactivated on a previous partner and felt repelled by him myself, not someone who doesn't understand what that feels like. I know what it feels like to be on either side of this situation. The only things that lessen the cruelty in my eyes are if you are working hard on fixing the problem and communicating well (but kindly–it's probably not needed or helpful to be so honest that you tell the person you feel disgusted by them) with your partner about it. It is perfectly reasonable for someone to assume that sex would be a regular part of a romantic relationship, especially if it was at the beginning. And it's definitely cruel to make self-described "cruel remarks" to fend off one's partner's advances. Please do not go back to that therapist! That is horrible, horrible advice. Please never engage intimately unless you truly want to. Don't do that to yourself. That can only make things worse. Just because the therapist's idea didn't work for you doesn't make it a horrible idea for everyone, worthy of firing the therapist over. It can actually work for some people. It often helps for me, when I am feeling some kind of deactivation, to have sex anyway. About 25% of men and 75% of women don't even get spontaneously horny and instead have "responsive" desire, where once they start actually having foreplay/sex they will start to get turned on. If they don't even allow themselves to get to the point of having any foreplay/sex they won't get in the mood. Feeling repelled by the idea of having sex with your partner who you love and rationally know you are attracted to is a form of anxiety, and a proven way to treat anxiety is to slowly expose yourself to the trigger until your subconscious realizes that that thing is not a threat. Completely avoiding the trigger worsens the fear. The therapist isn't necessarily awful. |
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Post by hannah99 on Oct 15, 2019 8:57:48 GMT
Forcing yourself to do something sexual is a horrible idea. Where does consent come in? I had a partner who I stopped wanting to be intimate with and sometimes forced myself to be intimate with and it felt like abuse. He also used to say if we didn't start sleeping together we had to break up and that it wasn't fair on him. Unless you have enthusiastic consent from a sexual partner then you shouldn't be engaging in sexual activity.
I wonder, are you in America? I think America and the UK have different ideas about consent.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 12:13:23 GMT
Speaking of calm conversations between incompatible people...
freeze is the energy of avoidance, and it can be there and undetectable to someone not trained to see it's nuance. Freeze is not just deer in the headlights, numbness, dissociation. Freeze is also acquiescing , calmness, zen.
If you are dealing with someone in freeze you may not know it. Not every important reaction is extreme.
An avoidant in freeze will stay when going would be good, also.
Don't think that calm conversations between incompatible people mean it was accepted internally by both parties. The reality shows up in the big picture. Like what is going on in this thread.
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 15, 2019 16:13:54 GMT
Forcing yourself to do something sexual is a horrible idea. Where does consent come in? I had a partner who I stopped wanting to be intimate with and sometimes forced myself to be intimate with and it felt like abuse. He also used to say if we didn't start sleeping together we had to break up and that it wasn't fair on him. Unless you have enthusiastic consent from a sexual partner then you shouldn't be engaging in sexual activity. I wonder, are you in America? I think America and the UK have different ideas about consent. I'm not from the US. To me, consent simply means agreeing to do something. You can choose to agree to do something without it being something you were immediately and naturally excited to do, or without being turned or or loving every moment of it. It is not horrible to choose to do something as a gift to your partner or as a way to try to work on breaking down your own psychological barriers. Most people I know who are in successful happy long-term relationships say that they at least sometimes have sex when they are "not in the mood." Not being in the mood is not the same as feeling consistently and strongly repulsed of course, when you feel repulsed you may need to go much more slowly and to pair it with therapy and good communication. If someone feels horrible and gets worse due to attempting to engage in sexual activity with their partner who they love, then they have probably missed a few steps. I can only assume that dve1991 's therapist probably didn't just tell him, "Do whatever your partner wants sexually even when it makes you feel terrible," but likely something more like, "If you consciously try to relax and proceed a bit out of your comfort zone with sexual activity, your discomfort may eventually lessen." Systematic desensitization IS a proven effective therapy. It shouldn't begin with right away forcing yourself to do something that is unbearably anxiety inducing to you and feels traumatic. It is absolutely legitimate for someone to not want to be in a sexless relationship. It is not awful for someone to say that they can't continue a relationship because you stopped having sex with them. They are simply openly communicating that the relationship is not meeting their needs, not trying to force themselves on you. They should not have to stay in a relationship that is hurting them and not meeting their needs. They are entitled to a partner who cares about meeting their needs and wants to work on it together if they develop an issue where they become disinterested in sex. No one is forcing you to be that partner, but it is fair to either put effort into work on it or let them go if you aren't willing to. I don't mean to be insensitive, because I don't recall what your ex was like, maybe he was a total asshole, I am just saying that people aren't obligated to stay in a relationship that no longer meets their needs and telling you that the relationship is not meeting their needs is not a demonstration that they don't care about your consent. Imagine it were any other need, like, "I need a partner who wants to spend time with me, I need to see you at least once a week or I don't think I can continue this relationship." You can still choose whether you want to do that or not or course, but if you don't want to see your partner that often then it's fair for them to leave, right? |
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Post by hannah99 on Oct 17, 2019 21:12:58 GMT
I disagree with you entirely but it's clear we have different concepts of consent and different experiences around this topic, so I'd rather not continue the discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2019 23:44:57 GMT
I am of the mind that I make myself available to my partner, and get into the mood, even if right now I didn't feel like doing anything. That's consent because I agree to engaging in sex even if right now, i wasn't in the mood - but I might get into the mood when things get going. If I didn't want to AT ALL, i wouldn't engage in any play. I am not PRESSURED into trying, I want to make myself available to my partner; HE does NOT ask me to try. To me, that's consent - i have choice around whether I want to try, indulge, engage, or just have sex straight up. Not being in the mood = not consent is a binary and unyielding bar that makes sex as an intimate form of interaction difficult. not being the mood + not willing to try = not consent, I think is what happyidiot is saying, and I agree. sometimes I try, sometimes my partner tries; there're times where after trying one or both of us don't feel like more, then we just stop. that said, it came with the presumption that I am not repulsed by my partner, and that I see sex as a way of engaging and learning about him/us, so there is no pressure around trying.
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 18, 2019 0:17:11 GMT
I am of the mind that I make myself available to my partner, and get into the mood, even if right now I didn't feel like doing anything. That's consent because I agree to engaging in sex even if right now, i wasn't in the mood - but I might get into the mood when things get going. If I didn't want to AT ALL, i wouldn't engage in any play. I am not PRESSURED into trying, I want to make myself available to my partner; HE does NOT ask me to try. To me, that's consent - i have choice around whether I want to try, indulge, engage, or just have sex straight up. Not being in the mood = not consent is a binary and unyielding bar that makes sex as an intimate form of interaction difficult. not being the mood + not willing to try = not consent, I think is what happyidiot is saying, and I agree. sometimes I try, sometimes my partner tries; there're times where after trying one or both of us don't feel like more, then we just stop. that said, it came with the presumption that I am not repulsed by my partner, and that I see sex as a way of engaging and learning about him/us, so there is no pressure around trying. @shiningstar - I agree- it’s a willingness to try...and in that trying desire may increase. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2019 0:42:32 GMT
I guess I won't surprise anyone when I say, just shoot me. If I found myself in such an incompatible situation with very different levels of desire or frequency or blah blah blah and talk of cruelty and having to constantly negotiate with all this unhappiness and what appears to me to be negativity, seriously just shoot me I'm done.
I personally don't think it has to be so difficult. But, like O said, I'm sure no one is surprised to hear that from me.
I've got a healthy sex drive and also need for physical/emotional space and could not possibly tolerate all the misery and complication generated in the situations described here.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2019 0:45:30 GMT
I guess I won't surprise anyone when I say, just shoot me. If I found myself in such an incompatible situation with very different levels of desire or frequency or blah blah blah and talk of cruelty and having to constantly negotiate with all this unhappiness and what appears to me to be negativity, seriously just shoot me I'm done. I personally don't think it has to be so difficult. But, like O said, I'm sure no one is surprised to hear that from me. I've got a healthy sex drive and also need for physical/emotional space and could not possibly tolerate all the misery and complication generated in the situations described here. i didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if I'm just misspeaking generally to the thread. My view was more of just my attitude towards sex in a relationship, so this is more out of curiousity. Let's say I want sex 3x a week, but on even days. my partner also wants sex 3x a week, but on odd days. How do you then sync this?? on days either of us want sex, the other doesn't; this is not a mismatch of libidos, but a mismatch of days you both want sex on. so how do you approach this then? if consent is simply both saying yes, then we'll never have a compatible situation. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2019 0:56:47 GMT
I just think if it's that big of a struggle sex isn't the issue. something else is. Just my personal opinion. Fixing sex isn't the answer.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2019 1:06:23 GMT
I'm just saying, if I really like someone I'm super easy to get along with around sex one way or the other. I love sex a lot, and lots of it; but that has a natural ebb and flow through the month. But I'll work with someone and not let anything be a big deal, I guess I'm just relaxed about it. I simply have never experienced all this that I'm seeing described. Of course if I'm that unhappy or the other person is, Ill try some accommodating and flexibility but if it's really just that hard I'd be disinclined to get into a power struggle or resentment about it.
I'm saying- I just can't imagine all this. Not saying I have anyone's answers. It's not a problem I've encountered.
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