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Post by happyidiot on Oct 11, 2019 2:42:47 GMT
I've read a number of stories from bitter straight men, complaining that their wives "tricked" them by acting a certain way early on in the relationship: fun, interested in sex, taking care of herself, complimentary, etc, only to have that wither, seemingly the day they got married. Now she's putting in little effort and it's "Not tonight honey, I have a headache" most nights of the week, and they feel deceived, like they actually assume these women put on an act in the beginning on purpose in order to "trap" them. That may be bullshit, but I do think I have a tiny bit of empathy in that I can develop expectations based on someone's behavior at the beginning and then feel upset or unworthy or confused, or even mad, when that changes, thinking, "This is not what I signed up for!" I certainly never think someone does it on purpose, but I do often wonder if many people (men) just like the thrill of the chase, and once they know they have you it turns them off. For me, it is like a feeling of grief when someone turns out to not be what you thought they were.
Does anyone else relate to this? Is it just us FAs and APs who wish for the honeymoon to continue? Do secure people actually just feel fine and dandy with their partner gradually seeming less excited about them, having less sex with them, spending less time with them, seemingly taking them for granted, like that's just what inevitably happens and it's unrealistic to expect someone to remain smitten with you and treat you consistently?
Anyone else triggered by any inconsistency or changes to a relationship?
I'm posting in this FA section because I am FA, one who tends to often have more of a problem with my anxious side when I've really "caught feelings" for someone (my avoidant side usually seems less painful), but this could also apply to people who love FAs, since unaware FAs can certainly be inconsistent. I don't actually know my current boyfriend's attachment style. Something not totally secure, but also not wildly insecure.
I think I've been so traumatized by extreme inconsistency, like in the past I've dated a number of FAs and DAs, and the FAs in particular traumatized me by suddenly dumping me or ghosting me just when I'd fallen in love with them, so now any hint of inconsistency or someone pulling away sets off alarm bells in my chest.
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Post by serenity on Oct 11, 2019 7:37:06 GMT
Does anyone else relate to this? Is it just us FAs and APs who wish for the honeymoon to continue? Do secure people actually just feel fine and dandy with their partner gradually seeming less excited about them, having less sex with them, spending less time with them, seemingly taking them for granted, like that's just what inevitably happens and it's unrealistic to expect someone to remain smitten with you and treat you consistently? Anyone else triggered by any inconsistency or changes to a relationship? I think I'd feel triggered by a lot of that happyidiot for sure. Especially if you've felt used just for the `honeymoon high' part of a relationship, then suddenly dumped or faded on before. What sort of contact are you experiencing atm? Has that significantly reduced at all? |
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Post by persephone on Oct 11, 2019 10:40:18 GMT
I've read a number of stories from bitter straight men, complaining that their wives "tricked" them by acting a certain way early on in the relationship: fun, interested in sex, taking care of herself, complimentary, etc, only to have that wither, seemingly the day they got married. Now she's putting in little effort and it's "Not tonight honey, I have a headache" most nights of the week, and they feel deceived, like they actually assume these women put on an act in the beginning on purpose in order to "trap" them. That may be bullshit, but I do think I have a tiny bit of empathy in that I can develop expectations based on someone's behavior at the beginning and then feel upset or unworthy or confused, or even mad, when that changes, thinking, "This is not what I signed up for!" I certainly never think someone does it on purpose, but I do often wonder if many people (men) just like the thrill of the chase, and once they know they have you it turns them off. For me, it is like a feeling of grief when someone turns out to not be what you thought they were. The difference is those cases are a gradual process. Libido goes down because of age, kids, etc. Does anyone else relate to this? Is it just us FAs and APs who wish for the honeymoon to continue? I’m sure a lot of people want the honeymoon period aka limerence to continue. But it seems like when that period ended, and commitment came into the table, my ex FA freaked out and started to subconsciously distance himself. I say subconsciously because he’d still be very supportive of me, dedicated a lot of time to me, etc, but at the same time, started getting reality distortions about how I was planning to leave him. I only found out about the reality distortion when he was breaking up with me. As an AP, I had the opposite effect. I thought the honeymoon period had ended because he was distancing himself, and there was nothing to worry about. Do secure people actually just feel fine and dandy with their partner gradually seeming less excited about them, having less sex with them, spending less time with them, seemingly taking them for granted, like that's just what inevitably happens and it's unrealistic to expect someone to remain smitten with you and treat you consistently? It seems like Secures can behave in one of two ways: either become AP to distancing, or leave their Avoidant partners. Anyone else triggered by any inconsistency or changes to a relationship? Yep, this is a natural reaction from everybody, regardless of attachment type. I'm posting in this FA section because I am FA, one who tends to often have more of a problem with my anxious side when I've really "caught feelings" for someone (my avoidant side usually seems less painful), but this could also apply to people who love FAs, since unaware FAs can certainly be inconsistent. I don't actually know my current boyfriend's attachment style. Something not totally secure, but also not wildly insecure. Yes, the frightening part is unaware Avoidants don’t fully think the inconsistency is because of their internal thoughts, but because they haven’t found “the one.” I think I've been so traumatized by extreme inconsistency, like in the past I've dated a number of FAs and DAs, and the FAs in particular traumatized me by suddenly dumping me or ghosting me just when I'd fallen in love with them, so now any hint of inconsistency or someone pulling away sets off alarm bells in my chest. I’m sorry to hear that, I’m going through the exact same thing. Here is what I have learned: 1. Practice thinking like a Secure - “I am worthy of love, and other people are also worthy of love.” 2. Mirroring (written by another forum commenter, from her therapist) — on dates, it your partner is pulling away, do the same. You will break up soon, but it will save you the trouble of breaking up after you’ve fallen in love. 3. If they talk a huge lot about their feelings in the early dates, they are AP. If they don’t talk about feelings, but stick to interests like movies or music, and shirk away when you ask about feelings, they are FA/ DA. If they can happily talk about both, they are Secure. Taken from therapist Craig Kenneth’s YouTube video. 4. Be careful of “charming” people that set off a lot of sparks. Jeb’s “Avoidant” book actually mentions this: “In a series of experiments, the team discovered that avoidants—despite the fact that they don’t want emotional connection—actually made lots of eye contact and used touch more than securely attached people to seem more appealing in a dating situation. Avoidants use humor in dating situations to create a sense of sharing and detract from their essential aloofness.”5. Psychiatrist Amir Levine wrote in his book “Attached” that you should define your own needs relatively early in a relationship, so that you can set the tone, and weed out people who can’t give you what you want. 6. My ex FA would always “withdraw” after an intimate moment. I thought he was just shy or tired. Nope. That’s going to be the biggest red flag warning I’m going to carry for the rest of my life. |
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Post by 8675309 on Oct 11, 2019 12:12:51 GMT
Yes, secures will be bothered by the changes. Secure does not make you invincible to relationship changes, inconsistent behavior, etc. We understand our needs though and can express it. Doesnt make all relationships work either. Sometimes we just don't fit with people. Difference with us is we will address it where an avoidant may distance/run and an AP would lash out/chase. This is where the avoidant will blame the partner when its actually them(not saying its never a bad partner but hope you get the point) or the AP doesnt realize they are needy and pushing the person away. Or the AP wont address things in fear of them leaving where a secure will call them out. And avoidants just avoid everything. Id say more secures would swing a bit anxious from inconsistencies. I think thats a more natural reaction to something like this. My FA swung me that way and I test in the less than 5% range for anxiousness. This type of thing can trigger anyone, our attachment is how one reacts to these things. The only consistent thing with my FA was his inconsistency. I was always open with him and addressed things even if he ran. I really hope all of you working towards secures know it doesn't make everything perfect or relationships work or you'll never feel anxious again or you'll never want to feel like avoiding things. Getting to secure is going to allow you to express needs more clearly, understand what is making you triggered, self sooth faster, cut toxic relations faster, move on, etc.
To add any hint of inconsistency should set off bells as secures are not inconsistent.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 11, 2019 17:28:08 GMT
3. If they talk a huge lot about their feelings in the early dates, they are AP. If they don’t talk about feelings, but stick to interests like movies or music, and shirk away when you ask about feelings, they are FA/ DA. If they can happily talk about both, they are Secure. Taken from therapist Craig Kenneth’s YouTube video. I agree with everything you said except this (which aren't your own words anyway). Someone who talks about feelings a lot at the beginning can also be an FA who isn't triggered by the newly developing relationship yet. Excessive sharing at that stage can be both a weak boundary issue as well as fishing for validation. Both AP and FA will do that, at least until the FA is more sure of you sticking around and then feels engulfment at the idea. Also, when you're getting to know each other the feelings aren't fully developed so are more surface level or even impulsive, so they're not so scary to discuss at that stage. I've dated FAs that do either or, overshare feelings at the beginning then panic or are freaked out by sharing anything internal right from the start. I think it relates to the spectrum different FAs can still be in regards to leaning more anxious or avoidant plus how the new partner triggers them with their own attachment style. happyidiot, the difference between what you're saying about the honeymoon period limerance being a normal and secure thing and it being an insecure thing is when it happens with security, it's gradual (as 8675309 said) and comes with communication and deepening intimacy in other longer-term relationship ways. It's not a sudden huge change that feels like inconsistency or being taken for granted. If it's a mature progression, no one should feel tricked or so wanting because something feels suddenly "taken away" and that maybe even you've done something to cause it. Anyone is going to feel triggered by perceived inconsistency that is a sudden deep change without enough communication to understand why it's happening and what it means to that person. I know you struggle with working through your FA and accompanying tendencies. What's your gut say here? Immediate first thought only, drown out the layers of noise. Do you feel blind-sided by a sudden behavioral shift in your boyfriend because he's not communicating (or he's not communicating well ie words and actions don't align), or are you trying to tell yourself a negative narrative to create distance when your boyfriend has actually been consistent and stable? (Or both?) |
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 15, 2019 0:35:38 GMT
I think I'd feel triggered by a lot of that happyidiot for sure. Especially if you've felt used just for the `honeymoon high' part of a relationship, then suddenly dumped or faded on before. What sort of contact are you experiencing atm? Has that significantly reduced at all? Yeah, it brings up old wounds and fears. Contact has reduced and the quality of it has gone downhill. It hurts to feel lonely and invisible when someone is with you. After I made this post we talked more about it, because he could tell it was hurting me, and he told me about some stressors in his life, which could be a big part of it, but that stuff has no end in sight, so that's scary. |
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 15, 2019 0:45:38 GMT
Yes, I definitely feel duped by my ex DA. He always proclaims how honest he is, but I felt deceived bc he wanted to marry me, he finally found “the one,” wanted me by his side forever etc but then he ran away after a handful of conflicts. It feels like a huge betrayal and bait and switch.
I texted some of those thoughts to him a couple weeks during the text exchange where he told me to move on. He responded I gave him “low shots,” and even though I shouldn’t have sent those thoughts in a text, it really is how I feel. I believed him when he told me those things and I have no doubt he meant them at the time or he never would’ve said them, but his change of feelings seemed to come so easily to him. And having that kind of love and devotion for the first time and losing it? So painful
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Post by mrob on Oct 15, 2019 1:10:49 GMT
So, we’re back to this. Bait and switch. Maliciousness, that everything is a conscious willing act or non action. Not a person with an attachment wound acting in type. Just as Anxious can’t let go, the opposite is true of avoidants.
I’m sorry, this has to be said. I can have boundaries too. I spent my life with no deal breakers putting up with behaviour that appalled me, and it won’t be happening again. With some people, reasoning doesn’t work and silence is the only option left.
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 15, 2019 1:26:06 GMT
So, we’re back to this. Bait and switch. Maliciousness, that everything is a conscious willing act or non action. Not a person with an attachment wound acting in type. Just as Anxious can’t let go, the opposite is true of avoidants. I’m sorry, this has to be said. I can have boundaries too. I spent my life with no deal breakers putting up with behaviour that appalled me, and it won’t be happening again. With some people, reasoning doesn’t work and silence is the only option left. - Well, I understand my ex DA obviously has issues and that’s why he runs and stonewalls. However, the way he protects himself is still hell for me as someone who loves him and wants relationship with him. I felt bait and switch bc he pursued me hard, said I better not leave him and that I was stuck with him “forever.” He said this every single day. I completely believed him. So when he folded and left it knocked the wind out of me bc I believed he wouldn’t leave and I felt if we both chose to stay, there’s no issue we couldn’t work through. I love him deeply and feel for his pain, I really do and I know he doesn’t mean to hurt me, but he does hurt me. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 15, 2019 1:27:36 GMT
Hey mrob. I appreciate you tons.
I think calling a spade a spade is not the same as assuming conscious intent, do you?
If someone presents as wanting to start a romantic relationship, talks about wanting marriage, acts consistently present and in love for months then suddenly switches to `I don't do relationships'. It seems fair enough to call it bait and switch. It doesn't matter if the behaviour was calculated in intricate detail (though i would call that malicious) or entirely a reflex (non malicious), the mechanism of bait and switch is still what it is. It still causes significant harm and distress to good people.
If someone has the boundary of not wanting relationships, its absolutely fair. Misleading people is what breaks hearts and causes significant distress.
(bear in mind I'm going through a rough breakup and i have to work with the guy, so I'm being especially strong minded about this atm)
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 15, 2019 1:33:34 GMT
I think it comes down to hurting people hurt people. Intentional? No Hurtful? Yep
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 15, 2019 1:37:37 GMT
Hey mrob. I appreciate you tons. I think calling a spade a spade is not the same as assuming conscious intent, do you? If someone presents as wanting to start a romantic relationship, talks about wanting marriage, acts consistently present and in love for months then suddenly switches to `I don't do relationships'. It seems fair enough to call it bait and switch. If someone has the boundary of not wanting relationships, its absolutely fair. Misleading people is what breaks hearts and causes significant distress. (bear in mind I'm going through a rough breakup and i have to work with the guy, so I'm being especially strong minded about this atm) - That’s why as I start dipping my toe in the dating pool again- knowing I have issues to work on and knowing I still carry my ex DA in my heart, I’m going to be very careful to present myself as casual dating a few times a month. No more. If they don’t accept that, they can choose to not date me, but I’ll be clear and upfront this is the place I’m at in my life right now. I’ll go out with you three times a month but no deeper. No promises. Certainly no “I love you.” |
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Post by serenity on Oct 15, 2019 1:41:09 GMT
That seems ethical to me faith. And I would imagine a lot of people would be interested in having company and getting to know new people without any misleading involved. (i know i would)
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 15, 2019 1:42:38 GMT
The difference is those cases are a gradual process. Libido goes down because of age, kids, etc. This hasn't been sudden, but also not over the period of years. It's confusing because I've heard people say that things changing is just the honeymoon period or "new relationship energy" ending and unavoidable. I make a huge effort during the early part of a relationship to not say anything I'm not going to follow through on and to try to be consistent in showing ongoing love, appreciation, affection, compliments, sexual responsiveness, etc, as time goes on, and I don't need a surge of hormones to maintain those things, just care and effort, so it frustrates and disappoints me when I perceive that other people just say/do all sorts of shit they don't stick to when excited about someone new. A really common one is making plans for the future that they don't stick to, and at least my boyfriend hasn't been doing that, aside from maybe having talked about a trip that he later realized we can't afford, which is understandable. But another situation is that when someone behaves a certain way towards me and meets certain needs, I start to expect that will continue. I invested in and committed to this relationship based on the assumption that certain things would continue the way they had been. How was he distancing himself? And what made him worry you were planning to break up with him? I don't know, my secure exes (one I was with for a long time, one I was with for a short time and am not sure I should even really call an "ex" per se) when I was being avoidant and deactivating just remained secure, they didn't break up with me or become very anxious. I am a bit unusual though, with the one I was with for a long time I communicated a lot about what was going on with me and it was just as upsetting for me as it was for him. I am not that stereotypical severe FA person who will just ghost someone or shut them out or stop having sex with them while blaming it on them. I talk about things. So maybe I am less triggering. I agree with some of these! But I tried the mirroring thing and that went very badly, he thought I was trying to punish him and give him "a taste of his own medicine." I've also read elsewhere that you should model the behavior you want to see and maybe the other person will start mirroring you. I think the key is probably to just remain consistent and secure yourself and not respond to someone pulling away by anxiously pursuing them. But not withdrawing and closing yourself up just because the other person is doing that. I agree with alexandra that how someone acts early on can sometimes be misleading, because they are not yet triggered. I'm sure most people would peg me as secure on the first few dates. FAs can also act sometimes like APs at the beginning, I had one tell me he loved me close to the first date, only to go on to ghost me for months later on. Avoidants are often hilarious! The funniest guys I've ever known are very avoidant. |
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 15, 2019 1:56:10 GMT
So, we’re back to this. Bait and switch. Maliciousness, that everything is a conscious willing act or non action. Not a person with an attachment wound acting in type. Just as Anxious can’t let go, the opposite is true of avoidants. I’m sorry, this has to be said. I can have boundaries too. I spent my life with no deal breakers putting up with behaviour that appalled me, and it won’t be happening again. With some people, reasoning doesn’t work and silence is the only option left. - Well, I understand my ex DA obviously has issues and that’s why he runs and stonewalls. However, the way he protects himself is still hell for me as someone who loves him and wants relationship with him. I felt bait and switch bc he pursued me hard, said I better not leave him and that I was stuck with him “forever.” He said this every single day. I completely believed him. So when he folded and left it knocked the wind out of me bc I believed he wouldn’t leave and I felt if we both chose to stay, there’s no issue we couldn’t work through. I love him deeply and feel for his pain, I really do and I know he doesn’t mean to hurt me, but he does hurt me. I think the problem is that the term "bait and switch" implies intent, and that's clearly how mrob took it. Using that kind of term can sound like you meant that you think the person did it intentionally, like how those men I described in my original post thought their wives acted a certain way purposefully in order to lock them into marriage. Very few people hurt or mislead others intentionally. But that doesn't make it not hurt. And it doesn't absolve them of responsibility for how they affect others. mrob I can sure relate to what you said about previously having no deal breakers and putting up with things you shouldn't have. Now I sometimes wonder if I am going too far in the other direction? Seeing something as a deal breaker when maybe it shouldn't be? I still have trouble knowing what my needs and boundaries are, and believing that someone exists who is capable of meeting those needs. |
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