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Post by anne12 on Oct 15, 2019 20:05:09 GMT
happyidiot Yes I posted something about Fa and AP somewhere - what they have to look out for. FA can usually go into relationships without noticing "danger signals" and they feel calm because they are used to overhearing warning signs, crossing their own boundaries, it is what they have been used to as children. So they can notise if they in a new relationship feels a bit uneasy/anxious, as this can be a good sign and "a go" because it is unfamiliar. Unsafty = familiar, Safety = unfamiliar. (By unsafty I mean that you can be attracted to people who exceeds your limits, underdog/overdog dynamics, other insecures ect.) For the ap/the ap part of your attatchmentstyle you can notise if you are in doubt about a relationship. Being in doubt is not nessarily a bad sign for ap's. This can mean a go, as the typical ap can end a relationship when love becomes available. They often confuses longing with love. If they do not long, they do not love. But it is when love becomes available, they can experience their fear of abandonment/their old wound, because they are expecting the other shoe to drop/that something bad will happen, when love is available. Their doubt is a defence mecanism from experiencing love/recieving loving and caring behaviour. To me it sounds that you and your boyfriend are in the 4th and the 5th lovefase. You could be in the end of the crushing fase/ honeymoon fase and your boyfriend could be moving on to the next love fase. IT is common that one person moves on faster than the other person. The crushing phase can last from 2 months up till 1 year. Then the bonding attatchment hormone oxytocin kicks in. (Helen Fisher) If you are still high on the crushing chemicals like dopamine and neuroaphrenalin you are not really precent in your relationship. It can be difficult so see things clearly and to think rational and be present - it is also difficult to see your partner, for who he really is. Therefore it is possible that it can feel like he suddenly pulls back, because you were not really precent to see it ? The honeymoon/crushing fase is kind of like the symbiotic fase babies have with their mother. After the symbiotic fase the mother would try to let the baby explore on its own. In the adult relationship version of the symbiotic fase, you are Melting together, having a lot of sex, wants to spend a lot of time together, touching and cuddling a lot, very attuned to eachother ect. Around 1 - 2 years in your attatchment kicks in and your attatchment style struggles can show up in the relationship. When your partner is being persieved as permanent. The chok from your previous relationships can also get stuck in your nerveussystem. When you as a person with some desorganised attatchment style are in a more "quiet and calm" relationship, then there is more room for the trauma whirlwind to make noise and you can start to act a little crazy. (SE/attach therapy can be helpfull and different self/co regulation exercises) Because of your attatchment styles you can see things through a filter. Your filter is different from other people's and your boyfriends filter. If he is stressed out, then he can be in a kind of survival. mode. Then there is not the same kind of room for love and sex ect. Unless he uses sex as a go to stress release. You wrote that you were seeing eachother almost every day and that you were having sex twice a day or something like that. I do not know how often you are seeing eachother now and how often you are seeing eachother now. Regulate - pause - do a reality check can be a good thing...
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 15, 2019 20:57:27 GMT
happyidiot - One thing I learned when I start dating again is first and foremost to guard my heart. I will take things very slowly with any guy I like so I can get to know him before becoming overly attached. Being careful will also decrease the chance I’ll make him the center of my world- I’ll keep to my routine and fit him in rather than the other way around. This loss has definitely taught me to trust less and tread lightly. I feel I won’t be emotionally ready to move on with someone else for a long time. As an FA, can I say that that is what I want anyway? I'd rather you had a life and I fit in around you. To me, that's healthy. mrob - Yeah, I think it’s healthier to keep regular routine and tread lightly, esp knowing I’m AP with AP tendencies to get all caught up |
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Post by 8675309 on Oct 16, 2019 0:29:43 GMT
Secures will tell you they need space to process things etc, they wont just distance themselves. In general we dont need that kinds of space after a heavy talk as we can still process without needing to run. For me personally dating my secures, I never had doubts, I never wondered if Id hear from them, I never worried about not getting a reply, they never distanced, I didn't have to 'mirror', etc, etc. It just flowed naturally. Even though we didnt end up working there was no doubts in the aspect he was there and had my back.
I never experienced these doubts, etc until my FA came in my life. He was my first avoidant.
I'm not sure how good a test that (the presence of doubts and worries about the person withdrawing etc) is to assess if someone is secure for an insecure person though, because we can still be triggered even by secure or somewhat secure people. Once you have been "burnt" by someone ghosting or dumping you out of nowhere or withdrawing all affection etc, it becomes increasing likely that you will start looking for signs that that is about to happen with future partners. And really, someone can be somewhat insecure and still be a good partner if they put in enough effort (I'm not secure myself!), and a secure person isn't guaranteed to be a great partner who never leaves you, so I guess I should probably quit trying to figure out what percentage avoidant my boyfriend is and trying to predict the future and just look at his actions.
Secures dont withdraw. We dont need to, we are not triggered like insecure attached are. Ive been burnt and ghosted on before FA, they were guys just not into me. Sometimes its just that, they are not into you. They dont circle like an avoidant will, they just never come back. Just a crap person that can just say it and wants to coward out by ghosting.
I still dont have these doubts even after being burned.
If someone withdraws and doesnt let you know what up, thats a big red flag. Period.
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 17, 2019 0:54:23 GMT
happyidiot Yes I posted something about Fa and AP somewhere - what they have to look out for. FA can usually go into relationships without noticing "danger signals" and they feel calm because they are used to overhearing warning signs, crossing their own boundaries, it is what they have been used to as children. So they can notise if they in a new relationship feels a bit uneasy/anxious, as this can be a good sign and "a go" because it is unfamiliar. Unsafty = familiar, Safety = unfamiliar. (By unsafty I mean that you can be attracted to people who exceeds your limits, underdog/overdog dynamics, other insecures ect.) For the ap/the ap part of your attatchmentstyle you can notise if you are in doubt about a relationship. Being in doubt is not nessarily a bad sign for ap's. This can mean a go, as the typical ap can end a relationship when love becomes available. They often confuses longing with love. If they do not long, they do not love. But it is when love becomes available, they can experience their fear of abandonment/their old wound, because they are expecting the other shoe to drop/that something bad will happen, when love is available. Their doubt is a defence mecanism from experiencing love/recieving loving and caring behaviour. To me it sounds that you and your boyfriend are in the 4th and the 5th lovefase. You could be in the end of the crushing case/ honeymoonfase and your boyfriend could be moving on to the next love fase. IT is common that one person moves on faster than the other person. The crushing case can last from 2 months up till 1 year. Then the bonding attatchment hormone oxytocin kicks in. (Helen Fisher) If you are still high on the crushing chemicals like dopamine and neuroaphrenalin you are not really precent in your relationship. It can be difficult so see things clearly and to think rational - it is also difficult to see your partner, for who he really is. Therefore it is possible that it can feel like he suddenly pulls back, because you were not really precent to see it ? The honeymoon/crushing fase is like the symbiotic fase babies have with their mother. Melting together, having a lot of sex, wants to spend a lot of time together, touching and cuddling a lot, very attuned to eachother ect. Around 1 - 2 years in your attatchment kicks in and your attatchment style struggles can show up in the relationship. When your partner is being persieved as permanent. The chock from your previous relationships can also get stuck in your nerveussystem. When you as a person with some desorganised attatchment style are in a more "quiet and calm" relationship, then there is more room for the trauma whirlwind to make noise and you can start to act a little crazy. (SE/attach therapy can be helpfull and different self/co regulation exercises) Because of your attatchment styles you can see things through a filter. Your filter is different from other people's and your boyfriends filter. If he is stressed out, then he can be in a kind of survival. mode. Thenis not the same kind of room for love and sex ect. Unless he uses sex as a go to stress release. You wrote that you were seeing eachother almost every day and that you were having sex twice a day or something like that. I do not know how often you are seeing eachother now and how often you are seeing eachother now. Regulate - pause - do a reality check can be a good thing... Insightful post as always, anne12 . Thank you. I don't think I'm still in the honeymoon phase, and I'm definitely not at all high on new relationship dopamine, but I think our responses to exiting the honeymoon phase have been different. And yes I think maybe he exited the honeymoon stage a bit before me, which added to my distress and confusion, but I'm not still in it. I feel like perhaps we are already in the disillusionment stage? I think we are going through relationship stages more quickly than average because we moved so fast and spent so much time together. Where we are at feels like where my past relationships were at after a much longer amount of time. My response to us leaving the honeymoon period has been that I still want to do the same things even though I'm not high on hormones anymore, and I find things changing to be alarming. I would still like to have lots of sex, go on fun dates and trips, cuddle a lot, make a point of saying lots of loving things to each other and showing gratitude for each other, be spontaneous, randomly stop to kiss in public, have intense conversations, stare into each other's eyes, be present with each other, remain curious about each other and keep getting to know each other better. I believe it's possible to keep the spark of a relationship alive if you nurture it and put effort into continuing to do these things. I believe it is imperative that you not take each other for granted in a relationship. I think that was something that killed my only other previous happy healthy relationship. I try to tell my boyfriend something I am grateful for about him every day. I try to compliment his appearance and mind/efforts every day. The last time I received a compliment from him was 6 weeks ago, when he said I was "hot." Maybe he just thinks it goes without saying now, but the fact that he USED TO tell me things he liked about me and about our relationship and tell me I was so beautiful just makes me worry that he doesn't think those things anymore. Recently we have spent a lot less time together because of legitimate external factors, and we have had sex 5 times in the last 2 months. But we have still had plenty of times where we were together where no sex happened and he seemed to actively avoid anything that could lead to sex, and it's gotten much worse recently. Yes you might be right that his stress is consuming him, leaving little space for love/romance and sex. He appears to me to fear sex much of the time these days. Maybe pulling away quickly from hugs and trying not to do things that lead to sex could be trying to avoid oxytocin because it makes him feel unsafe when stressed? Or it feels risky to relax and do something that would distract him from his constant worrying and get him back into his body? It is hard for me to know if this pulling away is a relatively "normal" male reaction to stress, that can improve with reducing the stressors and improving one's skills to cope with stress, or if it is a sign that he is avoidant and deactivating because stress is a trigger for him? |
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 17, 2019 1:56:16 GMT
Secures dont withdraw. We dont need to, we are not triggered like insecure attached are. Ive been burnt and ghosted on before FA, they were guys just not into me. Sometimes its just that, they are not into you. They dont circle like an avoidant will, they just never come back. Just a crap person that can just say it and wants to coward out by ghosting.
I still dont have these doubts even after being burned.
If someone withdraws and doesnt let you know what up, thats a big red flag. Period.
Sure secures can withdraw. Secures can still get stressed, anxious or depressed, and for some people their way of coping with those things is to pull away from people that care about them. And secures can still feel unsure about a relationship or pull back in an effort to avoid leading someone on. My secure ex was often depressed and was not very good about talking about his depression or things that were stressing him out, like his financial situation. I don't think it's always that easy to tell the difference from a non-extreme avoidant and a secure man, in particular, since a lot of traditional masculine-energy men are not great about opening up about their emotions or handling stress. Once one of my secure best friends just kind of disappeared for a while. I found out that someone close to him had died. My response (as a woman) would probably be to tell my dearest friends and cry on their shoulders, but his response was to avoid talking to the people who were closest to him. I asked someone I know whose husband is secure how he reacts to stress, well with that particular guy he hasn't taken a test but we assume he is secure due to his behavior and the fact that he's been in a very happy healthy secure relationship for 15 years, and she said, "Not by talking to me about it or letting me hug him!" My boyfriend eventually let me know "what was up," talking to me about it just wasn't the 1st or 2nd thing on his list. And he's not doing anything as extreme as ghosting me. I don't think he's 100% secure and he has displayed AP behavior in the past, but the possibility that I am hypervigilant to signs of avoidance should not be thrown out the window. |
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 17, 2019 2:36:12 GMT
How was he distancing himself? And what made him worry you were planning to break up with him? He thought I was going to dump him because of something he took out of context that I said about my friend. I had a friend who I had known for years, but I noticed she would only contact me if she needed some big favor. I told my ex FA that I couldn’t be close friends with her anymore as she didn’t value me the same. He thought it meant I couldn’t be in a relationship with him as he was not as affectionate as I was towards him. This is very relatable for me, I am constantly worrying that things that my boyfriend says about friends or coworkers or exes or strangers means he is going to judge me or abandon me. What was his reaction to you telling him he was mistaken? No, it was my long-term boyfriend and we didn't break up over it. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 17, 2019 2:57:58 GMT
The honeymoon/crushing fase is like the symbiotic fase babies have with their mother. Melting together, having a lot of sex, wants to spend a lot of time together, touching and cuddling a lot, very attuned to eachother ect. Around 1 - 2 years in your attatchment kicks in and your attatchment style struggles can show up in the relationship. When your partner is being persieved as permanent. lolol. I just felt like telling the internet, I did not have lots of sex with my mother. |
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Post by anne12 on Oct 17, 2019 3:07:55 GMT
Moving too fast in a relationship can be a problem. You can read about the 7 lovephases in the dating thread. The bonding hormone oxytocin works differently in men than in women. Oxytocin lasts longer in the woman's system, than in the man's system. (Helen Fisher) Greg Barent says If a woman is too available, the man can feel that he is responsible for her, and then he can begin to see her as demanding, which can make him pull back a little. Do you think that you are too availible ? Can you leave your boyfriend alone for a while and go do something good by yourself ? Why do you have to compliment him ? Does he really need that ? Or is this your own need ? Does he need something else from you instead ? Did you ask him ? How can you be proactive in the situation that you are in now ? The AP can give to Recieve [ jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1045/addicts-partners-feelingsjebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1198/proactive-get-negativity-victim-roleI believe people cope differently with stress. Men have tunnelvision and the masculine often likes to cope with one thing at a time. Also men often do not like to share their problems and concerns in the same way woman do. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 17, 2019 3:17:01 GMT
I try to tell my boyfriend something I am grateful for about him every day. I try to compliment his appearance and mind/efforts every day. The last time I received a compliment from him was 6 weeks ago, when he said I was "hot." Maybe he just thinks it goes without saying now, but the fact that he USED TO tell me things he liked about me and about our relationship and tell me I was so beautiful just makes me worry that he doesn't think those things anymore. Recently we have spent a lot less time together because of legitimate external factors, and we have had sex 5 times in the last 2 months. But we have still had plenty of times where we were together where no sex happened and he seemed to actively avoid anything that could lead to sex, and it's gotten much worse recently. Yes you might be right that his stress is consuming him, leaving little space for love/romance and sex. He appears to me to fear sex much of the time these days. Maybe pulling away quickly from hugs and trying not to do things that lead to sex could be trying to avoid oxytocin because it makes him feel unsafe when stressed? Or it feels risky to relax and do something that would distract him from his constant worrying and get him back into his body? It is hard for me to know if this pulling away is a relatively "normal" male reaction to stress, that can improve with reducing the stressors and improving one's skills to cope with stress, or if it is a sign that he is avoidant and deactivating because stress is a trigger for him? I'm sorry you're going through this happyidiot; I wouldn't be able to tell from your description if your boyfriend is avoidant or not either. Some of that does sound like him re-evaluating things or even fading out after the honeymoon period, and that can be really distressing  On the other hand, reducing intensity and shifting back to more emotional independence after a relationship is established is normal too. A lot of people find they neglect things when they start an intense relationship, which disorientates them. He might be just catching up on things and finding his balance again? Do you have a strong friendship side of your relationship at all yet? What does he say about all this? |
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Post by persephone on Oct 17, 2019 6:30:04 GMT
He thought I was going to dump him because of something he took out of context that I said about my friend. I had a friend who I had known for years, but I noticed she would only contact me if she needed some big favor. I told my ex FA that I couldn’t be close friends with her anymore as she didn’t value me the same. He thought it meant I couldn’t be in a relationship with him as he was not as affectionate as I was towards him. This is very relatable for me, I am constantly worrying that things that my boyfriend says about friends or coworkers or exes or strangers means he is going to judge me or abandon me. What was his reaction to you telling him he was mistaken? He only told me on the night he decided to dump me. I told him no, it wasn’t true, and I revealed to him I actually gave up a lot to be with him. It was too late, his mind was already made up. He then told me: a) He thought about marriage and his gut told him I was not right for him, which was the same feeling that motivated him to change careers. b) he doesn’t love me (I asked if he ever loved anybody, he said no, as I was his only long-term relationship). The next day I saw him in person and he asked what I had given up — it was a good university degree. He asked if we should then “try again”, then cried into his hand in agony. I did not want him to be hurt, so I told him no, we should split up. He was guilty and said he never thought he could change the course of someone’s life like that. I am glad I found these boards. Lots of FAs here have said their intuition or gut instinct have tell them that their exes are the enemy and they must break up, only to discover a few months down the line that those feelings were unfounded. That’s great! You got rid of someone who probably would have a hard time being in love. No, it was my long-term boyfriend and we didn't break up over it. Well, that’s a strange reaction. What happened to “treat other the way you want to be treated”? |
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 18, 2019 7:45:21 GMT
Moving too fast in a relationship can be a problem. You can read about the 7 lovephases in the dating thread. The bonding hormone oxytocin works differently in men than in women. Oxytocin lasts longer in the woman's system, than in the man's system. (Helen Fisher) Greg Barent says If a woman is too available, the man can feel that he is responsible for her, and then he can begin to see her as demanding, which can make him pull back a little. Do you think that you are too availible ? Can you leave your boyfriend alone for a while and go do something good by yourself ? Why do you have to compliment him ? Does he really need that ? Or is this your own need ? Does he need something else from you instead ? Did you ask him ? How can you be proactive in the situation that you are in now ? jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1198/proactive-get-negativity-victim-roleI believe people cope differently with stress. Men have tunnelvision and the masculine often likes to cope with one thing at a time. Also men often do not like to share their problems and concerns in the same way woman do. Yes, I think I was too available. It's tough because a lot of the time lately I just really want to focus on my work and chores and reading and stuff, so it may seem like I don't have much going on or much of my own life, since I'm not going out with friends or doing hobbies as much, and I always prioritize him. I don't "have to" compliment him and tell him how much I appreciate him etc, I WANT to do those things. I like it. I'm not sure if he "needs" that specifically, but he did say he needs "words of affirmation." And he needs to know that he can make me happy. And he used to say it made him so happy to hear these kinds of things from me. I'm not doing it because I think he needs it or to try to get him to reciprocate, I mention that he used to do those things on his own too and rarely does anymore to explain that this change is worrisome to me and I don't know if it is just because the honeymoon is over that he stopped doing them. I'm still choosing to do them even though the honeymoon is over, and I think it is good for relationships to keep up those little thoughtful or loving things that one did at the beginning. I need those things. I need to hear that he still thinks I'm beautiful. Thanks for that link. Thanks to everyone else for your thoughtful replies, I'll reply to the rest once I have more time! |
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Post by anne12 on Oct 20, 2019 9:00:28 GMT
"...I need those things to hear that I am beautyfull ect..
We used to ...."
It is an AP trait to give to receive - it can be totally unconscious.
If you keep on giving it to him when he doesn't need it and you are not getting the same in return, you can end up being recentfull
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 20, 2019 10:55:23 GMT
Moving too fast in a relationship can be a problem. You can read about the 7 lovephases in the dating thread. The bonding hormone oxytocin works differently in men than in women. Oxytocin lasts longer in the woman's system, than in the man's system. (Helen Fisher) Greg Barent says If a woman is too available, the man can feel that he is responsible for her, and then he can begin to see her as demanding, which can make him pull back a little. Do you think that you are too availible ? Can you leave your boyfriend alone for a while and go do something good by yourself ? Why do you have to compliment him ? Does he really need that ? Or is this your own need ? Does he need something else from you instead ? Did you ask him ? How can you be proactive in the situation that you are in now ? jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/1198/proactive-get-negativity-victim-roleI believe people cope differently with stress. Men have tunnelvision and the masculine often likes to cope with one thing at a time. Also men often do not like to share their problems and concerns in the same way woman do. Yes, I think I was too available. It's tough because a lot of the time lately I just really want to focus on my work and chores and reading and stuff, so it may seem like I don't have much going on or much of my own life, since I'm not going out with friends or doing hobbies as much, and I always prioritize him. I don't "have to" compliment him and tell him how much I appreciate him etc, I WANT to do those things. I like it. I'm not sure if he "needs" that specifically, but he did say he needs "words of affirmation." And he needs to know that he can make me happy. And he used to say it made him so happy to hear these kinds of things from me. I'm not doing it because I think he needs it or to try to get him to reciprocate, I mention that he used to do those things on his own too and rarely does anymore to explain that this change is worrisome to me and I don't know if it is just because the honeymoon is over that he stopped doing them. I'm still choosing to do them even though the honeymoon is over, and I think it is good for relationships to keep up those little thoughtful or loving things that one did at the beginning. I need those things. I need to hear that he still thinks I'm beautiful. Thanks for that link. Thanks to everyone else for your thoughtful replies, I'll reply to the rest once I have more time! I agree with Anne....I used to google “how does a man feel respected....loved....appreciated....accepted”. I was B’s biggest cheerleader...I told him that I was in the stands with my Pom poms. I wanted to celebrate every accomplishment. But I also wanted to hear it back from him....I wanted him to tell me I was beautiful etc. and he would....but it honestly never felt like it was enough....like I had this vast drought within me and he was giving me a cup of water. He wasn’t responsible for my drought....but it made it challenging to be satisfied with what he gave me. On the opposite side....he didn’t see himself the way I did and every compliment felt like an obligation...I only discovered this after the breakup. I remember one time I made the mistake of asking him why did not like something about himself because I loved it....I failed to appreciate that the language I used came across as me saying he was wrong for feeling the way he did....so he said in a strong tone that he did not need my encouragement. I felt so sad that day....I apologized to him, told him I did not mean for it to come across as an obligation. I think part of the challenge of 2 insecure people dating is that we tend to give what we want to get....which may not be what the other person needs or even wants to give. So we end up in a cycle of neither person getting what he/she needs. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 20, 2019 20:52:24 GMT
This is so true; loving someone with FA or DA attachment style often means just being there on their terms, and respecting their cycles of needing distance and non-emotive communication.
Though I do think most secure or AP partners of DA's or FA's give love in the way they do because its regarded as `psychologically healthy' and usually enhances trust and intimacy. These are legitimate relationship building tools, and our relationships are a very important part of our quality of life.
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Post by mrob on Oct 20, 2019 22:11:59 GMT
Can you see what you just did there, serenity? You likened AP behaviour to secure behaviour and justified it as being better than avoidant behaviour. Insecure attachment is crappy insecure attachment. This stuff is so ingrained, so deep that it trips us up at each opportunity. |
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On the other hand, reducing intensity and shifting back to more emotional independence after a relationship is established is normal too. A lot of people find they neglect things when they start an intense relationship, which disorientates them. He might be just catching up on things and finding his balance again?
