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Post by mrob on Oct 15, 2019 2:04:22 GMT
Hey mrob. I appreciate you tons. I think calling a spade a spade is not the same as assuming conscious intent, do you? If someone presents as wanting to start a romantic relationship, talks about wanting marriage, acts consistently present and in love for months then suddenly switches to `I don't do relationships'. It seems fair enough to call it bait and switch. It doesn't matter if the behaviour was calculated in intricate detail (though i would call that malicious) or entirely a reflex (non malicious), the mechanism of bait and switch is still what it is. It still causes significant harm and distress to good people. If someone has the boundary of not wanting relationships, its absolutely fair. Misleading people is what breaks hearts and causes significant distress. (bear in mind I'm going through a rough breakup and i have to work with the guy, so I'm being especially strong minded about this atm) In my first marriage, I married my grandmother, a DA. We worked in the same place as my best mate but in different departments. They got together. At the time I was acting up in my best mates department and working with her generally. I understand. It was living hell. I took a backwards step when I left the organisation I’d worked for since I was 17. I think there’s a huge difference between maliciousness and dysfunction. Even if it has the same result. Like murder and manslaughter. |
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 15, 2019 2:21:53 GMT
Anyone is going to feel triggered by perceived inconsistency that is a sudden deep change without enough communication to understand why it's happening and what it means to that person. I know you struggle with working through your FA and accompanying tendencies. What's your gut say here? Immediate first thought only, drown out the layers of noise. Do you feel blind-sided by a sudden behavioral shift in your boyfriend because he's not communicating (or he's not communicating well ie words and actions don't align), or are you trying to tell yourself a negative narrative to create distance when your boyfriend has actually been consistent and stable? (Or both?) Good questions! Right now my gut says to run away to Tahiti. Problem is, I don't know how to separate my "gut" and my fear. He has definitely pulled away, although I might still be catastrophizing and imagining things are worse than they are leaping to conclusions about what this means. What I can't tell is why and whether it is going to continue long-term or, heaven forbid, get worse. I do have a little bit more information now about what he says are the reasons. I guess I can just leave if it doesn't get better within a certain time period. I don't have to decide now. I just keep thinking about how someone in a previous thread said that my boyfriend and I are clearly incompatible and wondering if that is true. |
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 15, 2019 2:28:12 GMT
That seems ethical to me faith. And I would imagine a lot of people would be interested in having company and getting to know new people without any misleading involved. (i know i would) - For selfish reasons too- I know I can handle light dating and not be triggered. I want to socialize some and mainly focus working on me. If I get in deep, that’s when my AP is activated. |
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 15, 2019 2:30:06 GMT
mrob - Well, I understand my ex DA obviously has issues and that’s why he runs and stonewalls. However, the way he protects himself is still hell for me as someone who loves him and wants relationship with him. I felt bait and switch bc he pursued me hard, said I better not leave him and that I was stuck with him “forever.” He said this every single day. I completely believed him. So when he folded and left it knocked the wind out of me bc I believed he wouldn’t leave and I felt if we both chose to stay, there’s no issue we couldn’t work through. I love him deeply and feel for his pain, I really do and I know he doesn’t mean to hurt me, but he does hurt me. I think the problem is that the term "bait and switch" implies intent, and that's clearly how mrob took it. Using that kind of term can sound like you meant that you think the person did it intentionally, like how those men I described in my original post thought their wives acted a certain way purposefully in order to lock them into marriage. Very few people hurt or mislead others intentionally. But that doesn't make it not hurt. And it doesn't absolve them of responsibility for how they affect others. mrob I can sure relate to what you said about previously having no deal breakers and putting up with things you shouldn't have. Now I sometimes wonder if I am going too far in the other direction? Seeing something as a deal breaker when maybe it shouldn't be? I still have trouble knowing what my needs and boundaries are, and believing that someone exists who is capable of meeting those needs. - No, I didn’t mean it was intentional. My DA truly tried, he was all in- introduced me to his parents and kids etc It’s just he said and did one thing and then changed. |
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 15, 2019 2:59:10 GMT
I think the problem is that the term "bait and switch" implies intent, and that's clearly how mrob took it. Using that kind of term can sound like you meant that you think the person did it intentionally, like how those men I described in my original post thought their wives acted a certain way purposefully in order to lock them into marriage. Very few people hurt or mislead others intentionally. But that doesn't make it not hurt. And it doesn't absolve them of responsibility for how they affect others. mrob I can sure relate to what you said about previously having no deal breakers and putting up with things you shouldn't have. Now I sometimes wonder if I am going too far in the other direction? Seeing something as a deal breaker when maybe it shouldn't be? I still have trouble knowing what my needs and boundaries are, and believing that someone exists who is capable of meeting those needs. - No, I didn’t mean it was intentional. My DA truly tried, he was all in- introduced me to his parents and kids etc It’s just he said and did one thing and then changed. I know you didn't mean that, it's just that the term usually means that, which would explain why it was confusing. The term comes from a deliberate sales tactic where a seller advertises an item but then that item doesn't even exist, and the buyer is encouraged to buy either a higher-priced item or an inferior quality item. How do we go on to trust anyone after having experienced being rejected in these ways? I am always waiting for the other shoe to drop and I'm probably looking for evidence that my partner is avoidant and going to either withdraw more and more sexually and/or emotionally yet stay in the relationship (my idea of torture) or else suddenly dump me. I picked this man in part because I thought he was secure. He didn't trigger me either anxious or avoidant very much, or make me immediately feel irrationally drawn to him at first, so I thought this was a safe one. As things progressed I felt he was actually quite anxious sometimes, which was easier for me to handle than my current worry that he might actually be avoidant. |
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 15, 2019 4:41:57 GMT
happyidiot - No, I didn’t mean it was intentional. My DA truly tried, he was all in- introduced me to his parents and kids etc It’s just he said and did one thing and then changed. I know you didn't mean that, it's just that the term usually means that, which would explain why it was confusing. The term comes from a deliberate sales tactic where a seller advertises an item but then that item doesn't even exist, and the buyer is encouraged to buy either a higher-priced item or an inferior quality item. How do we go on to trust anyone after having experienced being rejected in these ways? I am always waiting for the other shoe to drop and I'm probably looking for evidence that my partner is avoidant and going to either withdraw more and more sexually and/or emotionally yet stay in the relationship (my idea of torture) or else suddenly dump me. I picked this man in part because I thought he was secure. He didn't trigger me either anxious or avoidant very much, or make me immediately feel irrationally drawn to him at first, so I thought this was a safe one. As things progressed I felt he was actually quite anxious sometimes, which was easier for me to handle than my current worry that he might actually be avoidant. - One thing I learned when I start dating again is first and foremost to guard my heart. I will take things very slowly with any guy I like so I can get to know him before becoming overly attached. Being careful will also decrease the chance I’ll make him the center of my world- I’ll keep to my routine and fit him in rather than the other way around. This loss has definitely taught me to trust less and tread lightly. I feel I won’t be emotionally ready to move on with someone else for a long time. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 15, 2019 5:34:55 GMT
In my first marriage, I married my grandmother, a DA. We worked in the same place as my best mate but in different departments. They got together. At the time I was acting up in my best mates department and working with her generally. I understand. It was living hell. I took a backwards step when I left the organisation I’d worked for since I was 17. I think there’s a huge difference between maliciousness and dysfunction. Even if it has the same result. Like murder and manslaughter. I think there's a huge difference too. mrob, your perspective, self awareness, and compassion are so valuable to all of us here, I'd hate to make you feel alienated in any way. Sorry if I have because of what I'm going through  Thanks for understanding. |
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Post by mrob on Oct 15, 2019 5:44:59 GMT
serenity , thank you. You don't have to worry about that here with me. The candour and honesty here is very special. For me, pain is a necessary evil for progress. Unfortunately, I tend not to learn any other way.
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Post by mrob on Oct 15, 2019 5:52:37 GMT
I know you didn't mean that, it's just that the term usually means that, which would explain why it was confusing. The term comes from a deliberate sales tactic where a seller advertises an item but then that item doesn't even exist, and the buyer is encouraged to buy either a higher-priced item or an inferior quality item. How do we go on to trust anyone after having experienced being rejected in these ways? I am always waiting for the other shoe to drop and I'm probably looking for evidence that my partner is avoidant and going to either withdraw more and more sexually and/or emotionally yet stay in the relationship (my idea of torture) or else suddenly dump me. I picked this man in part because I thought he was secure. He didn't trigger me either anxious or avoidant very much, or make me immediately feel irrationally drawn to him at first, so I thought this was a safe one. As things progressed I felt he was actually quite anxious sometimes, which was easier for me to handle than my current worry that he might actually be avoidant. - One thing I learned when I start dating again is first and foremost to guard my heart. I will take things very slowly with any guy I like so I can get to know him before becoming overly attached. Being careful will also decrease the chance I’ll make him the center of my world- I’ll keep to my routine and fit him in rather than the other way around. This loss has definitely taught me to trust less and tread lightly. I feel I won’t be emotionally ready to move on with someone else for a long time. As an FA, can I say that that is what I want anyway? I'd rather you had a life and I fit in around you. To me, that's healthy. |
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 15, 2019 6:11:33 GMT
serenity , thank you. You don't have to worry about that here with me. The candour and honesty here is very special. For me, pain is a necessary evil for progress. Unfortunately, I tend not to learn any other way. Me too. I think growth is painful. Pain encourages change, which propels us to grow. I probably wouldn't have found myself learning about attachment theory if I hadn't gone through an incredibly painful experience. Love tears us apart from the inside out so we can see inside ourselves. I told myself that I was so tired of my growth coming from the painful end of occasional short relationships, asked why can't I grow and work on my attachment issues from within the context of a relationship. Well I got that wish, and it's still painful and difficult. Every time I think I have stretched as much as I can and am about to break, to snap in half and give up on this relationship and all relationships, I somehow find the space to grow a little more, to keep trying to increase my capacity for understanding and for opening myself up more, letting myself be more vulnerable, not closing up into my shell and running away. But hell, it's so scary, and it hurts to crack yourself open and to let someone in, and keep doing it over and over. |
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Post by persephone on Oct 15, 2019 9:57:56 GMT
The difference is those cases are a gradual process. Libido goes down because of age, kids, etc. This hasn't been sudden, but also not over the period of years. That’s exactly it. If the “falling out of love” or “libido has dropped” happens in a span of just a few months, it seems like it is more likely an insecure-attachment issue. It's confusing because I've heard people say that things changing is just the honeymoon period or "new relationship energy" ending and unavoidable. I make a huge effort during the early part of a relationship to not say anything I'm not going to follow through on and to try to be consistent in showing ongoing love, appreciation, affection, compliments, sexual responsiveness, etc, as time goes on, and I don't need a surge of hormones to maintain those things, just care and effort, so it frustrates and disappoints me when I perceive that other people just say/do all sorts of shit they don't stick to when excited about someone new. A really common one is making plans for the future that they don't stick to, and at least my boyfriend hasn't been doing that, aside from maybe having talked about a trip that he later realized we can't afford, which is understandable. But another situation is that when someone behaves a certain way towards me and meets certain needs, I start to expect that will continue. I invested in and committed to this relationship based on the assumption that certain things would continue the way they had been. I think people mean the honeymoon period, as in where you feel like you’re on Cloud 9, eventually fades and that is inevitable. As an AP desperate to be loved, I can completely understand where you are coming from. I tried my absolute best to show consistent ongoing love, appreciation, etc. My ex FA dumped me anyway because “his gut told him I wasn’t right” for him... for the last few months. He would not give me a chance to work things out because he’d given himself plenty of time to make up his mind. It left me shocked and blindsided. Jeb’s book “Avoidant” simply states FA/DA people “change feelings” quick, not because they are liars, but it is harder for them to be conscious of a “landscape of feelings”. I’m sure a lot of people want the honeymoon period aka limerence to continue. But it seems like when that period ended, and commitment came into the table, my ex FA freaked out and started to subconsciously distance himself. I say subconsciously because he’d still be very supportive of me, dedicated a lot of time to me, etc, but at the same time, started getting reality distortions about how I was planning to leave him. I only found out about the reality distortion when he was breaking up with me. As an AP, I had the opposite effect. I thought the honeymoon period had ended because he was distancing himself, and there was nothing to worry about. How was he distancing himself? And what made him worry you were planning to break up with him? He thought I was going to dump him because of something he took out of context that I said about my friend. I had a friend who I had known for years, but I noticed she would only contact me if she needed some big favor. I told my ex FA that I couldn’t be close friends with her anymore as she didn’t value me the same. He thought it meant I couldn’t be in a relationship with him as he was not as affectionate as I was towards him. He distanced himself by (lots of textbook stuff): 1. Being his usual cold self towards me, but I didn’t notice. (I asked him why he was cold to me last year and he was adamant he loved me, but was cold because it was his personality). 2. Spent long periods of time chatting other women in front of me, while ignoring me, on two occasions. (I did not confront him about it as I did not want to be jealous and controlling). 3. Cancelled our Friday date nights so he could spend more time with his best friend instead. 4. Two days before breaking up with me, he drove to my house and raised his voice at me for <insert things about my personality here that he’d NEVER said was a problem before in our two years of being together>. I cried my eyes out, I could not work out how someone who supposedly loved me would personally attack me like that. 5. Started getting irritated at me for little things. He got upset at me getting him lunch during our holiday because I “took his freedom to choose away”. Then got himself the same thing and ate it in front of me. (I blamed myself for being like an annoying parent). It seems like Secures can behave in one of two ways: either become AP to distancing, or leave their Avoidant partners. I don't know, my secure exes (one I was with for a long time, one I was with for a short time and am not sure I should even really call an "ex" per se) when I was being avoidant and deactivating just remained secure, they didn't break up with me or become very anxious. I am a bit unusual though, with the one I was with for a long time I communicated a lot about what was going on with me and it was just as upsetting for me as it was for him. I am not that stereotypical severe FA person who will just ghost someone or shut them out or stop having sex with them while blaming it on them. I talk about things. So maybe I am less triggering. Well, there you go, communication makes all the difference. My FA would not communicate (until the day he dumped me). I feel like it was because he didn’t trust me, was out of touch with any good moments we had, and also reality distortion (see number 5 above). I agree with some of these! But I tried the mirroring thing and that went very badly, he thought I was trying to punish him and give him "a taste of his own medicine." That’s great! You got rid of someone who probably would have a hard time being in love. I've also read elsewhere that you should model the behavior you want to see and maybe the other person will start mirroring you. I think the key is probably to just remain consistent and secure yourself and not respond to someone pulling away by anxiously pursuing them. But not withdrawing and closing yourself up just because the other person is doing that. I agree with alexandra that how someone acts early on can sometimes be misleading, because they are not yet triggered. I'm sure most people would peg me as secure on the first few dates. FAs can also act sometimes like APs at the beginning, I had one tell me he loved me close to the first date, only to go on to ghost me for months later on. Avoidants are often hilarious! The funniest guys I've ever known are very avoidant. Yeah, the first date won’t tell you much about a person. One thing I left out in my earlier post was I noticed my ex FA would always “withdraw” after an intimate moment. I thought he was just shy or tired. Nope. That’s going to be the biggest red flag warning I’m going to carry for the rest of my life. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 12:11:54 GMT
I remember we had this discussion around inconsistency as key trigger in several other threads. What we might call inconsistency is what others might call legitimate need for space; ymmv in terms of what you expect as inconsistency. My biggest trigger is inconsistency, particularly when the "change" is sudden and not something you would expect, though it can be explained away.
the way i deal with it now is i just don't accept it. I understand that people have triggers and might shy away after some intimacy, particularly in a new relationship or when the situation is "new" i.e., discussion around wanting to have kids, because we need some space to process the change in relationship. however, if someone just decides he's suddenly now too busy with work with no clear communication based on respect and love, it's not just a red flag, it has "end-it" written all over it. Bye, felipe!
For the comment on mirroring, i think it's very important to identify what mirroring means to you and how it can be done in a secure fashion. as happyidiot said, it's about being consistent and secure yourself first, and then start slowly in the relationship. If the person shows signs of investment, then you mirror that level of investment. if he reduces investment to get space, give him/her space while remaining detached from the outcomes of what that act might do and communicating where you stand on things clearly and calmly. My philosophy is if he/she goes up, I go up. If he/she reduces, i stay neutral, reduce but I don't move too much. If he/she goes down i.e., treats you like crap, I'm out.
Mirroring also has alot to with consistency - if you are modeling the behavior you want in your life, so that you set the stage up for it to occur for you. I am consistent in my behaviors and investment, so that the other person feels secure with me as well. What this means is that I had to re-evaluate myself as a partner and really define my own values and desires around being in a relationship. The real question was "what does the ideal long-term partnership look like, do i want to be in it, and more importantly, what do I have to do/who should I be to make this a reality". once those questions were answered, finding someone appropriate might take time but deciding who is inappropriate becomes alotttttttt easier. Triggering is such a two-way street; I want to be sure I don't trigger others easily and I don't trigger easily as well.
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Post by 8675309 on Oct 15, 2019 12:37:38 GMT
Secures will tell you they need space to process things etc, they wont just distance themselves. In general we dont need that kinds of space after a heavy talk as we can still process without needing to run. For me personally dating my secures, I never had doubts, I never wondered if Id hear from them, I never worried about not getting a reply, they never distanced, I didn't have to 'mirror', etc, etc. It just flowed naturally. Even though we didnt end up working there was no doubts in the aspect he was there and had my back.
I never experienced these doubts, etc until my FA came in my life. He was my first avoidant.
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 15, 2019 19:30:47 GMT
Secures will tell you they need space to process things etc, they wont just distance themselves. In general we dont need that kinds of space after a heavy talk as we can still process without needing to run. For me personally dating my secures, I never had doubts, I never wondered if Id hear from them, I never worried about not getting a reply, they never distanced, I didn't have to 'mirror', etc, etc. It just flowed naturally. Even though we didnt end up working there was no doubts in the aspect he was there and had my back.
I never experienced these doubts, etc until my FA came in my life. He was my first avoidant.
I'm not sure how good a test that (the presence of doubts and worries about the person withdrawing etc) is to assess if someone is secure for an insecure person though, because we can still be triggered even by secure or somewhat secure people. Once you have been "burnt" by someone ghosting or dumping you out of nowhere or withdrawing all affection etc, it becomes increasing likely that you will start looking for signs that that is about to happen with future partners. And really, someone can be somewhat insecure and still be a good partner if they put in enough effort (I'm not secure myself!), and a secure person isn't guaranteed to be a great partner who never leaves you, so I guess I should probably quit trying to figure out what percentage avoidant my boyfriend is and trying to predict the future and just look at his actions. |
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 15, 2019 19:31:07 GMT
anne12 Did you post in this thread and then your post vanished?
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Thanks for understanding.