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Post by serenity on Oct 20, 2019 22:52:09 GMT
Mrob, I don't think of relationship building behaviours as `better' than FA/DA avoidant behaviours. I think the distancing strategies used by FA/DA's avoidants work especially well for their needs, which is usually to avoid intimate, committed, vulnerable inter-dependent relationships. And they have very good reasons for wanting that. I definitely don't think of their behavior as `worse' if its serving them.
The specific behaviours mentioned by tnr9 were ``celebrating your partner's accomplishments'' , ``compliments'' and ``giving''. These are regarded as behaviours that improve relationship satisfaction and sustain intimate relationships normally. Some posters give themselves a real hard time for being loving, when in a different situation (with a partner whose goal is an intimate sustainable relationship) those behaviors would contribute to mutual relationship satisfaction. That's where I'm coming from.
As far as I have experienced, someone who doesn't want intimate relationships, and someone who does, are simply incompatible. There doesn't need to be any value judgements attached to that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2019 0:02:52 GMT
Can you see what you just did there, serenity? You likened AP behaviour to secure behaviour and justified it as being better than avoidant behaviour. Insecure attachment is crappy insecure attachment. This stuff is so ingrained, so deep that it trips us up at each opportunity. , ex-partners of avoidants who post here show tremendous amounts of denial and insecure behavior when they get here. When they "see the light" and recognize the dysfunction they have engaged in, they often still see themselves as healthy but fleeced by rhe avoidant. Their perspective is that the avoidant carries the baggage, they are victimized by it. This will not change. There are a few aware posters but they are not likening their insecure behavior to secure behavior, they see it clearly for what it is. A string of insecure relationships with avoidants is not enough to convince some people that they are insecure. Let that be the case, they can hit bottom or not, some time down the line. As for now. they are healthy, and that is why they are here.  |
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 21, 2019 0:59:03 GMT
"...I need those things to hear that I am beautyfull ect.. We used to ...." It is an AP trait to give to receive - it can be totally unconscious. If you keep on giving it to him when he doesn't need it and you are not getting the same in return, you can end up being recentfull I'm not giving in order to receive and it's not making me resentful. The whole reason this topic came up was because I was talking about my trouble with inconsistency and that my bf's behavior had changed but I wasn't entirely sure why, and I was making allowances for the fact that some of it COULD just be because the honeymoon is over. I was trying to explain that I think that telling my partner I appreciate them, I am attracted to them etc, even after I have been with them for a while, is important to do and something I consciously continue to do, even when it doesn't always come quite as automatically when you aren't hopped up on hormones anymore. I want and need to do and say these things, for many reasons (one of which is to help me overcome my own avoidance). My boyfriend was saying/doing a ton of nice/appreciative/complimentary things early on in our relationship, in fact I think that was part of what made me really able to open up and practice gratitude and say and do these things back to him, I was mirroring him. With some previous partners, when I was considerably less secure, I might have kept them inside out of fear of scaring the person away. I noticed that he was not saying this stuff as much lately and was pondering if it could be as simple as him getting more secure in the relationship and no longer being in hormonal limerence. That it could just be a difference in our responses to the honeymoon ending. At the same time, he recently seemed to be able to hear it less than he used to when I tell him I appreciate or admire him etc, probably because he is stressed out, less present, preoccupied and feeling bad about himself. I know I can have trouble hearing compliments etc when I am feeling down, (personally I've made it a practice to work on receiving them though and have improved a lot). My boyfriend used to always respond very well, telling me how much he "loves" hearing these things. He also told me one of his top love languages is "words of affirmation." I think it would be an insecure thing to have stopped saying them and assumed he didn't want/need them just because he wasn't noticing or reciprocating quite as much as usual. I definitely didn't anxiously increase them because of worries he was slipping away, in fact I toned it down a bit. At the same time, yes it is one of my own needs to hear words of affirmation that my partner sees, desires, and loves me, finds me attractive and appreciates our relationship. Please don't twist that into me only doing those things because I want to hear them back. I don't think that this thread needs to become focused on this as a key problem, as something I should change. It's also a moot point because he now does not want any contact with me. I agree with Anne....I used to google “how does a man feel respected....loved....appreciated....accepted”. I was B’s biggest cheerleader...I told him that I was in the stands with my Pom poms. I wanted to celebrate every accomplishment. But I also wanted to hear it back from him....I wanted him to tell me I was beautiful etc. and he would....but it honestly never felt like it was enough....like I had this vast drought within me and he was giving me a cup of water. He wasn’t responsible for my drought....but it made it challenging to be satisfied with what he gave me. On the opposite side....he didn’t see himself the way I did and every compliment felt like an obligation...I only discovered this after the breakup. I remember one time I made the mistake of asking him why did not like something about himself because I loved it....I failed to appreciate that the language I used came across as me saying he was wrong for feeling the way he did....so he said in a strong tone that he did not need my encouragement. I felt so sad that day....I apologized to him, told him I did not mean for it to come across as an obligation. I think part of the challenge of 2 insecure people dating is that we tend to give what we want to get....which may not be what the other person needs or even wants to give. So we end up in a cycle of neither person getting what he/she needs. It's such a nuanced subject. I can relate a bit. I have a certain thing about my body that I think is ugly. If someone compliments it I am convinced that they are lying, that they are only saying it to be nice. That they are only saying it because they know I'm insecure about it. I don't need them to say it looks good and it doesn't make me feel any better. Does that mean they should stop doing it? I don't think so. They are being kind. Maybe they just had that thought and wanted to tell me, maybe they actually do think it looks good (although I can't imagine how). It's my problem. And I especially don't think it's their responsibility to guess what I need or want if I am not even communicating that. In fact, my main problem with it is when I think someone is saying this body part looks good BECAUSE they are guessing what I want/need and thinking they are being helpful, as opposed to genuinely liking it. Like if they are complimenting it right after hearing me say it's looking particularly bad today. Where it becomes especially unwelcome is when it turns into someone telling me I'm "crazy" for thinking that thing about me is unattractive. It's possible a small number of the encouraging things I've said to my boyfriend may have made him feel bad because they were about something that was secretly not going well. As an analogy, this is not a real example, but pretend I said something like, "I love your new car. Thanks so much for driving me around in it all the time. I really appreciate it. And I admire that you were able to work hard and save up for it, you must be so excited!" and unbeknownst to me, his car was about to be repossessed because he hadn't been making the payments. I don't think it's exclusive to insecure people to have a tendency to give what you yourself would appreciate receiving. And I don't think that is inherently bad to do that. There are even plenty of self-help articles saying we SHOULD do that and that often what we want most is something we’re not giving. For example, previously I wanted an open partner who was vulnerable and talked about their feelings, and I realized that I was not doing those things myself. I think where it becomes a problem is when it becomes transactional, with expectations attached to our giving, or when we don't pay attention to what people tell us about our needs (I don't mean trying to constantly anticipate their unspoken needs, which is an insecure thing). I don't think I've been doing either of those things in this situation. As for B not being responsible for your unquenchable thirst, sure, he didn't cause it, it was already there from childhood, but that doesn't mean that thirst is not something that is exacerbated by visiting a desert. If you were at a river you might have felt a bit better. I need to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking my needs are just "too much" for anyone, and focus on how to understand my needs better and learn healthier more effective ways to try to get my needs met. This is so true; loving someone with FA or DA attachment style often means just being there on their terms, and respecting their cycles of needing distance and non-emotive communication. Though I do think most secure or AP partners of DA's or FA's give love in the way they do because its regarded as `psychologically healthy' and usually enhances trust and intimacy. These are legitimate relationship building tools, and our relationships are a very important part of our quality of life. Yeah, I don't know about "secures and APs" and I'm neither, but I think I get what you are saying. I don't want to be with someone only on their terms, bending over backwards to accommodate their unpredictable needs, ignoring my own needs. That leads to resentment and unhappiness for me. I think I can handle a somewhat insecure partner, and it might be only "fair" considering that I am still somewhat insecure myself, but it has to feel like it isn't too imbalanced, everything "their way or the highway." I have some empathy for all the attachment styles since I have a big chunk of all of them in my makeup. But if someone responds poorly to those kinds of regular things that typically enhance trust and intimacy in secure relationships, then the reality is they are not someone I want as a life partner. I don't want to ever again have to walk on eggshells being afraid to tell someone I love them, or to point out the great things about them, or be affectionate or sexual with them, or to make plans for the future, or to communicate with them freely and frequently, etc. If doing these things means that an avoidant person deactivates from me sooner than they might have otherwise, then maybe that is a blessing in disguise. I guess the main thing I was trying to find out in this thread was whether my alarm at my relationship no longer meeting needs that it met extremely well previously was just me being insecure. Now, as more events have transpired, I suspect that both my boyfriend and I became increasingly insecure, that what I was hoping was just him getting more secure and the honeymoon hormones going down and me being paranoid, was actually him feeling more insecure in our relationship (both because of some unrelated stuff being triggering and maybe because like anne12 said, as the relationship settles in trauma has more room to kick up) and responding to that in a different way than he had previously. And I became increasingly insecure, which made him worse. I think we have both been unconsciously sabotaging things because we each developed a major fear that became a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's all so sad. I think it's unfixable. |
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 21, 2019 1:10:29 GMT
Mrob, I don't think of relationship building behaviours as `better' than FA/DA avoidant behaviours. I think the distancing strategies used by FA/DA's avoidants work especially well for their needs, which is usually to avoid intimate, committed, vulnerable inter-dependent relationships. And they have very good reasons for wanting that. I definitely don't think of their behavior as `worse' if its serving them. The specific behaviours mentioned by tnr9 were ``celebrating your partner's accomplishments'' , ``compliments'' and ``giving''. These are regarded as behaviours that improve relationship satisfaction and sustain intimate relationships normally. Some posters give themselves a real hard time for being loving, when in a different situation (with a partner whose goal is an intimate sustainable relationship) those behaviors would contribute to mutual relationship satisfaction. That's where I'm coming from. As far as I have experienced, someone who doesn't want intimate relationships, and someone who does, are simply incompatible. There doesn't need to be any value judgements attached to that. I see what you mean. It can be even more complicated for us FAs as we are being pulled in two opposing directions, closeness and avoidance, and we can spiral off in one or the other. I do think APs avoid intimate, committed vulnerable inter-dependent relationships in their own way too though and prefer to chase or pine for someone who is not capable of one. I got that you were talking about those specific behaviors as being conventional relationship building skills and weren't saying "APs good, avoidants bad." You can look at any list of "tools happy couples use" etc and see those kinds of things mentioned. Perhaps people took issue with your use of the word "healthy" when describing something you said APs do. I didn't take that as you saying being AP is healthy. |
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 21, 2019 1:27:43 GMT
Can you see what you just did there, serenity ? You likened AP behaviour to secure behaviour and justified it as being better than avoidant behaviour. Insecure attachment is crappy insecure attachment. This stuff is so ingrained, so deep that it trips us up at each opportunity. , ex-partners of avoidants who post here show tremendous amounts of denial and insecure behavior when they get here. When they "see the light" and recognize the dysfunction they have engaged in, they often still see themselves as healthy but fleeced by rhe avoidant. Their perspective is that the avoidant carries the baggage, they are victimized by it. This will not change. There are a few aware posters but they are not likening their insecure behavior to secure behavior, they see it clearly for what it is. A string of insecure relationships with avoidants is not enough to convince some people that they are insecure. Let that be the case, they can hit bottom or not, some time down the line. As for now. they are healthy, and that is why they are here. I always find this topic to be so interesting because the perspective stated above is absolutely foreign to me. I always take the blame....it is something I did wrong...I am at fault...not my ex partner. So I have the opposite issue that I am trying to work on...seeing where it was a shared issue and not just mine. |
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Post by happyidiot on Oct 21, 2019 3:46:32 GMT
mrob , ex-partners of avoidants who post here show tremendous amounts of denial and insecure behavior when they get here. When they "see the light" and recognize the dysfunction they have engaged in, they often still see themselves as healthy but fleeced by rhe avoidant. Their perspective is that the avoidant carries the baggage, they are victimized by it. This will not change. There are a few aware posters but they are not likening their insecure behavior to secure behavior, they see it clearly for what it is. A string of insecure relationships with avoidants is not enough to convince some people that they are insecure. Let that be the case, they can hit bottom or not, some time down the line. As for now. they are healthy, and that is why they are here. I always find this topic to be so interesting because the perspective stated above is absolutely foreign to me. I always take the blame....it is something I did wrong...I am at fault...not my ex partner. So I have the opposite issue that I am trying to work on...seeing where it was a shared issue and not just mine. Me too. Sometimes I will start off briefly thinking my partner/ex wronged me in a way I didn't deserve, but that very quickly turns into self-blame. I do also see people of ALL attachment types externalize things by putting all the blame on their partner/ex. I see some APs and some avoidants of both stripes and some self-described secures (if they actually truly are secure) feeling very "victimized" too. My go-to is an internal (and sometimes external) refrain of, "I am bad, I don't deserve love, I made this happen, I'm sorry, I caused this, if only I did better I would not have been abandoned," etc and that is one of the biggest things I am trying to work on. How are you working on this? |
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Post by serenity on Oct 21, 2019 6:35:10 GMT
I ended up here because of pain and confusion after dating an FA. But I found myself in situations with emotionally unavailable men, like him, because of major damage that a long term relationship with an AP caused me several years ago. He was "giving" (he gave me gifts constantly) because it was to induce me to give back. It was selfish and manipulative. He ended up punishing me for not doing exactly what he wanted (comforting him incessantly and fixing his severe emotional issues). I say this not to denigrate APs. But from what I have personally seen on a few occasions, APs exhibit unhealthy codependent behavior, give for some specific purpose, expect others to create self esteem in them (which no one in the world can do, hence why it is called SELF esteem), and they wear their partners down. I felt like I had a constant anchor attached to me, and he was constantly trying to mold me into what would satisfy his unhealthy emotional state. I had to work on getting myself back afterwards. This is MY personal experience with an AP. I don't think it is a matter of not wanting an intimate relationship. I wanted one with this man. But I could not have an intimacy with him that involved me cleaning up his emotional state which was a result of lots of internal wounding and relationships prior to our meeting. That was unfair to me. And I tried really hard because I thought, outside of the emotional dynamic, that we were really compatible. On the other hand, I was just tossed aside by an FA just out of a desire to have consistency at an emotional/communucation level that HE created. And I felt different kind of pain from it because he really pushed things forward to begin with. What a major source of confusion (that I now understand much better). I'm trying to figure out where my bad patterns are because I've been involved in these situations too. I agree with mrob that it really just sucks on both sides sometimes for all insecure types who really deeply want intimacy but can't figure out how to achieve it. Hey Janedoe, I'm sorry to hear how rough its been for you in recent years, that's a lot of pain to have experienced : ( I've come across those kinds of AP's in the dating world too, and know exactly what you mean. You feel almost like their drug, and objectified in a way. Their triggers play out as Love-bombing , hypersexuality (that feels like a means to control you) , clinging, punishing manipulative behaviours, and they seem unable to self regulate their emotions or self sooth. The one I dated the longest had BPD I think; it was hell. It makes perfect sense that someone with FA attachment style would seem a safer choice after all that. My relationship with my ex FA started out the same way as yours, with him demonstrating consistent affection and love for many months (that he initiated). I took it on face value, then he suddenly flipped a switch after the high of the honeymoon period ended. From what I'm reading here on the forums, that `switch flipping' throws a lot of people off and causes significant distress, no matter what attachment style or triggers they have. In my own experiences, this is not particularly common behavior. My longest relationships of 15 and 5 years started out the same way....with consistent love and affection, but those behaviours continued after the honeymoon ended, and for many, many years after. Its probably true that as we get older, there are more single avoidants so we are more likely to encounter them. But don't rush to assume that because you met some of them, you cannot have a secure relationship with a safe person. |
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Post by anne12 on Oct 21, 2019 7:21:18 GMT
Jeb made a new forum where NPD, BPD, ASPD, historinic personality disorder and other personality disorders are seperated from the general definition of atchment styles There are personality types and disorders that, unlike the four main attachment types, are uncommon and can be considered harmful or "abnormal." This area is for discussion of narcissists, BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), social anxiety (pathological shyness, agoraphobia, and similar crippling anxieties), histrionic personalities, sadists, psychopaths, and other more-or-less damaged personalities. jebkinnison.com/new-forums/ |
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Post by Nefertiti on Oct 21, 2019 10:36:18 GMT
Yes, I think I was too available. It's tough because a lot of the time lately I just really want to focus on my work and chores and reading and stuff, so it may seem like I don't have much going on or much of my own life, since I'm not going out with friends or doing hobbies as much, and I always prioritize him. I don't "have to" compliment him and tell him how much I appreciate him etc, I WANT to do those things. I like it. I'm not sure if he "needs" that specifically, but he did say he needs "words of affirmation." And he needs to know that he can make me happy. And he used to say it made him so happy to hear these kinds of things from me. I'm not doing it because I think he needs it or to try to get him to reciprocate, I mention that he used to do those things on his own too and rarely does anymore to explain that this change is worrisome to me and I don't know if it is just because the honeymoon is over that he stopped doing them. I'm still choosing to do them even though the honeymoon is over, and I think it is good for relationships to keep up those little thoughtful or loving things that one did at the beginning. I need those things. I need to hear that he still thinks I'm beautiful. Thanks for that link. Thanks to everyone else for your thoughtful replies, I'll reply to the rest once I have more time! I agree with Anne....I used to google “how does a man feel respected....loved....appreciated....accepted”. I was B’s biggest cheerleader...I told him that I was in the stands with my Pom poms. I wanted to celebrate every accomplishment. But I also wanted to hear it back from him....I wanted him to tell me I was beautiful etc. and he would....but it honestly never felt like it was enough....like I had this vast drought within me and he was giving me a cup of water. He wasn’t responsible for my drought....but it made it challenging to be satisfied with what he gave me. On the opposite side....he didn’t see himself the way I did and every compliment felt like an obligation...I only discovered this after the breakup. I remember one time I made the mistake of asking him why did not like something about himself because I loved it....I failed to appreciate that the language I used came across as me saying he was wrong for feeling the way he did....so he said in a strong tone that he did not need my encouragement. I felt so sad that day....I apologized to him, told him I did not mean for it to come across as an obligation. I think part of the challenge of 2 insecure people dating is that we tend to give what we want to get....which may not be what the other person needs or even wants to give. So we end up in a cycle of neither person getting what he/she needs. I don't know if googling "How does a man feel respected?" is a sign of being an AP. If I were to guess, it really isn't. I am quite sure that a secure person would want to know for sure. Why not an AP or FA/DA? As for your need to celebrate every accomplishment... Please never think that it is a bad thing. You wanting to hear it back may not be an AP thing but rather a love language thing. And think about it. What kind of loving partner doesn't notice and then acknowledge an accomplishment? Your FA partner's inability to see a compliment as nothing but an obligation is his problem, in my view. Not yours. Moreover, it may not be an FA issue at all on his part. Personally I do things for the people I love. I don't really say things out loud often. I have had to learn to say the words "I love you" to my kids often. I used to think that it was obvious. Duh! Conversely, I expect them to do things for me. A partner who tells me they love me all the time would have a hard time convincing me on a subconscious level. If he is sick, I will do whatever I can. If I am sick and all he does is wish me well and tell me he loves me, we would have a problem. You may have AP tendencies, but encouraging loved ones, paying them deserved compliments, cheering them on in their pursuits is something you never ever have to apologise for. We all expect to receive love in the way we give it. |
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