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Post by Nefertiti on Oct 14, 2019 20:57:16 GMT
I have an avoidant someone in my life. I think he is leaning more towards FA because of the way he cycles back after getting off the radar for weeks (the latest being an entire month ). I have just learned about attachment styles (as in a few days ago). Had no idea until I researched his behaviour and things that had driven me nuts began to make sense. Long story short, everything is perfect when we are together. Picture perfect until I start talking feelings. In the past when we have been together, I have sort of just dropped the subject. We usually have lots of activities together and it seemed such a shame to ruin the few days we actually spend in each other's company having a difficult talk. Being long distance, communication is everything. There is nothing else really. But he will not talk about his feelings about the relationship. He will talk about how he misses me, wants me, misses our face-to-face conversations, etc. Sexual talk? That is easy. We can also discuss world news, economics and the like, no problem. To me, the distance should make it easier for him to open up. But clearly I am dealing with someone with a different way of thinking. Just a bit more background... I tested "secure" with a bit of anxious the other day. Did several tests to make sure. I do believe that I am generally secure based on past behaviour in relationships. However, I have become quite anxious in this relationship. I have never been in a relationship where I am afraid to say things. Where I think twice about making normal demands on his time (very unusual for me). I find myself waiting on him to determine if and when he can see me. I do not change my plans so much as inform him where I will be (we both travel a lot) and wait for him to either come see me or not. Totally abnormal for me. I walk on egg shells when talking feelings. And I am forever preoccupied with the weirdness of the relationship. Not good at all. It all seemed like low key stuff at first but it has been piling up. The feeling that this simply can't go on. The final straw was a month long disappearance that had me researching what it is about this relationship that is so odd. How do I get him to a place where he can talk about this? I sent him an email, non-accusatory but clear about what I need so as not to trigger adverse and unintended reactions. This was 3 days ago. When I mentioned the mail in texts the other day, he completely ignored that part and instead discussed something else I talked about. Today I sent a text asking him how he would like to communicate since we need to discuss the email (my needs and his needs). That was a few hours ago and he hasn't responded. What now? FA or not, avoidant or not, I feel that this has gone on for too long and must come to a head somehow. His closest friend told me today that he doesn't think that he will respond to my mail. Hmmm...Any insight on how to get him to open up about the relationship?
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Post by mrob on Oct 14, 2019 22:03:25 GMT
Welcome to the board. What you’re describing is textbook FA behaviour. By chasing him, you’re acting in an anxious way. A long distance relationship is comfortable for an FA because you can’t get too close. You couldn’t swallow my life.
In short, you need to decide if this works for you, because it isn’t changing in a hurry. Any trying to “address” the situation will shut him down more.
I suggest reading the “Bad Boyfriends” book. It’ll give you the perspective to make a decision.
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 14, 2019 23:02:39 GMT
If you push an avoidant they will either bite or run. I just pressed my DA about a week ago and he told me to move on. When I texted more, he told me we should go our separate ways. When an avoidant distances to make him or herself more comfortable it can be very anxiety producing in their partner- even if the partner is secure. These anxious feelings encourage chase mode and the avoidant feels smothered and runs faster. The trap. The cycle.
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Post by serenity on Oct 14, 2019 23:29:33 GMT
I agree with mrob and faith. When I figured out my ex was FA, I never chased no matter how anxious I felt. I was patient with his cycles of distance and reconnection, and hoped that trust would build up gradually. I kinda loved his slow pace with things. I voiced any concerns I had, but picked my timing well. Deactivation is never a time to have heavy conversations.
The nail in the coffin for that relationship was his approach to conflict resolution. I was already dealing with the stress of his cycles of distance, and during conflict he would stonewall and give the silent treatment, without ever explaining what his issue was exactly. This eventually progressed to unprovoked verbal abuse and personal attacks, followed by more stonewalling. I broke up with him after a few weeks of that behaviour.
I still don't know what his problem was, he never said. Either he found someone else and wanted to pick a fight or there was some other mystery reason. Either way, its not how i want to be treated by someone I gave my heart to.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 21:19:27 GMT
He's opened up just fine by ignoring your attempts to communicate about your needs. His need is clear- the need to avoid. Secure behavior would be to accept his behavior as either conducive to a mature, mutual relationship or not conducive to a mature, mutual relationship, and make choices according to one's own boundaries, values, and priorities.
Insecure behavior would be to make attempts beyond the ones you've already made to create a meaningful dialog, and then go about finding ways to get the non-responsive partner to change their behavior.
So, you get to choose your own security or insecurity here, but you don't really have an option of influencing his.
I recently wrote about the person who test drives a lemon, falls in love with it, and keeps driving it hoping it will become a better vehicle ( because they want it to run better and get them around, where they want to go.) Attachment, feelings, denial, and wishful thinking and multiple goes with a wrench likely won't fix a lemon.
It's a good idea to choose a relationship partner who possesses the qualities that you desire instead of trying to elicit the desired qualities from someone who isn't displaying them consistently as you develop your relationship. That seems to be a consistent lesson learned here. Best of luck!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 21:31:48 GMT
I just re-read about the month long disappearance. I simply cannot imagine reconnecting with someone who ghosts. Why do people give that a chance? Why is that not seen as a clear statement about the level of disregard someone is willing to show you, when they just disappear? I am mystified about returning to someone who would treat me that way. And if it was them that tried to return, they wouldn't be able to get around the block that I'd have in place. I just don't understand this, has it ever, ever in the history of relationships, gone well after ghosting? I don't think I have ever heard of a relationship that wasn't just absolute crap that included the tolerance of disappearing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 23:03:39 GMT
I just re-read about the month long disappearance. I simply cannot imagine reconnecting with someone who ghosts. Why do people give that a chance? Why is that not seen as a clear statement about the level of disregard someone is willing to show you, when they just disappear? I am mystified about returning to someone who would treat me that way. And if it was them that tried to return, they wouldn't be able to get around the block that I'd have in place. I just don't understand this, has it ever, ever in the history of relationships, gone well after ghosting? I don't think I have ever heard of a relationship that wasn't just absolute crap that included the tolerance of disappearing. I think for some insecures, that is all they’ve known their entire life based on parental behaviors most likely. Their parents were available and then unavailable and then available again, as and when they have resources or bandwidth. For example, they might be loving and present during the holidays, then emotionally and mentally absent when work starts and gets busy. as children, we were told to be understanding when parents get busy and have no time and energy to meet your silly needs for attention, and so we just need to wait till the period is over. That is construed as love - understanding and waiting for someone to have time and space for you. Thus, this inconsistency is “normal”, and so ghosting is “normal” and “understandable”. The nuance between “needing space” and “disappearing” is often lost/equated for insecures, and so ghosting is accepted; waiting for someone you love to resurface and come to you IS considered loving behaviors that demonstrate our love for the other party. How else would we then show that we have tolerance and patience and love for the other party’s difficulties? It’s warped logic, but it is what we learnt as being loving - accepting the disappearance because we are understanding of other people’s lack of resources for us. This is also why you see APs in particular making excuses and making up narratives for all the disappearances.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 1:43:33 GMT
I just re-read about the month long disappearance. I simply cannot imagine reconnecting with someone who ghosts. Why do people give that a chance? Why is that not seen as a clear statement about the level of disregard someone is willing to show you, when they just disappear? I am mystified about returning to someone who would treat me that way. And if it was them that tried to return, they wouldn't be able to get around the block that I'd have in place. I just don't understand this, has it ever, ever in the history of relationships, gone well after ghosting? I don't think I have ever heard of a relationship that wasn't just absolute crap that included the tolerance of disappearing. I think for some insecures, that is all they’ve known their entire life based on parental behaviors most likely. Their parents were available and then unavailable and then available again, as and when they have resources or bandwidth. For example, they might be loving and present during the holidays, then emotionally and mentally absent when work starts and gets busy. as children, we were told to be understanding when parents get busy and have no time and energy to meet your silly needs for attention, and so we just need to wait till the period is over. That is construed as love - understanding and waiting for someone to have time and space for you. Thus, this inconsistency is “normal”, and so ghosting is “normal” and “understandable”. The nuance between “needing space” and “disappearing” is often lost/equated for insecures, and so ghosting is accepted; waiting for someone you love to resurface and come to you IS considered loving behaviors that demonstrate our love for the other party. How else would we then show that we have tolerance and patience and love for the other party’s difficulties? It’s warped logic, but it is what we learnt as being loving - accepting the disappearance because we are understanding of other people’s lack of resources for us. This is also why you see APs in particular making excuses and making up narratives for all the disappearances. Ah, that makes sense in terms of the initial pattern, and how it shapes the narrative. It's so destructive though. My attachment system would just close down completely after that. It would be painful but then deactivation would prevail. So it's hard to imagine wanting someone like that back.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 2:05:53 GMT
The trouble with that POV is that it must surely only be an AP that sees remaining available as an act of "love" . It leaves the AP wide open to exploitation and objectification, and it seems like the person who ghosts and returns sees the faithful AP as gullible and easily manipulated. All the ghoster has to do is express appreciation for waiting on them and then they are back, welcomed with open arms because the AP is so relieved, and ghoster even gwts catered to and tippy toed around. It's completely enabling to take a ghoster back, especially under the guise of being tolerant and loving and patient. This means, no negative consequences for such harmful behavior, in fact, the whole thing just lowers the bar permanently from what I've observed here. Even (self aware) FA's admit that when they go back, it's not with real feelings, it's a fix of some sorts. I think one FA wrote here that they knew it is too ballsy to expect to be able to return after disappearing.
So this is just a really self destructive mindset, to tolerate it. Ouch!
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Post by Nefertiti on Oct 16, 2019 6:24:17 GMT
Welcome to the board. What you’re describing is textbook FA behaviour. By chasing him, you’re acting in an anxious way. A long distance relationship is comfortable for an FA because you can’t get too close. You couldn’t swallow my life. In short, you need to decide if this works for you, because it isn’t changing in a hurry. Any trying to “address” the situation will shut him down more. I suggest reading the “Bad Boyfriends” book. It’ll give you the perspective to make a decision. Thank you, mrob. I think that you are right about him shutting down. He still hasn't responded to my texts about agreeing on a comfortable way for us to communicate. Will get the book.
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Post by Nefertiti on Oct 16, 2019 8:06:22 GMT
If you push an avoidant they will either bite or run. I just pressed my DA about a week ago and he told me to move on. When I texted more, he told me we should go our separate ways. When an avoidant distances to make him or herself more comfortable it can be very anxiety producing in their partner- even if the partner is secure. These anxious feelings encourage chase mode and the avoidant feels smothered and runs faster. The trap. The cycle. Oh dear. I can't stand worrying about anything. My auto response is to fix it. Deal with it immediately. And boy have I tried to fix things. He runs but then he comes back. It has been so exhausting that I became anxious about the fact that I was anxious all the time. That was the strongest clue for me that things were not quite right. Love, to me, isn't supposed to be a rollercoaster of highs and lows. I hate drama and I am terrible at taking hints. I kept questioning why I feel bereft, starved even of love. Not knowing about avoidants and how they operate, I began to blame myself. I have read about anxious types. I can see that asking him to emote is acting anxious on my part. At the beginning, I used to disengage too. Once he shut down, I would not contact him at all. The first time it happened, I assumed that whatever we had was over and went about my life. Ignoring my texts asking how he is, telling him a story or giving him regular information...ignoring them for 2 days was enough to make me disengage completely. When he got back in touch, I would be non-committal until we could meet and talk. In these talks, I would bluntly ask him what was going on. He had some answers once I probed beyond the "I was busy" response. Pretty telling ones now that I know about avoidants. It has to do with his own anxiety. He talked of panic attacks. Very reluctant to call it anxiety though. Just panic attacks that make him leave the room, quit a conversation or go hide in his apartment for days until they subside. He told me that he has it under control and I thought nothing of it. However, as we got closer (with a number of week-long disappearances on his part) he seemed to open up a bit more each time. This lulled me into thinking that we were making progress. Recently he disappeared for a month. No amount of mental gymnastics could assuage my anxiety. I couldn't continually psych myself into thinking that I don't care. I was driving myself nuts with mixed messages..to myself. On the one hand, I really love this guy. On the other, this is a screwed up situation to be in. Then I began to reason that regardless of our issues, I owe it to him (and myself) to get to the bottom of it. Not just throw in the towel. When I first read about avoidants, I got even more confused. Couldn't decide if he was FA or DA and I was upset that he was an avoidant at all. There is so much negative stuff on the internet about avoidants that one gets the impression that one should run far, far away. I wanted to run, to cut things off abruptly at first. But then I figured that he is not the first avoidant in the world and that someone somewhere may know how to approach having a talk with one. Avoidance seems to work because they avoid things. I figured that if I got him to open up then perhaps we could discuss our perceptions of the relationship, our individual needs and come to some sort of agreement. To be honest (and I don't know what this says about me), there are some advantages to his avoidant behaviour. It is not all bad. It is weird but there are some other avoidant things he does that work well for me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 8:27:11 GMT
The trouble with that POV is that it must surely only be an AP that sees remaining available as an act of "love" . It leaves the AP wide open to exploitation and objectification, and it seems like the person who ghosts and returns sees the faithful AP as gullible and easily manipulated. All the ghoster has to do is express appreciation for waiting on them and then they are back, welcomed with open arms because the AP is so relieved, and ghoster even gwts catered to and tippy toed around. It's completely enabling to take a ghoster back, especially under the guise of being tolerant and loving and patient. This means, no negative consequences for such harmful behavior, in fact, the whole thing just lowers the bar permanently from what I've observed here. Even (self aware) FA's admit that when they go back, it's not with real feelings, it's a fix of some sorts. I think one FA wrote here that they knew it is too ballsy to expect to be able to return after disappearing. So this is just a really self destructive mindset, to tolerate it. Ouch! yes, you're exactly right. and that is a very painful thing for APs as well, especially when they're criticized for the little love that they can give in the form of patience and tolerance for everyone else's problems. That is what they're taught - you're lovable only when you're not being selfish, and if you can't have space for people you love, then you're selfish and bad. no matter what they do - stay or walk, either way they're fucked, unlovable, selfish and unempathetic people. it's very tough because no matter what you do, it's deemed bad i.e., you're a bad person fundamentally and therefore, not worthy of loving - all the relationships are empirical proof of that fact. those who are heavy APs generally do not have any semblance of healthy relationships to model after growing up, so there is no other source to turn to if leaving a bad one, and thus feels like there is no other choice. I'm not sure about other people, but a part of my narrative, despite my many successes, was that I don't know anything and that nobody will trust and find me credible as an expert in my field and that I'm really useless without the advice and support of more capable people around me e.g., parents, a husband. this, coupled with what I have seen as loving growing up, put together made it very very difficult to cut relationships that did not give me any fulfilment. I did not believe I deserve better, and worse, I cannot survive without some level of external support, no matter how unreliable that support is. it's abit warped because your POV as described requires someone to understand relationships as an exchange but that is not the experience of insecures. APs experience love as a one-way street, in which humans instinctively understand as unfair, but for APs, there is no way out of it, so it's frustrating and also resentment accumulating.
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Post by Nefertiti on Oct 16, 2019 8:34:48 GMT
I agree with mrob and faith. When I figured out my ex was FA, I never chased no matter how anxious I felt. I was patient with his cycles of distance and reconnection, and hoped that trust would build up gradually. I kinda loved his slow pace with things. I voiced any concerns I had, but picked my timing well. Deactivation is never a time to have heavy conversations. The nail in the coffin for that relationship was his approach to conflict resolution. I was already dealing with the stress of his cycles of distance, and during conflict he would stonewall and give the silent treatment, without ever explaining what his issue was exactly. This eventually progressed to unprovoked verbal abuse and personal attacks, followed by more stonewalling. I broke up with him after a few weeks of that behaviour. I still don't know what his problem was, he never said. Either he found someone else and wanted to pick a fight or there was some other mystery reason. Either way, its not how i want to be treated by someone I gave my heart to. Ohhh. I am so sorry that you went through that. Verbal abuse and personal attacks have not been an issue for us...yet. I can see that it could progress to that point especially if we spend a lot of time in close proximity. Abuse is a deal breaker for me - even verbal. The silent treatment. Yeah I know how that works. I used it a lot when I was in an abusive marriage. I would refuse to say a word for weeks on end. I practically blanked out my ex-husband. As if he ceased to exist. In my defence, I did it because I was trying to keep a lid on my emotions. The man just wouldn't stop with the harassment. Every day, every hour he was at home, I felt harassed. So much drama from him..always. I worried that if I engaged him, I would lose my mind, say horrible things that would result in getting beaten up once again. I avoided such an escalation because I knew that it would spell the end for us. A decision I didn't want to make at that time. So I shut up and erased him from my existence as best I could. In a way, I was protecting my ex-husband, the marriage and my family unit from my explosive feelings and the resultant break up. When I did decide to engage (because I could only sustain silence for so long), it got really ugly and I left him, never looked back. Perhaps that is what your FA was doing too. Maybe he thought that he was protecting the status quo, the relationship. I can understand the silent treatment as a way to gain control of oneself and maintain stability in the relationship. Couples have issues and the silent treatment approach is, in my view, a pretty calm albeit passive-aggressive way of handling things. What I can't understand is the verbal and/or physical abuse of someone you claim to love.
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Post by Nefertiti on Oct 16, 2019 9:10:50 GMT
He's opened up just fine by ignoring your attempts to communicate about your needs. His need is clear- the need to avoid. Secure behavior would be to accept his behavior as either conducive to a mature, mutual relationship or not conducive to a mature, mutual relationship, and make choices according to one's own boundaries, values, and priorities. Insecure behavior would be to make attempts beyond the ones you've already made to create a meaningful dialog, and then go about finding ways to get the non-responsive partner to change their behavior. So, you get to choose your own security or insecurity here, but you don't really have an option of influencing his. I recently wrote about the person who test drives a lemon, falls in love with it, and keeps driving it hoping it will become a better vehicle ( because they want it to run better and get them around, where they want to go.) Attachment, feelings, denial, and wishful thinking and multiple goes with a wrench likely won't fix a lemon. It's a good idea to choose a relationship partner who possesses the qualities that you desire instead of trying to elicit the desired qualities from someone who isn't displaying them consistently as you develop your relationship. That seems to be a consistent lesson learned here. Best of luck! This is a logical approach. And I thought that this is what I was doing all along. Having been in an abusive marriage (the only bad relationship I have ever had), I am weary of the fact that people can present themselves as one thing and behind closed doors, or in close proximity, reveal themselves to be something else altogether. I believe that my ex-husband is some type of sociopath with NPD and other PDs I do not know. How I didn't see that until two days after our honeymoon was over still baffles me. What threw me was that bf (current guy) is every social, has lots of friends (many mutual), is very vocal about his opinions and quite popular. At no point did I see the problem as one of emotional bonding. I have known him for almost a decade and never suspected that he has some form of anxiety or that he has issues expressing deep feelings. Basically, the man I have known for years and the one who showed up in the relationship are quite different. I don't know how to tell people's psychological make up without actually interacting with them at close quarters. He seemed pretty fine to me all those years. His secrecy about relationships is seen as being private by all our friends. So far I know only one male friend of his who seems to have figured some things out while everybody else sees him as near perfect. His friend told me his views about my bf early on in the relationship. Bear in mind that neither of us knew anything about attachment styles at the time. We just discussed it as if they were "quirks". Bf's friend told me how bf has these odd beliefs around women. For example, that the downfall of every great man was caused by a woman. Huh? I just thought that was a not-so-well thought out belief that can easily be corrected with facts. No biggie. This is a super intelligent guy we are talking about. How can anyone with brains hold such a stupid belief? That's what I thought and consequently dismissed it as a non-issue. Then his friend casually mentioned that bf doesn't believe in relationships. Like they are not a priority. That bf doesn't have the need to love and be loved in a normal romantic type relationship. Again, huh? That wasn't the vibe I was getting. Bf was super romantic and very much in need of love as far as I could tell. The most important thing he did say is that bf is incapable of knowing how other people feel. That was a red flag right there. And I noted it. I guess that while I knew it was a biggie, I didn't quite know how much of a biggie it was because it is alien to me. It didn't register in my mind what that meant for us. Had I known of avoidants and the way they fight feelings (theirs and those of other people) at the time, I would have realised that bf is one and possibly not gone into this situation in the first place. I would hope so, at least.
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Post by Nefertiti on Oct 16, 2019 10:15:50 GMT
I just re-read about the month long disappearance. I simply cannot imagine reconnecting with someone who ghosts. Why do people give that a chance? Why is that not seen as a clear statement about the level of disregard someone is willing to show you, when they just disappear? I am mystified about returning to someone who would treat me that way. And if it was them that tried to return, they wouldn't be able to get around the block that I'd have in place. I just don't understand this, has it ever, ever in the history of relationships, gone well after ghosting? I don't think I have ever heard of a relationship that wasn't just absolute crap that included the tolerance of disappearing. I honestly don't know the definitive answer to why I did not see the ghosting as total disregard and bad enough to warrant a total block. Especially after it happened the second time. The first time I did react by disengaging. Accepted it as a rejection and moved on. But I was pissed! Truly angry. Very hurt. Being ghosted and ghosting happened to me only two times before. In one case, the guy ghosted me after a 6 month period. We have never talked again. He doesn't exist in my world and I never see him. Even if I did, I would treat him like someone I don't know. The second one was a guy with zero ambition, zero guts...one who always played the victim. Blamed everyone for his problems so that he could justify doing nothing about them. I couldn't stand it. I told him that we were incompatible 2 months into the relationship. He decided to ignore me and continue communicating like nothing was wrong. I simply ghosted him. I wouldn't let him with 10 feet of me. To me ghosting means someone literally disappears...forever. This was not the case with bf. He disengaged from me, yes. I did notice that in those periods he also disengaged a bit from social media. He would check in but was not as active. Our mutual friends have also always noted his periods of absence. Sometimes he disappears for weeks and no one will see or hear from him. Then suddenly he will reappear all jovial and very available. We all believed that he was busy because he has a very demanding job and travels a lot. Maybe his ghosting me wasn't that unfamiliar to me. Ever since my text the other night, he has been off social media completely which is unusual. I guess he has gone into full blown hiding now.
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