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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 11:06:52 GMT
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Post by Nefertiti on Oct 16, 2019 11:08:55 GMT
I just re-read about the month long disappearance. I simply cannot imagine reconnecting with someone who ghosts. Why do people give that a chance? Why is that not seen as a clear statement about the level of disregard someone is willing to show you, when they just disappear? I am mystified about returning to someone who would treat me that way. And if it was them that tried to return, they wouldn't be able to get around the block that I'd have in place. I just don't understand this, has it ever, ever in the history of relationships, gone well after ghosting? I don't think I have ever heard of a relationship that wasn't just absolute crap that included the tolerance of disappearing. I think for some insecures, that is all they’ve known their entire life based on parental behaviors most likely. Their parents were available and then unavailable and then available again, as and when they have resources or bandwidth. For example, they might be loving and present during the holidays, then emotionally and mentally absent when work starts and gets busy. as children, we were told to be understanding when parents get busy and have no time and energy to meet your silly needs for attention, and so we just need to wait till the period is over. That is construed as love - understanding and waiting for someone to have time and space for you. Thus, this inconsistency is “normal”, and so ghosting is “normal” and “understandable”. The nuance between “needing space” and “disappearing” is often lost/equated for insecures, and so ghosting is accepted; waiting for someone you love to resurface and come to you IS considered loving behaviors that demonstrate our love for the other party. How else would we then show that we have tolerance and patience and love for the other party’s difficulties? It’s warped logic, but it is what we learnt as being loving - accepting the disappearance because we are understanding of other people’s lack of resources for us. This is also why you see APs in particular making excuses and making up narratives for all the disappearances. This is very insightful. Very. I have been thinking that since bf has this need to disappear and recharge, perhaps I should just accept it as it is. Because I actually like it. The question now is why. Am I being an AP or is this a result of my own needs in a relationship right now? |
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Post by 8675309 on Oct 16, 2019 11:43:45 GMT
Him not responding to the email is your answer. Hes not going to meet your needs for adult communication. You cant have a healthy relationship with him. Get out now.
I dealt with this type of thing with my FA, I let him go romantically. He couldn't even meet my basic normal healthy needs for more consistent communication and seeing each other once a week. In realty these two things are very minimal needs.
Dont stay in another toxic relationship.
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Post by Nefertiti on Oct 16, 2019 11:56:27 GMT
The trouble with that POV is that it must surely only be an AP that sees remaining available as an act of "love" . It leaves the AP wide open to exploitation and objectification, and it seems like the person who ghosts and returns sees the faithful AP as gullible and easily manipulated. All the ghoster has to do is express appreciation for waiting on them and then they are back, welcomed with open arms because the AP is so relieved, and ghoster even gwts catered to and tippy toed around. It's completely enabling to take a ghoster back, especially under the guise of being tolerant and loving and patient. This means, no negative consequences for such harmful behavior, in fact, the whole thing just lowers the bar permanently from what I've observed here. Even (self aware) FA's admit that when they go back, it's not with real feelings, it's a fix of some sorts. I think one FA wrote here that they knew it is too ballsy to expect to be able to return after disappearing. So this is just a really self destructive mindset, to tolerate it. Ouch! yes, you're exactly right. and that is a very painful thing for APs as well, especially when they're criticized for the little love that they can give in the form of patience and tolerance for everyone else's problems. That is what they're taught - you're lovable only when you're not being selfish, and if you can't have space for people you love, then you're selfish and bad. no matter what they do - stay or walk, either way they're fucked, unlovable, selfish and unempathetic people. it's very tough because no matter what you do, it's deemed bad i.e., you're a bad person fundamentally and therefore, not worthy of loving - all the relationships are empirical proof of that fact. those who are heavy APs generally do not have any semblance of healthy relationships to model after growing up, so there is no other source to turn to if leaving a bad one, and thus feels like there is no other choice. I'm not sure about other people, but a part of my narrative, despite my many successes, was that I don't know anything and that nobody will trust and find me credible as an expert in my field and that I'm really useless without the advice and support of more capable people around me e.g., parents, a husband. this, coupled with what I have seen as loving growing up, put together made it very very difficult to cut relationships that did not give me any fulfilment. I did not believe I deserve better, and worse, I cannot survive without some level of external support, no matter how unreliable that support is. it's abit warped because your POV as described requires someone to understand relationships as an exchange but that is not the experience of insecures. APs experience love as a one-way street, in which humans instinctively understand as unfair, but for APs, there is no way out of it, so it's frustrating and also resentment accumulating. This is an interesting explanation of how APs think. Sad and quite the lose-lose situation. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 11:59:30 GMT
What I see here is a very typical pattern.
When an AP's attachment figure (I can't say partner because that is not what is real on these boards) is absent, the AP spends copious amounts of time and energy to analyze the partner, rationalize, and idealize (or vilify as the case may be, it fluctuates). It is as if this maintains a pseudo connection to the partner even in their absence. In fact, the entire "relationship" seems to be pseudo, in that the emotional empathy and connection from the partner is missing and therefore somehow deemed by the AP to be not a requisite to a relationship. It is lacking and therefore it is dispensed with, in hope that it will come on line at a later time in spite of all evidence to the contrary.
This is in line with the description I've read of the fundamental wound - To long is to love.
I've also read that when love is actually available, the AP rejects it because it doesn't fit the narrative of - I want, therefore I can't have.
It's all an illusion that serves the insecurity, not the relationship.
OP, I understand this is confusing for you, but please go back and read how you have talked yourself into being ok with this. And, if you are ok, that's your prerogative but think of needing support and being ghosted. It happens to real people, with real feelings, and real needs. You seem determined in this thread to find a way to cope with the absence and remain invested. That will bite you, but time reveals all and I wish you well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 12:00:52 GMT
To add, I'm not viewing OP as secure, but as AP.
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Post by 8675309 on Oct 16, 2019 12:12:42 GMT
I think the OP could be secure, she can openly express needs shes just very triggered right now, even secures can be triggered. My FA triggered me and if anything Id swing more DA. The triggering did stop once I understood attachment though.
I think sometimes for us secures when we are triggered in a way we have never been before it can take a minute to regroup. Being secure doesn't mean we wont act a fool sometimes. We are human. For us we are out of our element. Its how I stumbled on attachment trying to figure out what was wrong with me when all the sudden at mid 40's some guy is making me feel like a needy ball that Ive never felt before.
Secure doesn't mean you never act stupid, put up with more than you usually would, become triggered, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 12:48:22 GMT
I think the OP could be secure, she can openly express needs shes just very triggered right now, even secures can be triggered. My FA triggered me and if anything Id swing more DA. The triggering did stop once I understood attachment though. I think sometimes for us secures when we are triggered in a way we have never been before it can take a minute to regroup. Being secure doesn't mean we wont act a fool sometimes. We are human. For us we are out of our element. Its how I stumbled on attachment trying to figure out what was wrong with me when all the sudden at mid 40's some guy is making me feel like a needy ball that Ive never felt before. Secure doesn't mean you never act stupid, put up with more than you usually would, become triggered, etc. I understand but I'm not talking a general style. I'm referring to the status in this relationship, real time dynamics. The way this has played out has the OP anxious and preoccupied in a self-denying narrative. This isn't a judgment against character but an observation of the roles involved. My thought is that the real position in the present moment is the one to address. or analyze. The first post compared to the last looks like a progression to address the cognitive dissonance of being in a relationship with someone who is absent? |
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Post by Nefertiti on Oct 16, 2019 12:54:08 GMT
Thank you for this. Have watched more videos. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 13:19:39 GMT
I think for some insecures, that is all they’ve known their entire life based on parental behaviors most likely. Their parents were available and then unavailable and then available again, as and when they have resources or bandwidth. For example, they might be loving and present during the holidays, then emotionally and mentally absent when work starts and gets busy. as children, we were told to be understanding when parents get busy and have no time and energy to meet your silly needs for attention, and so we just need to wait till the period is over. That is construed as love - understanding and waiting for someone to have time and space for you. Thus, this inconsistency is “normal”, and so ghosting is “normal” and “understandable”. The nuance between “needing space” and “disappearing” is often lost/equated for insecures, and so ghosting is accepted; waiting for someone you love to resurface and come to you IS considered loving behaviors that demonstrate our love for the other party. How else would we then show that we have tolerance and patience and love for the other party’s difficulties? It’s warped logic, but it is what we learnt as being loving - accepting the disappearance because we are understanding of other people’s lack of resources for us. This is also why you see APs in particular making excuses and making up narratives for all the disappearances. This is very insightful. Very. I have been thinking that since bf has this need to disappear and recharge, perhaps I should just accept it as it is. Because I actually like it. The question now is why. Am I being an AP or is this a result of my own needs in a relationship right now? sorry, but I'm abit confused. what's the exact question? the question of why you actually like the fact that he is gone? |
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Post by mrob on Oct 16, 2019 15:35:12 GMT
This conversation is interesting. @inmourning the one thing your insecure attachment has as a positive is consistency. On the whole there’s no cycling, no flip flopping. Same with APs. I would see both parties in this as FAs, but each triggering the other in the opposite way. I say this because of the OP’s treatment of her ex husband and the way she is triggered anxious now, but doesn’t mind the absence of her partner, and the current partner’s going and coming back.
I’d like to point out to all insecurely attached here that crappy aspects of each of our attachment styles can be seen by another person as abuse, as nasty, especially when seen through eyes unaware of attachment. Criticise at your own peril.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 16:25:59 GMT
This conversation is interesting. @inmourning the one thing your insecure attachment has as a positive is consistency. On the whole there’s no cycling, no flip flopping. Same with APs. I would see both parties in this as FAs, but each triggering the other in the opposite way. I say this because of the OP’s treatment of her ex husband and the way she is triggered anxious now, but doesn’t mind the absence of her partner, and the current partner’s going and coming back. I’d like to point out to all insecurely attached here that crappy aspects of each of our attachment styles can be seen by another person as abuse, as nasty, especially when seen through eyes unaware of attachment. Criticise at your own peril. I agree with you about the FA assessment, also. Triggered AP with avoidance and then deactivating a bit to address the abandonment. I don't see criticism happening as much as analysis though. It may be that the presence of shame that @shiningstar mentioned in her description of the thought process would cause an insecure to interpret other's views as being a "bad person" even when the whole of the conversation is actually aimed at pointing out self abandonment as a response to abandonment. I think it should be recalled that there are a few important premises that we need to hold in mind: 1)We have distorted thinking due to traumatic conditioning (this is sad and worthy of compassion ) 2)We behave in ways that are injurious to self and others based on this traumatic conditioning 3) The notion of self worth, i.e. being worthy based on being born, lovable as a human as is, is a real thing and can be revived as often as necessary to gain a more balanced perspective 4) Observing self destructive patterns is not akin to shaming them, and in fact can be helpful in correcting them if that's the intention My analysis here is not meant as a criticism, for sure, as I am sensitive to the damage done by ghosting. I've made very little commentary on the person she is involved with and kept my commentary to her own statements and thought processes and how they align with other AP perspectives and distortions. The goal is to provide some objectivity and point out the self abandonment, not to criticize but to hopefully encourage some understanding of how to best nurture and take care of her self. I have no idea about the internal workings of the person she is involved with, as they are not here to represent themselves. But I do see that the thought process at play leaves her wide open to exploitation, from anyone that is malicious or not. An unlocked door can be opened by friend and foe alike- it's just an unlocked door. Equal opportunity entrance. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 16, 2019 18:13:43 GMT
Ohhh. I am so sorry that you went through that. Verbal abuse and personal attacks have not been an issue for us...yet. I can see that it could progress to that point especially if we spend a lot of time in close proximity. Abuse is a deal breaker for me - even verbal. Thank you  I'm sorry to hear about your marriage; I can see why your current bf seemed appealing, especially since you'd known him for a long time. Guys with NPD can be so very intrusive and controlling; I can imagine that the distance and pace of an FA would seem very peaceful and non intrusive after all that. Dealing with avoidant distancing strategies in the long run is hard though  Like you, I thought it was fair to accept the cycles of distance, since its a core part of what my ex needed, and not something that can be changed. Our issues started when his distancing strategies started to include some of these:www.loveaddictionhelp.com/12-distancing-strategies-the-love-avoidant-uses-to-avoid-intimacy |
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Post by alexandra on Oct 16, 2019 18:31:57 GMT
serenity, that's a good list. I'm not crazy about all the comments around the list (for example, it doesn't mention DAs also could have been totally neglected by parental figures, and I think the tone overall takes sides), but in regards to the list itself, I've experienced absolutely all of those things except the flirting with others / cheating from my avoidant partners.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 16, 2019 18:55:42 GMT
caro, exactly, that was what I meant by takes sides. Phantom ex is another version of "the one." It definitely happens. It wouldn't be a constant thing, but when some of my avoidant exes would be in the middle of distancing deactivation, I'd suddenly hear about their phantom ex with great nostalgia and disappointment in any differences between us. It's to create distance while deflecting responsibility (ie it's you and not me because I don't remember having this problem with my ex).
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I'm sorry to hear about your marriage; I can see why your current bf seemed appealing, especially since you'd known him for a long time. Guys with NPD can be so very intrusive and controlling; I can imagine that the distance and pace of an FA would seem very peaceful and non intrusive after all that. 
Like you, I thought it was fair to accept the cycles of distance, since its a core part of what my ex needed, and not something that can be changed. Our issues started when his distancing strategies started to include some of these: