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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 17:24:16 GMT
Also- people are diagnosing attachment styles and applying cookie cutter interpretations.
Deactivation, for me, does not include feelings of being unworthy or unlovable. It is simply a shutting down of attachment. A general sedation or feeling. Coming out of that, is difficult but NOT AT ALL something I need soothing for. In fact, around deactivation I see us all as hapless humans stuck in a loop of futility and that includes my attachment figure as well. Having that person come at me to soothe me or reassure me wouldn't and couldn't be taken seriously, because even minimal intelligence allows me to see dysfunction and vulnerably in them as well. I don't need a hero, I just need to press on.
Social support helps me, the connections I have that are supportive and compassionate help me regulate- but I'm not looking for a parent in a partner. I don't know how it is for other deactivators but I don't see things the way that anxious posters do when I look at this. And, the person I deactivate with is not the best source of support for me personally. I want to engage with them on a more even keel, not on a dramatic roller coaster. I have to get healing on my own to be in a good partnership, actually.
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Post by nyc718 on Oct 29, 2019 17:39:13 GMT
If you’re in a romantic situation with them, you can’t be the one to help them. Also they’re not being ignored because they are unworthy of love. They are being ignored for their bad behavior. Answering them is a form of enabling and reinforcement. I don’t see anyone who still has feelings still and is AP as capable of having the adult conversation and walking away. They don’t need the conversation really. They know what they did. The conversation is an opportunity for them to do it again. You also can’t engage someone who is acting childish with an adult conversation. I get that, and I’m not saying you’re wrong... and I fully get that I’ll prob get eaten alive for even asking as that’s typical for anyone asking or challenging stuff like this here - and anyone can just slap the AP label on me and there we go, it’s discounted. But I think it’s a very absolute way of thinking. Sure this person knows what they did is wrong, but unless they’re narcissistic and/or it’s intentional evil or they’re self aware, they likely have no idea what’s going on. It’s like reinforcing a disability... as they freeze based on past trauma / their nervous system. And yes it’s acting childish but from what I’ve read here from FAs and research, it’s uncontrollable. I’m not saying take them back and shower them with praise, absolutely not, but for me (maybe I’m the only one) if I really cared about someone’s wellbeing, I’d want to have a calm adult conversation. I’m also 100% not saying a romantic partner can or should help them and should say what it is (or they think it is) and the romantic partner is not their therapist - and shouldn’t be. But what about just being like “hey, I’ve noticed that you pull away when we get closer - and this time you ghosted me- and as someone who cares about you a lot that hurts me and isn’t respectful. I’m not saying that to shame you, I’m saying that because I want to understand what’s going on for you and help you work through it.” That is of course ONLY if they come to you and want to work things out. I don’t know, not that exactly as I wrote that in 3 seconds but you get my point. I agree with you caro I am not in the strict black and white camp of "if someone ghosts you then that is JUST IT, IT'S OVER" I mean, we're talking about someone who is in a particular state, correct? So for THEM, they aren't seeing things the way we are seeing it. So I'm kind of confused why we should be treating them as if they SHOULD know better, when isn't the whole point of this place that they are operating on a subconscious level that they aren't in tune with? This is why I can be a little more forgiving and know that this really isn't intentional. I'm sure someone will say well you must not be secure of you accept that behavior. I don't agree. If it's someone deactivating, they aren't merely ghosting for the fun of it, right? They are dealing with all the mess inside that they can't understand, they just know they need to get away. Perhaps it's because I am a mom and I have patience with my kid who operates as a kid. Sometimes he just doesn't know yet how to act in certain situations, and I have to teach him. My FA bf, although an adult, IS operating from a subconscious place from his childhood. That doesn't mean he is a child or that I am his mother, it means that as an adult, I can see and not necessarily take offense as to why he acting the way he is, and because I love him, I can be patient and try (if he allows me to) to help him, knowing FULL WELL that he may not want my help or want to help himself at all. I think if anyone chooses to simply walk away at the first sign of dysfunction, I would not judge that because I cannot tell you what your limitations and capacity are, but you also can't judge anyone else if their limits and capacity are a little further reaching. I know my limits, and I will say they haven't been reached....yet. But they could be, and if they are, I will know that I tried. I don't try with everyone, but I try with some people., I choose to try with him. I am an adult and I know that the stats are slim that things will change in my favor, but as we see here on this board, there ARE FA people who ARE trying to change so they can have better relationships. If I open up the door for him to see this attachment style that has hindered him, even if we don't end up together in the long run, I won't be angry about that. I want him in my life, but I AM secure enough to know that if he's not in my life, I won't die. I will hurt, but I won't die. My life was great before him, and it will be great if he's not in my life, but I choose to try because I WANT him in my life. |
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Post by nyc718 on Oct 29, 2019 17:53:49 GMT
Hi Stu, Thank you for the update; it seems like your instincts about her being FA were spot on. Its very sad that now you're in a position of knowing she'll hurt you all over again if you reconnect  I think you have the right approach in mind, of keeping a lot of distance. But be wary of the hooks that drag you back into the toxic cycle. It seems like intimate conversations and dancing are hooks for you, so try to cut those things out for now. The girl broke your heart and hurt you very much; there's every indication that she will do it again. You can't trust her not to hurt you, and if you just take her back after all that, you're showing her that ghosting you is just fine. Stu it can get a lot worse. The more you invest, the more painful the disappearances feel. So far she has demonstrated that she will create distance by flirting with other guys, and ghost you for months. As painful as these are, the distancing strategies can be anything they know will cause you pain. Savage attacks on your self worth. Cheating. Ignoring you. Fading and breadcrumbing for months. Ghosting right after a period of intimacy. You can never tell how the deactivation will happen next, only that they will happen, and probably closeness and good times will trigger it. All I can recommend is each time you interact with her, ask yourself, can I trust this person? If the answer is no, stay true to your real feelings, and protect yourself. You are absolutely right. And that's why I'm very leary and keeping my distance and not allowing myself to get hooked back in. I never confirmed if she was flirting with other guys in front of me. Because it could have been a friend or who knows, but I was going to bring that up to her if she tried to talk to me about things again. I would never try and seriously date someone who would flirt with other dudes in front of my face, that's beyond off putting to me and a complete turn off. But I don't feel need to talk about anything with her if she doesn't try and open a conversation herself, no point since I'm not letting myself get close again without her doing that anyways. And I'm really not interested in getting dragged around again from someone who isn't getting a proper hold and accountability of their personal issues. So there isn't any going back from me unless she directly stated she wanted to have a heart to heart or serious conversation herself and put in all the effort for that. Because at this point I don't have anything I need or want to do otherwise. And feel very much in control of my emotions as well. You sound like you are on your way to healing, and I am happy to hear that. I know this has caused you a lot of anguish. |
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Post by nyc718 on Oct 29, 2019 18:02:30 GMT
caro I am not in the strict black and white camp of "if someone ghosts you then that is JUST IT, IT'S OVER" I mean, we're talking about someone who is in a particular state, correct? So for THEM, they aren't seeing things the way we are seeing it. So I'm kind of confused why we should be treating them as if they SHOULD know better, when isn't the whole point of this place that they are operating on a subconscious level that they aren't in tune with? This is why I can be a little more forgiving and know that this really isn't intentional. I'm not sure what you mean by it's a burden to them if I am forgiving? What I mean by forgiving (in my particular situation) is that it's not enough for me to just walk away, though it might be for someone else. And my definition of forgiveness is what you did was wrong but I will not hold that against you. Doesn't mean it's ok or that I want you to do it again, it means I am not holding it against you. I MAY hold it against you IF you do it again, but perhaps this time I will forgive you. My ex husband pulled some particular things that I will never forgive him for. I don't hate him, and we get along fine, I never want anything bad to ever happen to him ever, but I will never forgive him for some of those things that he did, it will never be okay. So I guess it depends on each of our definitions of forgiveness? EDIT: I was responding to janedoe, though it shows up as a response to caro |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 18:15:02 GMT
I think the suggestion of having candid adult conversations is a moot point, simply because those conversations are not happening, at least not from what I've been reading.
In the kindest way possible I want to point out that no conversations are being had, at last updates,, and even simple expressions of interest in in-person meetings and missing has been second guessed. The suggestion from a therapist (?) was reach out and ask "How are you?" in a few days, in one situation here. This situation has involved silent periods in the past. It may be that the candid conversations have taken place and I'm unaware.
This isn't an attack; it's not shaming or anything like that. But these candid adult convos just aren't happening. Or at they? Maybe I'm not in the loop, I know people don't share everything blow by blow.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 18:19:39 GMT
Also caro you're welcome for the info on my deactivations- it's very interesting stuff to see how it looks from the outside versus what happens internally. There ARE quite a few differences in thought process between the avoidant styles, and that's why I mention I don't know how it is for others. There are so many other things I could share about this, but I do that with my therapist and his colleagues because it's been super cool to just share with people who really really understand it. I'm going through a lot of internal processes around all this stuff and it's neat. |
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Post by nyc718 on Oct 29, 2019 18:22:40 GMT
I meant if you continue to have expectations. That is the burden. I took that as not saying it’s over and calling it quits, which carries with it expectations of the other person. Not that that is a bad thing. It’s completely natural. But that person can’t fulfill them especially if they aren’t even aware that ghosting is completely unacceptable human behavior. I think we all have to get to that place where we say, ok, it's completely over, but we all reach that place at different times, depending on if our limits have been reached. I am not at the place of calling it quits. I could get there, or he could get there, or he could already be there and I don't know it. I won't be contacting him though, so I guess if I never hear from him again then I will certainly know! But again, if a person is deactivating for self preservation, why should we expect them to put someone else's feelings first above themselves? Their ghosting isn't something they can think of from another point of view in that way, they can only think of it as, I have to get away, right? Unless you are telling me that a FA can in fact be fully aware that yes it's not right, I am wrong, and I shouldn't be doing this, and I need to make it right once I feel better? Because from what I understand, they simply can't understand that it's not acceptable to someone else as they are only able to think about what's acceptable for them at the moment to survive. |
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Post by nyc718 on Oct 29, 2019 18:24:22 GMT
I think the suggestion of having candid adult conversations is a moot point, simply because those conversations are not happening, at least not from what I've been reading. In the kindest way possible I want to point out that no conversations are being had, at last updates,, and even simple expressions of interest in in-person meetings and missing has been second guessed. The suggestion from a therapist (?) was reach out and ask "How are you?" in a few days, in one situation here. This situation has involved silent periods in the past. It may be that the candid conversations have taken place and I'm unaware. This isn't an attack; it's not shaming or anything like that. But these candid adult convos just aren't happening. Or at they? Maybe I'm not in the loop, I know people don't share everything blow by blow. It's not happening with me because he is in deactivation, and I am trying to respect the space that he seems to need. So reaching out doesn't seem to be the right thing to do at the moment. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 18:29:21 GMT
I think the suggestion of having candid adult conversations is a moot point, simply because those conversations are not happening, at least not from what I've been reading. In the kindest way possible I want to point out that no conversations are being had, at last updates,, and even simple expressions of interest in in-person meetings and missing has been second guessed. The suggestion from a therapist (?) was reach out and ask "How are you?" in a few days, in one situation here. This situation has involved silent periods in the past. It may be that the candid conversations have taken place and I'm unaware. This isn't an attack; it's not shaming or anything like that. But these candid adult convos just aren't happening. Or at they? Maybe I'm not in the loop, I know people don't share everything blow by blow. It's not happening with me because he is in deactivation, and I am trying to respect the space that he seems to need. So reaching out doesn't seem to be the right thing to do at the moment. Yes, I agree that it would be useless. I'd only encourage you to approach it with independent strength and inner beauty when the time comes, that's all. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 18:36:29 GMT
Also, in closing on this, I just feel, as someone who deactivates, if it was so bad I ghosted (😖) I am absolutely, 1000000% sure I would not be relationship material and would have to spend a good long time working it out before I could sustain anything good for me or anyone else. That's one reason for my hard line, in addition to just firmly believing it's too unhealthy to negotiate. Like an active drug addiction, it would need to be seriously addressed outside of the relationship before re-entry. But, to each their own.
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Post by nyc718 on Oct 29, 2019 18:55:56 GMT
Also, in closing on this, I just feel, as someone who deactivates, if it was so bad I ghosted (😖) I am absolutely, 1000000% sure I would not be relationship material and would have to spend a good long time working it out before I could sustain anything good for me or anyone else. That's one reason for my hard line, in addition to just firmly believing it's too unhealthy to negotiate. Like an active drug addiction, it would need to be seriously addressed outside of the relationship before re-entry. But, to each their own. Okay, but you are coming from a DA perspective, am I correct? So it's a little different from an FA, and even FAs fall all over the spectrum, right? I was ghosted by a DA before, and when he ghosted, he never returned (which at this point I see as a bullet I dodged). The FAs I knew always swung back around eventually. Perhaps not in the time it needed to be to reconnect, but they all swung around eventually. I don't know where my FAs head is, but I know that at the moment, I don't want to contact him. It would be counterproductive for me to do so. |
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Post by nyc718 on Oct 29, 2019 19:04:23 GMT
Also, in closing on this, I just feel, as someone who deactivates, if it was so bad I ghosted (😖) I am absolutely, 1000000% sure I would not be relationship material and would have to spend a good long time working it out before I could sustain anything good for me or anyone else. That's one reason for my hard line, in addition to just firmly believing it's too unhealthy to negotiate. Like an active drug addiction, it would need to be seriously addressed outside of the relationship before re-entry. But, to each their own. Okay, but you are coming from a DA perspective, am I correct? So it's a little different from an FA, and even FAs fall all over the spectrum, right? I was ghosted by a DA before, and when he ghosted, he never returned (which at this point I see as a bullet I dodged). The FAs I knew always swung back around eventually. Perhaps not in the time it needed to be to reconnect, but they all swung around eventually. I don't know where my FAs head is, but I know that at the moment, I don't want to contact him. It would be counterproductive for me to do so. And as I write this, my FA is reaching out to me. Sometimes we know our FAs better than anyone else. I am going to take some time before I reply, and we'll go from there... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 19:09:11 GMT
caro, a ton of posts on this thread iterated and reiterated that we are all working on this, so really- if you feel that my comments are inappropriate orp hard on you please don't engage me. No one called you an idiot. That's how you and others speak about yourselves. And, I'm not the sole voice being skeptical about this ghosting thing. I am going to just say what I have to say and we can disagree. I see people more frustrated with fellow members here than with the people ghosting them. It is what it is, no one can change it.
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Post by dhali on Oct 29, 2019 19:27:39 GMT
But again, if a person is deactivating for self preservation, why should we expect them to put someone else's feelings first above themselves? Their ghosting isn't something they can think of from another point of view in that way, they can only think of it as, I have to get away, right? Unless you are telling me that a FA can in fact be fully aware that yes it's not right, I am wrong, and I shouldn't be doing this, and I need to make it right once I feel better? Because from what I understand, they simply can't understand that it's not acceptable to someone else as they are only able to think about what's acceptable for them at the moment to survive. Umm... You're doing some amazing gymnastics here. "Their ghosting isn't something they can think of from another point of view in that way, they can only think of it as, I have to get away, right?" Wrong. The certainly can. You're making allowances no one should have. "Unless you are telling me that a FA can in fact be fully aware that yes it's not right, I am wrong, and I shouldn't be doing this, and I need to make it right once I feel better?" They ARE fully aware oif what they are doing. They've just been allowed to do it. With no consequences. So it's OK now. They are also cowards, and they know that too. "Because from what I understand, they simply can't understand that it's not acceptable to someone else as they are only able to think about what's acceptable for them at the moment to survive." I think that's what you want to believe. What you wrote is not documented anywhere. People are aware of their actions. They may or may not have empathy about it, but they are aware. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 19:49:37 GMT
caro , a ton of posts on this thread iterated and reiterated that we are all working on this, so really- if you feel that my comments are inappropriate orp hard on you please don't engage me. No one called you an idiot. That's how you and others speak about yourselves. And, I'm not the sole voice being skeptical about this ghosting thing. I am going to just say what I have to say and we can disagree. I see people more frustrated with fellow members here than with the people ghosting them. It is what it is, no one can change it. @inmourning , I don't feel like your comments are inappropriate or too hard on me. I responded to your post because I was acknowledging what points you made that were factual and what isn't, plus showing my process that it's sometimes very messy itself. It's harder to not be defensive based on historical tones but I am not meaning to sound defensive. I don't think we should all agree, and I think disagreement is healthy. I am writing here to understand, work through things, and see different sides. I never said anyone else called me an idiot  I don't think I'm an idiot, but a lot of things that have been said today make me feel like it and of course I question that — just as a human in a confusing situation. Finally, I said all along that I don't think ghosting is right, I think it's disrespectful, etc... I brought up the point I did because it's hard to wrap your head around what to do if you want to show compassion for someone when they do something they have no control over — of course if that's what's going on. Lastly, I am frustrated with the person who ghosted me. But I am here trying to understand it, him, and mostly myself. Ok, good you don't feel I'm being hard on you because I have no place to do that from. When I say that deactivating makes me believe that we are all hapless humans in a loop of futility, I mean that, no one is better than the other we are all just flailing around. So, also when I am not deactivating I am well aware of the universal difficulty of the human condition. There are many of us who have had children in the midst of the pain, the confusion, the patterns. Oh, the humility that comes with awareness, especially when you see the generational pain play out. It's worldwide, and no one is immune. Maybe that's why I don't ghost, it's ABSOLUTELY why I work hard to heal and grow. But it hasn't come without the dread of feeling like I'm an idiot, at times. The reality is, we aren't idiots. We are perpetuating pain from our families until we aren't. So, my point- I think we all have pretty much shit our pants when we have seen what we've been up to, at some point in life. Anyone who claims to not have had a painful revelation like that just hasn't had it YET. I'm happy and humbled to say, my children and I talk about this, a lot. We work it out. We clash at times and then we come together and understand more. So, all is not lost no matter what. I just shared with another poster privately that my teen daughter asked me again for one of the attachment site links (Diane Poole Heller) so she could check her standing as she goes through her junior year of not dating. Lol. She has shared this all with her girlfriends, they talk about it too. With all the information out there on the net abo it dating and relationships, I am glad that there is really good, helpful stuff like this. In my house we all are human and open about our blind spots. We don't have scapegoats, golden children, lost children, none of that. Those crazy sick roles. I feel good about doing better than my parents did and I'm glad to have found the way out of all that. At home we are just a crew. So that is how I see this kind of stuff here but it's a bunch of random strangers so you never know when stuff is going to go sideways, at least I don't. I digress. You're going to be ok since you're going through this eyes open. Who knows what the process will entail for you personally but don't beat yourself up. |
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I don't think I'm an idiot, but a lot of things that have been said today make me feel like it and of course I question that — just as a human in a confusing situation.