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Post by stu on Oct 29, 2019 2:50:18 GMT
Heres the thing about those tests though. When someone is not triggered they will generally test more secure based on how they feel people are expected to act, or how they feel when they aren't having their attachment systems activated or de activated. I think that's what is hard to test in a binary way. Because people will change into a different version of themselves when those patterns and triggers take over. And having those patterns and triggers not worked through yet is what makes someone prone to being an insecure attachment style. I don't think people are going to test as insecure as they are actually capabable of being unless they are very down the rabbit hole, or very unaware. According to most mental health experts I've known, Triggers formed under the age of 7, and moreso the younger the age of the child, are generally imprinted. I think its a bit of a myth that you should `undo them' in order to have healthy romantic relationships and that they automatically `take over' and control your behaviour (unless you are mentally ill). You can choose your behavioral and mental responses to them,as well as who you get involved with romantically, that's what CBT therapy, mindfulness and other therapeutic practices are all about. I would never expect an FA in my romantic life to `undo his triggers' and stop needing cycles of distance. What I believe an FA can do is communicate and behave respectfully, and challenge their negative mindset through therapy. My first ex does this all the time in therapy (especially challenging his mindset about people and himself), and works hard on himself. Second one is probably too narcissistic to do that. That's all true of course, but what happens when someone gets triggered and then completely alters thekr perception and or attachment to you? If they are working through their challenges with self work, and being more self aware and challenging the old mechanisms that keep them feeling "safe", that's great and it shows progress and that over time they would have those triggers less and less until they can retrain their nervous system that it is no longer needed. And then at some point in time they won't have those same triggers come up anymore. Being able to communicate and need periods of distance is okay, or if someone is AP and asks for a bit extra re assurance in a healthy way because the are having a bit of struggle is also okay. What im pointing to though is when someone is unaware about their patterns and cycles to the point they can't help but act them out when they come over. Even if they had awareness of certain things prior or are somewhat aware in the meantime. Their mind and subconscious could come up with all kinds of reasons to justify and rationalize the behavior. Being based off old wiring from childhood that kept some one either feeling safe by de activation , or needing to reach out to others for self soothing. They are coping strategies and survival skills that helped a child in a confusing or chaotic childhood situation. Where they were not able to be fully autonomous and we're dependent on parents who were absent, abusive, unavailable, inconsistent , or whatever the case. Also the effects even happening as an infant when needs were not being met and affected the attachment to primary caregivers before even toddler hood. What I have noticed is that people who are unaware will fall into the same patterns and cycles when they are triggered or have set circumstances occur that set everything off. Some will do this with no awareness at all about what's going on , other then feeling fear and danger and going about finding ways to quelch that as they have done before. Self soothing, re assurance seeking, distancing, shut down, etc. Then there are those who become slightly more aware and see what's going on with them, recognize it's abnormal but the emotional impulse is so strong they can't help but act it out anyways even while having a degree of awareness during all of it. There are also people like my ex fa who have self awareness and try to work on themselves too. But then when the triggers or set circumstances happen, even though there was the awareness that things weren't right and that they were trying to address change. The subconscious takes over and the de activation happens where she follows that narrative no matter what reality might be, to her what the subconcsiius is saying to keep de activated, rules. And then the slow or sometimes rapid process of full recognition of patterns and cycles and then risking the unknown and being out of your own comfort zone to fully face and over come everything. It's not to say there will never be another trigger or felt patern come up for someone again. It's just at some point people separate their sense of identity and awareness from it enough, that a certain point in time they can see things for what they are when it happens and choose to do what THEY want to do, rather then what the old conditioning is pulling someone to do as a means of old coping skills and survival mechanisms. Through therapy, mindfulness, meditation, and self work. You are able to have better ability to self sooth, self validate, gain a healthier emotional center, stronger sense of identity , and be less pulled into old patterns of behaviors while also challenging old ways of thinking to make room for a healthy and secure way of being with oneself and relating and having relationship with others. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 29, 2019 4:37:36 GMT
Exactly Stu. My FA friend veers into `splitting' mode when he gets triggered, where he paints people very black in his mind, blocks them from his life, and gets extremely avoidant. Years ago when i met him, he could take months before his mindset swung back and he'd be sorry and want to make amends. He damaged a lot of close relationships that way for a long time. His behaviour causes immense distress in others.
Over the last year, he has worked hard on his object constancy in therapy. In triggered mode, he now tries to voice the positives as well as the negatives about a person. He'll usually come to me or his therapist when he's struggling with this. These days when he `flips' there is usually a day or two of `blackness' (extreme inconsolable negativity towards the person he's avoiding), followed by a week to a month of figuring out how to reconcile with the person he's avoiding. None of this even involves romantic relationships yet, he is still struggling with close friendships and colleagues.
Maybe because we're exes and he trusts me now as a friend, he no longer shows that kind of avoidant behaviour in our dealings.
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Post by stu on Oct 29, 2019 4:56:01 GMT
Exactly Stu. My FA friend veers into `splitting' mode when he gets triggered, where he paints people very black in his mind, blocks them from his life, and gets extremely avoidant. Years ago when i met him, he could take months before his mindset swung back and he'd be sorry and want to make amends. He damaged a lot of close relationships that way for a long time. His behaviour causes immense distress in others. Over the last year, he has worked hard on his object constancy in therapy. In triggered mode, he now tries to voice the positives as well as the negatives about a person. He'll usually come to me or his therapist when he's struggling with this. These days when he `flips' there is usually a day or two of `blackness' (extreme inconsolable negativity towards the person he's avoiding), followed by a week to a month of figuring out how to reconcile with the person he's avoiding. None of this even involves romantic relationships yet, he is still struggling with close friendships and colleagues. Maybe because we're exes and he trusts me now as a friend, he no longer shows that kind of avoidant behaviour in our dealings. [b That's interesting I was trying to decipher the differences between de activation and object constancy recently actually. Because I had a bpd ex who had that issue. The difference I noticed is that with the bpd ex when I was painted black she would become enotionally and verbally abusive but it would happen when I spoke with her not for no reason. More like an immediate reflexive reaction. And her mindset about me would also take a 180, until there was something that changed and her mind opened up to me again. But then an even faster shift to being painted black again after. For the Fa ex it seemed more like she would reach the point where she couldn't tolerate anymore intimacy and shut down, then the silent treatment, ghosting etc. Usually things done out of self preservation. Often she would have a more negative view of me too. According to mutual people I heard from after. Saying I was too clingy, needy, wanted to know too much , etc. Stuff she felt in the moment when de activated. But at the same time she still seemed to have residual feelings and not that sense of hatred I would see from the other ex. More a sense of guardedness and shutting down hard if she she sees me. It's always very vicsibke to other people besides me too. And then often people have assumed I was just this asshole that just kept hurting her or something based on how they would see us interacting and acting very close , and then the other periods of time where she was extremely walled up rigid and shut down anytime I came near her during a de activation. They would also see her chasing after me again and pursuing me after that too. At one point she told me she really liked me but was trying to protect herself and was scared, then turned around to other people and said I have no interest at all in him like that and I don't know why he won't let it go. But a couple weeks later we started seriously dating so what's true and what isn't? 🤷🏻♂️. So I wasn't the only one feeking confused lol. The reason I'm upset now is after seriously dating her and actually getting very close and building a legitamte long term bond together and just everything I've done for her and been there for at this point. All of my actions and things I've demonstrated. It just makes me angry beyond belief that she can turn around again and act the same exact way not remembering all the stuff I have been throughout my entire time knowing her, and the lack of respect in her actions towards me after all of that done. With that other guy you mentioned it sounds like perhaps he had resentment that would build up and never got expressed until it reaches that point of completely twisting his view on people. Perhaps my fa ex also had a similar issue of not being able to communicate needs or other things until it gets to the point she just goes off the deep end too. Don't really know and since she can't communicate well, I don't ever really figure out what the deeper trurth is either. Beyond shes just not a healthy person for me to he with and has stuff she needs to work out for herself. |
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Post by serenity on Oct 29, 2019 9:21:10 GMT
I'm sorry you heard all those things second hand Stu  It's sad when someone won't state what they want and criticizes you behind your back instead, making things awkward socially. And its frustrating that you know its all `in the moment' kind of feelings, and you fear some people may not understand it as that. I can see why you hold her to a certain standard, when she has shown so much awareness, ability to connect with you, and remorse previously. It would feel shocking to see all that disappear, and her regress back to survival mode |
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Post by stu on Oct 29, 2019 11:14:37 GMT
I'm sorry you heard all those things second hand Stu It's sad when someone won't state what they want and criticizes you behind your back instead, making things awkward socially. And its frustrating that you know its all `in the moment' kind of feelings, and you fear some people may not understand it as that. I can see why you hold her to a certain standard, when she has shown so much awareness, ability to connect with you, and remorse previously. It would feel shocking to see all that disappear, and her regress back to survival mode Honestly the things she tells other people I don't really care about because I know it isn't the truth. Nor am I concerned or care what anyone else thinks about either of us. It just makes it awkward being in the same social circle and with acquintences when everyone starts acting different because of the changing situation, I just keep removing myself from it more and more for that reason. For me the only thing about her that bugs me and I didn't expect to happen was just being ghosted completely despite reaching out on multiple times expressing myself and thought at this point she would at least give me the courtesy to know she was done if that's what she wanted. Instead I just sat around a couple months knowing she was de activated, but not expecting she was going to start seeing someone else without ever ending things with me in any kind of way , or having a single conversation about anything together prior. I thought she would respect me enough by this point and have enough acknoweldged of my own feelings that she wouldn't have done something like that without us having any sense of things ending or closure at all. Some would say her ghosting and her actions are all you need for closure. But I knew what I was getting into with her. I saw her make a lot of progress and really change for the better and work on all her relationships and start to move past a lot of her fears. Even when it made her unconfortable she kept trying anyways and was doing her best. I saw her stumble and was there to support her and pick her up. I saw her have those moments where panic would wash over and she would have that freeze mode come over her. Or the rigity, guardedness, etc. Being able to help get her more at ease again through being a quiet, calm, encouraging presence , and then the growing attachment and love she felt too. People told me she probably never had feelings for me and just wanted to string me along for attention. Or lost interest at some point. But I know none of those things are true. All I know is this last de activation made her revert harder then I've ever seen her since Ive known her. And I guess it makes sense after how open and vulnerable she became with me, it was a matter of time until her subconscious came back to make her self preservation a priority over all the big risks she kept taking. But I'm not trying to be this girls therapist and seeing all that progress just revert back to that state of complete survival mode like you mentioned is really hard to watch. Especially when you're in an intimate relationship with them and in love. I got too attached myself knowing the possibility that things could not work out. And I had to take some bug risks myself knowing that she had these challenges and wasn't necesserily going to be able to over come them anytime soon. I just didn't expect the final blow out to hurt this badly and didn't expect myself to be as devasted and heart broken as I do now. I'm being strong through it and trying to just walk tall and carry on, but it's just hard to feel like everything I've done to this point had been in vain and only ended in pain for myself. I'm sure she will come through this de activation and things will hit her very, very hard. But I can't go back after all this. I just hope she can continue to make that progress and maybe she can see how badly these de activations can hurt people near her . Anf use that as motivation to really address things and challenge those old survival mechanisms so she doesn't have to repeat those kind of things again in the future. The whole thing relationship just felt like I was always in this fightagainst her self preservation/survival instinct sub conscious mind. And for a while it seemed to really start to change. Until maybe I pushed it or she pushed it too far, to the point those self defensive walls became such a powerful reflexive force to the changes happening that she couldnt pull herself out of it again. At least not right now. And not without going to the point of damaging things being beyond mendable for me, unfortunately. |
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Post by stayhappy on Oct 29, 2019 11:45:44 GMT
I think some of you think just because you're a secure you wont get triggered or hang on longer, etc. People need to get over its so easy to brush off or walk away as a secure. Secure is not black and white. Its never just easy to walk away from everyone. Some are and some are not. Like my FA, he triggered the living crap out of me and should of let go sooner. I felt full AP for a short time. Nobody is 100% secure and Everyone can be triggered by something/someone. Bottom line a secure can openly express needs, communicate them, and understand them. Secures are not triggered by closeness and intimacy. Doesn't mean we dont get anxiety or even trying one last time even though we know we should walk. As we know we can find someone else and get over it. It doesn't make you invincible, make you walk away in an instant, make it less painful, less devastating, make it go away fast, easy brush off, etc. Insecures in general cannot or can be triggered by intimacy, need too much of it, etc until aware. Say AP may not be able to control reaching out when anxiety filled but the secure can be anxiety filled not reach out. We can still stay in control and not let the anxiety text them. Just like some of you here are more secure than you think as youre to a place where you understand yourself now more, can understand your needs and communicate them, etc. You now know what is not good for you, red flags you missed before, better/healthy boundaries, what triggers you, etc, etc. Even if you dont test secure. As far as closure, you need to do that on your own. Your closure is they are not healty enough to be in a relationship and meet your needs, thats all you need to know. Doesnt make them bad people or love them less but you have your closure. They are not right for you. This! I test pretty secure and I feel pretty secure. I would say that I feel 70% secure and that is mine, nothing can change it. And than there is this other 30% and that can change to more secure, anxious or avoidant depending on my interaction with the other person. I would like to share about a little bit more about my interaction with my DA partner but now that I’m working full time is harder to find time to interact on this board as I did before, specially when English isn’t my native language. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 11:59:44 GMT
Speaking of attachment styles, it's come up a few times, about credentials. There are countless instances on the board that play out like this:
Poster1 : "I think he's avoidant. FA? DA?"
Posters 2,3,4: "Def FA."
Poster 1: "Cool, thx, I'm secure."
Posters 2,3,4: "Nah babe, you sound anxious."
Poster 1: "You have no credentials, how rude."
Food for thought. All of it is insecure stuff. Situational or not- If you have had a dysfunctional childhood with an unhealthy attachment figure and you're here having been in a really weird relationship, your issues are worth a look and there is no shame in that, just stop focusing on everyone else, on the partner's insecurity, and have a look within. Works wonders.
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Post by stu on Oct 29, 2019 13:09:11 GMT
Speaking of attachment styles, it's come up a few times, about credentials. There are countless instances on the board that play out like this: Poster1 : "I think he's avoidant. FA? DA?" Posters 2,3,4: "Def FA." Poster 1: "Cool, thx, I'm secure." Posters 2,3,4: "Nah babe, you sound anxious." Poster 1: "You have no credentials, how rude." Food for thought. All of it is insecure stuff. Situational or not- If you have had a dysfunctional childhood with an unhealthy attachment figure and you're here having been in a really weird relationship, your issues are worth a look and there is no shame in that, just stop focusing on everyone else, on the partner's insecurity, and have a look within. Works wonders. I think it also helps to detach from the specific labels and not identify so much with one particular one. For own sense of identity not being so wrapped up into it. We all have childhood wounds and triggers and how we handle them in our own individual ways. There just happens to be a particular pattern of mal adaptive strategies that happen for people based on the type of environment they were involved with and how their body and mind chose to cope as a response. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 13:14:24 GMT
Speaking of attachment styles, it's come up a few times, about credentials. There are countless instances on the board that play out like this: Poster1 : "I think he's avoidant. FA? DA?" Posters 2,3,4: "Def FA." Poster 1: "Cool, thx, I'm secure." Posters 2,3,4: "Nah babe, you sound anxious." Poster 1: "You have no credentials, how rude." Food for thought. All of it is insecure stuff. Situational or not- If you have had a dysfunctional childhood with an unhealthy attachment figure and you're here having been in a really weird relationship, your issues are worth a look and there is no shame in that, just stop focusing on everyone else, on the partner's insecurity, and have a look within. Works wonders. I think it also helps to detach from the specific labels and not identify so much with one particular one. For own sense of identity not being so wrapped up into it. We all have childhood wounds and triggers and how we handle them in our own individual ways. There just happens to be a particular pattern of mal adaptive strategies that happen for people based on the type of environment they were involved with and how their body and mind chose to cope as a response. yep! |
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 29, 2019 13:59:00 GMT
Speaking of attachment styles, it's come up a few times, about credentials. There are countless instances on the board that play out like this: Poster1 : "I think he's avoidant. FA? DA?" Posters 2,3,4: "Def FA." Poster 1: "Cool, thx, I'm secure." Posters 2,3,4: "Nah babe, you sound anxious." Poster 1: "You have no credentials, how rude." Food for thought. All of it is insecure stuff. Situational or not- If you have had a dysfunctional childhood with an unhealthy attachment figure and you're here having been in a really weird relationship, your issues are worth a look and there is no shame in that, just stop focusing on everyone else, on the partner's insecurity, and have a look within. Works wonders. I think it also helps to detach from the specific labels and not identify so much with one particular one. For own sense of identity not being so wrapped up into it. We all have childhood wounds and triggers and how we handle them in our own individual ways. There just happens to be a particular pattern of mal adaptive strategies that happen for people based on the type of environment they were involved with and how their body and mind chose to cope as a response. Interesting.....question for you....can you move forward with that non label approach with the girl you dated or will she always be referred to as FA? The reason I ask is i see a pattern of wanting separate sets of rules...rules that apply to ourselves versus rules that apply to others. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 14:26:36 GMT
I think it also helps to detach from the specific labels and not identify so much with one particular one. For own sense of identity not being so wrapped up into it. We all have childhood wounds and triggers and how we handle them in our own individual ways. There just happens to be a particular pattern of mal adaptive strategies that happen for people based on the type of environment they were involved with and how their body and mind chose to cope as a response. Interesting.....question for you....can you move forward with that non label approach with the girl you dated or will she always be referred to as FA? The reason I ask is i see a pattern of wanting separate sets of rules...rules that apply to ourselves versus rules that apply to others. Exactly! I'm seeing those that spend a lot of time pulling apart the attachment style of a partner or ex seem to have a different set of standards for their own contributions to the dynamic. And, suggesting that there are ways in which they may be selling themselves short with their own unhealthy beliefs or behaviors is even called shaming and victim blaming. There are a lot of people here openly working on their own issues, why would those people then just turn around and persecute people? They aren't persecuting anyone, they are offering feedback and encouragement to work on the same things they themselves are working on. The defensiveness about looking into ones own behaviors as detrimental is in itself an indicator of what dhali mentioned earlier- human nature denies fault in oneself as a defense. People overcome that to varying degrees. I see people here giving all kinds of compassionate explanations for their unhealthy partners behavior; but if their own is pointed out they view it as an attack or inappropriate instead of helpful. I guess that's shame operating, and defensiveness. These situations are emotionally loaded for those experiencing fresh or ongoing loss. That's totally understandable. Nobody sees a situation very objectively with all that pain, it's normal. Lots of insecurity all around. Some are openly working on it and admitting insecurity and some are just not there yet. |
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jules
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Post by jules on Oct 29, 2019 14:32:34 GMT
Lots of insecurity all around. Some are openly working on it and admitting insecurity and some are just not there yet
Well thank god you're back under yet another name to set everyone straight!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 14:42:28 GMT
Lots of insecurity all around. Some are openly working on it and admitting insecurity and some are just not there yet Well thank god you're back under yet another name to set everyone straight! What is this?!? It's like the third time you have said something like this. |
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Post by dhali on Oct 29, 2019 15:34:33 GMT
I’ve said it before, and it seems to not be a phrase people like, but as a self described FA, it applies to me too... scorpion and the frog.
The scorpion needs to admit it’s a scorpion, and work extra diligently to not be one. Without that, it’s just a scorpion, the frog is toast, and everything else is just theater.
Oh, and those compassionate explanations- that, to me, is a huge AP sign. The avoidant isn’t being as generous to you, most likely.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 15:40:10 GMT
I’ve said it before, and it seems to not be a phrase people like, but as a self described FA, it applies to me too... scorpion and the frog. The scorpion needs to admit it’s a scorpion, and work extra diligently to not be one. Without that, it’s just a scorpion, the frog is toast, and everything else is just theater. Oh, and those compassionate explanations- that, to me, is a huge AP sign. The avoidant isn’t being as generous to you, most likely. And my point with that, as far as the compassionate explanations- I think of people were more compassionate to the reality of their own wounded ness and foibles, they wouldn't be so defended about seeing them and joining the people here in self discovery and encouragement to personal growth. I think a community of people facing this stuff is better than pretending to be above it all, because in the real world there is a lot of pain and none of us are above it, we all have to work throughout our lives to grow. |
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It's sad when someone won't state what they want and criticizes you behind your back instead, making things awkward socially. And its frustrating that you know its all `in the moment' kind of feelings, and you fear some people may not understand it as that.
