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Post by youwillgetthere on Nov 2, 2019 19:03:53 GMT
Avoidant/narcissist.
There's no difference. They're both unfixably fucked up. I've come to realise they're the same thing. They'll never be any use in a relationship. Discard them first. They'll be terrible parents and always be delusional, selfish, untrustworthy. For all the talk on this forum, it's not worth wasting your time on someone so un-self-aware that as an adult they've still not learned how to treat other people well or kindly. Ignore their word salad and desperate attempts to come across as good people trying to deal with their issues. Toxic is toxic. They'll never get past the mental age of a child. Stop hoping and leave them to rot.
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Post by serenity on Nov 3, 2019 6:32:05 GMT
There really are a lot of similarities. I have not yet been involved with someone with DA attachment style in my offline life who wasn't a Narcissist. I have come across alternative mental health issues that could cause DA attachment though, such as Schizoid personality and autism. My grandfather was a war veteren with PTSD, and the way his wife and kids describe him, he sounded DA too. I've also seen anti-depressant medications cause enough detachment to bring it on.
With all these attachment styles, to me the most relevant information is the mental health issues behind the attachment style. I would not give a narcissist the time of day. I would avoid someone with BPD or schizophrenia like the plague, because of previous dealings. I have a schizoid friend who is an ex who is very dear to me, and I have made good friends with people on the spectrum of autism in the workplace.
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Post by faithopelove on Nov 3, 2019 13:07:37 GMT
From what I’ve read about narcissists, the DA that’s been in my life 2.5 was not one. He can check out and suppress feelings, so when he does that it seems like he cares only about himself- and at that time he IS only thinking about himself, but it’s in an attempt to protect himself. Not hurt others. No gas lighting or attention seeking behavior. No manipulative or controlling behavior that a narcissist displays. He’s wounded, fearful of getting close and trying to avoid further pain. That can easily be misinterpreted.
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kelly
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Post by kelly on Nov 3, 2019 13:18:43 GMT
There’s a difference between the two with intent. The outcome may be the same. The pain may be the same. The crazy making may be similar. But the intent of a DA and a narcissist is different. However, it may not matter in the grand scheme if the results at the end are the same, sadly.
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Post by alexandra on Nov 3, 2019 18:20:54 GMT
This post is basically trolling, but these things are not the same unless you have the most extreme avoidant on the end of the 0-7 scale. Most DAs are not sociopaths who lack empathy, even if they stay distant and are poor communicators.
I will give a personal anecdote. One of my oldest friends and favorite people is a recovering DA who has always had empathy. However, that now recovering DA was in a marriage with someone who was insecure and angry at the DA's lack of warmth (which was really lack of mind-reading) and never communicated it until a blind-siding blow up years later. When my DA friend tried to work it out in earnest, yes, going to therapy, counseling, whatever it took, it was not good enough. The other insecure partner complained it should all just come naturally and instead of working through it admitted to cheating and left instead. My friend was devastated... and continued the work by themselves to keep earning secure! Now that friend is very happy in a secure long-term relationship with someone more mature.
Sometimes it truly is one person being a sociopath and lacking empathy with no capacity to grow, or an avoidant who will be stuckin their pain longer than you desire, perhaps forever. And sometimes (in an average of 25% of cases according to earned secure statistics), that's not the case at all, and when given the opportunity to learn about what's wrong, the person will be self-motivated to change and follow through. Making a blanket generalization conflating the two conditions shows anger at something specific that's happened in the past and doesn't really reflect a deep understanding of attachment theory.
Instead of saying all avoidants are garbage, including the ones who haven't set out to hurt you, how about... I have no interest in having avoidants in my life because it doesn't make me feel good or work for me, and that's that? There's more healthy power in deciding what you want and need and owning it than in victimizing.
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Post by averyleigh on Nov 13, 2019 15:55:27 GMT
I love all of these posts. This is eye opening to read all of your accounts. I think it is so important to explain our experiences & pain because it sheds light on the many facets of the avoidant attachment but it also shows the different stages of grief/acceptance we are experiencing. It also feels good to know I am not alone in this struggle and there isn't judgement in expression. Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 17:04:29 GMT
All insecure people are annoying and destructive, including the ones who would troll with ignorant posts like the OP.
Once I got food poisoning from ham. My friend and I were laughing about how that is what it's like being involved with a toxic person. Just don't eat the ham. She sent me a funny gif of a man getting blinded by a piece of ham tossed at his face. Now, we refer to relationship delusions as "Wearing the Ham Goggles".
Just another post on the internet.
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Post by alexandra on Nov 13, 2019 18:22:50 GMT
Now, we refer to relationship delusions as "Wearing the Ham Goggles". Omg LMAO! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 19:35:57 GMT
Now, we refer to relationship delusions as "Wearing the Ham Goggles". Omg LMAO! "You know how it is, she's got the Ham Goggles on..." "For a while there I had the Ham Perspective, took a minute realize what was going on." "Girl. Take off those Ham Goggles, you cRaZy!!" It says it all, really. 😂 |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 22:39:30 GMT
My most damaging relationship was with a narcissist who was AP. Love bombing is common well known behavior or narcissists. This is not DA behavior. All narcissists are insecurely attached. Not all insecurely attaches people are narcissists. To clarify, I’m not saying all narcissists are AP. Right? AP narcs are like toddlers with loaded handguns. Anyway, the original troll overlooks the facts in favor of subjective experience. The tone of the post reveals more about their psychology than anyone else's. Ah, forums. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 2:56:00 GMT
Right? AP narcs are like toddlers with loaded handguns. Anyway, the original troll overlooks the facts in favor of subjective experience. The tone of the post reveals more about their psychology than anyone else's. Ah, forums. Well, yes, everyone knows that. Gotta find someone to yell at since you can't yell at the person who the anger should actually be directed to. Still good to discuss because I think there are a lot of misconceptions surrounding this. Did you know besides overt/covert narcs, there are other subsets (i.e. somatic, cerebral, etc.)?? Yep, right on that, gotta go smear 25-30 percent of the population when your ex sucks. Lol! And yes, so many flavors of narcissism. The best defense is self awareness and self worth, boundaries; etc. The impacts of narcissistic behavior can be very disorienting and painful but I do believe there is a way to detect and avoid it when you have pretty good emotional health and awareness. That comes through processes and focusing on self healing and growth rather than targeting other populations. |
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Post by 8675309 on Nov 14, 2019 4:11:11 GMT
Two different realms. I dated a true narc many a years ago and an avoidant once. Not even in the same realm even though they may have some similar behaviors. The narc ran me over and the avoidant just threw me for a loop for a short time. Narc I need time to Really heal. I needed some heal time from avoidant too but nothing like my narc.
My narc was 20+ years ago and never dated one since. Avoidant came into my life to learn attachment and make me self reflect even more. Now armed as the dating pool 35+ has more avoidants. I needed to learn the lesson/attachment. People come into our life for a reason, a season or a lifetime.
I was pretty self aware but its like I wasnt after learning about attachment.
there is also narcissistic behaviors and a full on narc. All of us can have Some narcissistic behaviors but not be a true narcissist.
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Post by dhali on Nov 14, 2019 5:42:40 GMT
My most damaging relationship was with a narcissist who was AP. Love bombing is common well known behavior of narcissists. This is not DA behavior. All narcissists are insecurely attached. Not all insecurely attached people are narcissists. To clarify, I’m not saying all narcissists are AP. I don’t know. Maybe my ex was FA, but that’s tough to come to grips with. For sure she love bombed me, but on the other hand, she has zero pining for ex’s. She never wanted back with any of them. In fact, she didn’t really care much for them. Everything was always their fault too. And she dismissed of me so callously (which I’m finally ok with-on my self esteem, not in seeing it as acceptable). And she never once looked over her shoulder at me. There are no cycles. Just ice. I saw her once. She approached me to ask how I was as if nothing happened. I just said good. This is the sign of a person with zero remorse. Not a care in the world when it comes to me. But maybe she is FA. Just more on the dismissive side. Who knows. |
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Post by youwillgetthere on Nov 14, 2019 20:09:22 GMT
This post is basically trolling, but these things are not the same unless you have the most extreme avoidant on the end of the 0-7 scale. Most DAs are not sociopaths who lack empathy, even if they stay distant and are poor communicators. I will give a personal anecdote. One of my oldest friends and favorite people is a recovering DA who has always had empathy. However, that now recovering DA was in a marriage with someone who was insecure and angry at the DA's lack of warmth (which was really lack of mind-reading) and never communicated it until a blind-siding blow up years later. When my DA friend tried to work it out in earnest, yes, going to therapy, counseling, whatever it took, it was not good enough. The other insecure partner complained it should all just come naturally and instead of working through it admitted to cheating and left instead. My friend was devastated... and continued the work by themselves to keep earning secure! Now that friend is very happy in a secure long-term relationship with someone more mature. Sometimes it truly is one person being a sociopath and lacking empathy with no capacity to grow, or an avoidant who will be stuckin their pain longer than you desire, perhaps forever. And sometimes (in an average of 25% of cases according to earned secure statistics), that's not the case at all, and when given the opportunity to learn about what's wrong, the person will be self-motivated to change and follow through. Making a blanket generalization conflating the two conditions shows anger at something specific that's happened in the past and doesn't really reflect a deep understanding of attachment theory. Instead of saying all avoidants are garbage, including the ones who haven't set out to hurt you, how about... I have no interest in having avoidants in my life because it doesn't make me feel good or work for me, and that's that? There's more healthy power in deciding what you want and need and owning it than in victimizing. |
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Post by youwillgetthere on Nov 14, 2019 20:51:16 GMT
Actually, no. I know what trolls are, and I'm very much the opposite. I'm a teacher, a mathematician, a philosopher, and now thanks to my experience, a psychologist. I will always encourage children (and adults), question them, but ultimately support them for their progress and make them feel good about their talents and their achievements.
I will respond to your comments as specifically and accurately as I can. You mention a DA (umbrella term) that lacked warmth. If you're past 20, or certainly 30, and 'lack warmth' because you treat people badly when they come to you for support or advice - that's not a lack of 'mind-reading', that's just being unaware, impatient, unempathetic, or as I like to call it, 'a dick'.
Yes, DAs (and narcs) go to therapy, but only because they have to. It's a means to an end. It continues the drama and might mean they don't lose 'supply'. But they will never truly change. Why was it 'not good enough?' Surely therapy and counselling should help to resolve the situation. If it doesn't, something is fundamentally wrong, and that's someone refusing to fix the situation (or themselves) despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. That, my friend, is narcissism. Yes, it SHOULD all come naturally, because if you're a healthy, functioning adult, with a somewhere-near decent childhood, it SHOULD come naturally. You SHOULD want to look after people you care about when they're sick, and sometimes want to to put others' needs ahead of your own when it matters, unless you're a narc.
You accuse your friend's ex of being immature, but it wasn't until your friend become 'earned secure' (learning the tricks?) that they became happy in a relationship. So, your friend had to go to therapy and become 'earned secure' before they could have a happy relationship? A mature adult doesn't have to have someone else work this out for them. The fact that they had to go to someone and work this out about themselves shows that they were not ready for a healthy relationship when they were with your friend, and that they may well have been themself the catalyst and the problem. So your trolling and apologetic behaviour on their behalf may well be doing nothing more than enabling their abuse and victimising the person who actually WAS the victim. Great work.
I admit that I have anger (and bitterness, hilarious though it is in hindsight) about what happened in the past, but that doesn't shade what I've learnt and what I've studied and learnt from others as an independent, scientific mind. If someone is an adult, or of roughly an age where they should be, and they haven't yet worked out that kindness and empathy is the best way to deal with humanity and emotions, and life in general, then they are not worth the time of day. If you need a therapist to teach you to be a kind, empathetic, patient and caring individual, then why the f**k would you waste time on a disgusting individual like that?
Just because avoidants 'don't set out' to hurt you, doesn't mean they don't. "Sorry, I didn't mean to shoot you" doesn't stop the bleeding.
"I never meant to hurt you" doesn't mean you didn't, and it's not an excuse for the appalling way they behave. I've studied attachment theory (you accuse me of a lack of understanding in attachment theory) in detail, for many years, and it all makes sense, but our lives are too short to waste on people who haven't worked it out yet. In the same way, the people that haven't worked out that ducking witches or believing in astrology is a good 400 years old are best confined to the annals of history. The Spanish Inquisition is passed. Civilisation is moving too fast to analyse and apologise for these types of people.
And lastly, you accuse me of 'victimising'. One of the last contacts with my narc when I opened up about going through depression because of the relationship was they accused me of 'victimising' myself. That's appalling language. Rape a child, then accuse them of 'victimising' themselves because they don't like what you're doing. That, my friend, is abuse.
You are enabler, a distorted thinker, and an insidious example of humanity that makes excuses for bad behaviour. Rebut to this post if you want, but there are people out there who are struggling to heal from abusive relationships, and posts like yours are doing nothing to help them.
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