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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 5:38:43 GMT
I don't think Thais talks too much I think she is really appealing, actually. I just can't keep up and I see the limitation in me, not in her. I think she's really gifted at what she does and it's doing the world a good service.
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Post by faithopelove on Dec 1, 2019 5:42:00 GMT
I don't feel unlovable. I have asked someone that before, because I didn't trust that it was love. I tend more to anticipate not being understood or cared for in a genuine way. I saw setting about that, in the DA threads. Something like feeling useful instead of empathized with. At least that's the narrative? I believe that my tendency to doubt love comes from 1) a prevailing fear of longing or hope 2) not being loved much as a kid. I think I'm lovable. I've met a lot of unloving people. First and foremost, my parents of course. I think most people are lovable for being who they are, unless they are just totally cruel. Everyone has quirks and difficulties. But we all add something cool to the mix. Also, I am not sure everyone has the same ideas about love, and what it is or isn't. So I can see a question like "Why do you love me?" being along the lines of what Thais just mentioned in the 40 Traits vid- needing to quantify or qualify and find out- what does that mean? Is it a need? Is it altruistic? Do you see me as I see me? What is love to you? Lol- more of that DA analysis, at least in my way of seeing things. @inmourning - Yes, he definitely uses that analytical/logical side of his brain!  Maybe it would’ve been more beneficial to answer his question w a question! I definitely don’t think I see him as he sees himself. I tend to hold him up higher than he ever would. I have so much respect for him. Not being cared for, understood or loved- he doubts all of these things it seems. He’s a very doubtful person in all areas- as he has said- he doesn’t have the gift of faith. His insecure attachment at least partially comes from his wife cheating on him and then leaving him to marry the other man. He can’t remember his childhood, although I’m sure the stage was set and the ex drove the nail through the coffin, so to speak. That seems to be his biggest hurdle: believing. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 5:44:23 GMT
faithopelove , has he actually said he feels unlovable? I know that my fellow DA's and I can list our shortcomings without feeling unlovable about them. It may be how he feels, I have no idea- or it may be projection? I think there is a wide variance in individuals within a style, too. I do not understand the unlovable thing, as an adult. I may have gone through that in teen angst and stuff but mostly, I feel pretty acceptable but I do think we all love in different (but meaningful also) ways.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 5:49:59 GMT
faithopelove without meaning it in a harmful way, he could just not have full faith in your ability to love or see him, which would be an avoidant learned mindset , not necessarily personal. It may not be that he feels unlovable but he doubts another's capacity to love. He may or may not have taken the cheating personally. He may have seen it as her flaw, not his, her weakness, not his inadequacy. Overall- not that it wouldn't sting but if someone cheated on me I would see them as a cheater, not me as cheat-worthy. And it's happened. I felt disgust and contempt at the lies and infidelity. It hurt, it's a betrayal. But I didn't tie it back to me. That has to do with the way that avoidants experience rejection differently perhaps, there is a thread about that in the general forum. IDK, Im just rambling because it's late, I need to sleep 
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Post by faithopelove on Dec 1, 2019 5:51:18 GMT
faithopelove , has he actually said he feels unlovable? I know that my fellow DA's and I can list our shortcomings without feeling unlovable about them. It may be how he feels, I have no idea- or it may be projection? I think there is a wide variance in individuals within a style, too. I do not understand the unlovable thing, as an adult. I may have gone through that in teen angst and stuff but mostly, I feel pretty acceptable but I do think we all love in different (but meaningful also) ways. @inmourning - He’s never said those exact words about not being lovable but he said before he feels like he’s only good for sex. He has said that he feels incapable of relationships, that there’s something innately wrong with him. Whereas, he knows he can accomplish the physical end. If my spouse cheated on me and left me, maybe I’d feel unlovable, too? She hurt him deeply. As an AP, I can totally relate to feeling unworthy and unlovable, like I’m an inconvenience and a burden, too much for anyone to take, the way I always felt in my childhood. This is an AP core wound. |
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Post by faithopelove on Dec 1, 2019 5:53:06 GMT
faithopelove , has he actually said he feels unlovable? I know that my fellow DA's and I can list our shortcomings without feeling unlovable about them. It may be how he feels, I have no idea- or it may be projection? I think there is a wide variance in individuals within a style, too. I do not understand the unlovable thing, as an adult. I may have gone through that in teen angst and stuff but mostly, I feel pretty acceptable but I do think we all love in different (but meaningful also) ways. @inmourning - I’m really glad you don’t feel unloveable- that’s one bullet you dodged!! It brings a lot of uncertainty and insecurity w that limited belief!! |
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Post by faithopelove on Dec 1, 2019 5:54:44 GMT
faithopelove without meaning it in a harmful way, he could just not have full faith in your ability to love or see him, which would be an avoidant learned mindset , not necessarily personal. It may not be that he feels unlovable but he doubts another's capacity to love. He may or may not have taken the cheating personally. He may have seen it as her flaw, not his, her weakness, not his inadequacy. Overall- not that it wouldn't sting but if someone cheated on me I would see them as a cheater, not me as cheat-worthy. And it's happened. I felt disgust and contempt at the lies and infidelity. It hurt, it's a betrayal. But I didn't tie it back to me. That has to do with the way that avoidants experience rejection differently perhaps, there is a thread about that in the general forum. IDK, Im just rambling because it's late, I need to sleep @inmourning - Good night!! It’s late here, too... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2019 5:58:06 GMT
I'm still not sure that a DA saying something is innately wrong with them translates to feeling unlovable, per se- not because of arrogance but because the importance of close relationships is minimized and repressed. So being not good at them doesn't necessarily equate to being unworthy, just incapable. It can even be a deactivating strategy to hold that belief and avoid deep relationships as a preventive measure. That's a key strategy for DA. Don't let it happen.
I get that as an aware DA- an an unaware DA, if I had gone this long and gotten to this age, I'd probably have determined I just can't do it and settle for sex and casual. That's actually how my current thing started and I've battled with the idea of being able to really achieve a "normal" relationship. But I'm in good SE therapy now so I'm in flux, and getting more secure. I'll always be avoidantly adapted at my deepest core though, habituated to a certain way. But I am integrating, and knocking down barriers that existed previously.
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Post by youwillgetthere on Dec 3, 2019 18:03:13 GMT
Right, so let's dig further into this grave I've made for myself.
I'm writing this, but not necessarily for the people who've replied, but for those reading it who don't comment, and who email me personally to say thank you for 'calling it as it is.' And for those who are desperately seeking answers, or hope, as I was just a few short years ago.
I want to point out that the people who've rebutted against me on this post have not countered the points I've made, but instead have labelled 'I'm sorry you have so much anger' at me, and 'I'm not going to engage with you further.' This is similar to the techniques my narc ex threw at me. 'I hope you find your way back to reality' - and this from a girl who believed in mermaids, tarot, Disney and magic. (No, seriously - no exaggeration!)
This is classic avoidant/narcissistic response. Rather than engage in the points I've raised, or have the debate, (which I thoroughly welcome), they've projected that clearly I'm the one with the problem, dismissed my arguments and either withdrawn or diverged into a tangent on the topic of Thais Gibson.
I also want to give hope to anyone reading this because I had some unbelievably good news today. So, having blocked my narc ex on every medium, and her new supply (some people call it boyfriend - the term varies when they're a narc) because of a wonderfully happy, drunken night and some recent wonderful experiences with good people, I decided to unblock them on Bookface and see if they're still going out. They're not. Her relationship status is hidden, and his is 'single'. I have have every empathy in the world for what he must have gone through - he gave up his life for her, as did I, but if you'd read the email he sent me, you'd understand my sense of glee and lack of sympathy. And it confirms everything I've learnt about narcs, and the new supply, and how you can't warn them, and how they manipulate the new source, and how they'll go through the same cycle you did, and that you just have to wait and give it time. Literally, I've just been dancing on my bed with joy. Please don't judge me or think me callous, but I hope that all people who have been in psychologically abusive relationships will appreciate the karma, and the fulfilment of the cycle, and share in my joy in knowing that you did everything you could, and that you learnt from others who've been through the same thing, and grew, and healed, and science, or learning, or patterns, or standing on the shoulders of giants, or whatever you want to call it, and are still struggling with closure, or fairness, or justice, or retribution, or just the come-uppance of people who treat others like shit, or like objects, WILL come. And you will heal and recover your lives, and find joy in science, or music, or maths, or art, or culture, or sociology, or philosophy, or psychology, or films, or food, or whatever it was you cared about before the narc came into your life and devalued everything and stole your world and your personality, and you will be happy again, creative, inspiring, prosperous, and ultimately a good person. And you will live a happy life on the other side, and they will continue to be sucked down the vortex.
So much love to all. You Will Get There.
Two steps forward, one step back, but soon this will all be in the past. Believe me. xXxXx
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Post by faithopelove on Dec 3, 2019 20:58:21 GMT
Right, so let's dig further into this grave I've made for myself. I'm writing this, but not necessarily for the people who've replied, but for those reading it who don't comment, and who email me personally to say thank you for 'calling it as it is.' And for those who are desperately seeking answers, or hope, as I was just a few short years ago. I want to point out that the people who've rebutted against me on this post have not countered the points I've made, but instead have labelled 'I'm sorry you have so much anger' at me, and 'I'm not going to engage with you further.' This is similar to the techniques my narc ex threw at me. 'I hope you find your way back to reality' - and this from a girl who believed in mermaids, tarot, Disney and magic. (No, seriously - no exaggeration!) This is classic avoidant/narcissistic response. Rather than engage in the points I've raised, or have the debate, (which I thoroughly welcome), they've projected that clearly I'm the one with the problem, dismissed my arguments and either withdrawn or diverged into a tangent on the topic of Thais Gibson. I also want to give hope to anyone reading this because I had some unbelievably good news today. So, having blocked my narc ex on every medium, and her new supply (some people call it boyfriend - the term varies when they're a narc) because of a wonderfully happy, drunken night and some recent wonderful experiences with good people, I decided to unblock them on Bookface and see if they're still going out. They're not. Her relationship status is hidden, and his is 'single'. I have have every empathy in the world for what he must have gone through - he gave up his life for her, as did I, but if you'd read the email he sent me, you'd understand my sense of glee and lack of sympathy. And it confirms everything I've learnt about narcs, and the new supply, and how you can't warn them, and how they manipulate the new source, and how they'll go through the same cycle you did, and that you just have to wait and give it time. Literally, I've just been dancing on my bed with joy. Please don't judge me or think me callous, but I hope that all people who have been in psychologically abusive relationships will appreciate the karma, and the fulfilment of the cycle, and share in my joy in knowing that you did everything you could, and that you learnt from others who've been through the same thing, and grew, and healed, and science, or learning, or patterns, or standing on the shoulders of giants, or whatever you want to call it, and are still struggling with closure, or fairness, or justice, or retribution, or just the come-uppance of people who treat others like shit, or like objects, WILL come. And you will heal and recover your lives, and find joy in science, or music, or maths, or art, or culture, or sociology, or philosophy, or psychology, or films, or food, or whatever it was you cared about before the narc came into your life and devalued everything and stole your world and your personality, and you will be happy again, creative, inspiring, prosperous, and ultimately a good person. And you will live a happy life on the other side, and they will continue to be sucked down the vortex. So much love to all. You Will Get There. Two steps forward, one step back, but soon this will all be in the past. Believe me. xXxXx - I already stated my opinion pages ago about your post- the fact I’m discussing Thais Gibson’s helpful videos with another poster on the forum has nothing to do with nor do you have reason to take it personally. You are looking for a reason to debate and argue and I won’t give you one since I already stated my opinion and went on to discuss more productive topics with a DA - and although we’re on this strand had nothing to do with you so I reasonably thought you could simply disregard. Not everything is about you and not every comment on a page is meant to avoid or antagonize you. It seems by the way you keep reengaging with no one in particular that you want attention. I’ll be careful not to reinforce your need for that after this post, but you should probably let it go bc it seems everyone else has a while ago. Let it go. Let it go. |
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Post by omega14 on Dec 6, 2019 1:38:09 GMT
In my experience they are not the same at all. One is a personality disorder and one is an attachment issue. A narcissist (the NPD type) has a complete lack of awareness and thus can’t be counselled nor remedied as far as statistics go. Insecure attachment can be addressed and is intensified/muted based on who they are relating to. A narc is always a narc and require a co dependant to thrive. Sure there is a spectrum of all things but narcs are destructive whereas avoidants are dysfunctional.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 2:36:23 GMT
In my experience they are not the same at all. One is a personality disorder and one is an attachment issue. A narcissist (the NPD type) has a complete lack of awareness and thus can’t be counselled nor remedied as far as statistics go. Insecure attachment can be addressed and is intensified/muted based on who they are relating to. A narc is always a narc and require a co dependant to thrive. Sure there is a spectrum of all things but narcs are destructive whereas avoidants are dysfunctional. Well said! Many good points here. |
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Post by youwillgetthere on Dec 10, 2019 20:00:50 GMT
This may be my last post, or it may not. We'll see how it goes. Somehow I've ended up in a cyber-argument with faithhopelove which I didn't intend.
There are people on this forum going through hell. Literally feeling they are dying with every day due to a psychologically abusive relationship. I joined this forum a few years ago because I was trying to understand what the hell was happening - I'd been happy and successful and loved so many people, and was loved, for 30 odd years, and then a relationship with a narc/avoidant tore everything that was special to me apart and destroyed my life in a few short months and it took years to recover.
I joined this forum trying to understand avoidants, trying to understand what they needed, why they acted the way they did, why they seemed to struggle so much with empathy and kindness and understanding. And all this forum and its many threads showed me is that avoidants would rather slag the other person off, and devalue them, than take a few sentences to try and understand what the other person is going through, and try to help.
I haven't seen one word of support, or empathy, or kindness in your posts. Merely dismissal and devaluation. And that's the problem. There are people in the world who will see someone hurting, or in need, and try to help. And they are truly good, humanitarian people. And they are to be treasured, supported and thanked.
You say 'I stated my opinion and went on to discuss MORE PRODUCTIVE topics with a DA.' You realise you could have helped? You could have met halfway? If someone is in pain they need someone to talk with, to empathise with them, to share their vulnerabilities. This is why victims of abuse go to group therapy. Because it shows them THEY ARE NOT ALONE. That other people have been through similar things, and that they are at different stages of healing from it, and want to help others get to where they are now, by sharing and contributing, and giving hope.
What can be MORE PRODUCTIVE than showing other people that they are not alone and that there are people here to help them if they can?!
Look at the language you've used to another human being in your post. I say again, it's dismissive, devaluing, and really, really shitty. This thread wasn't meant to be an argument. It was to say that avoidants won't or can't be there when another human being needs them, because of their psychological issues, and their neglectful childhoods, and I think (and I'm not being glib in saying this), you've proved my point. Which is why I say stop hoping for avoidants to care about anyone except themselves. Because whether they can't, or won't, or struggle to, or blah blah blah, they are terrible for being there through the hard times unless it affects them directly. To everyone who's reading this, your life is worth more than that, and these people are useless at supporting you through the journey that is life. It's one way. So stop trying to support/help them.
FYI I don't want attention - quite the opposite. Although I appreciate my views are controversial when they shouldn't be. Galileo was controversial before he was put to death, but he was right. I was trying to give hope to others who are abuse survivors like myself. Narcissitic abuse. Avoidant abuse. The fact that you describe my efforts as a plea for attention says more about you and how you view the world and how you view other people than it does about me.
You have said ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to prove that avoidants are any good in a relationship, or that they are healthy for the other person, or that they will ever put their needs second to another. Until you can show PROOF that that is the case, I'm sorry, but you're like a creationist humping the American Dream, or a religious apologist burying their heads in the sand. I ask again, why should someone devote their life to someone so emotionally immature that they can't respond to a person in need with a kind word, or a loving gesture? Feel free to say 'let it go. Let it go' again as an argument. It's a good lyric from a catchy song. But it doesn't help people. If people could just 'let it go', they wouldn't be on this forum!
In an addendum, omega14, I thought you put across your point very well, and you've given me a lot to think about. Thank you for putting your point across rationally and coherently. You might just be the bridge in this meeting of opposing psychologies.
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cukie
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Post by cukie on Dec 10, 2019 22:35:18 GMT
There's nothing avoidant or rude about acknowledging that going back and forth with you will result in nothing productive; especially given your highly argumentative tone.
You're not being productive or kind, you are spouting blanket ill-informed platitudes that expressly demonize a group of people in an unfair way. If you had a shred of self awareness you'd realize that the only thing you are doing here is ranting. I'm on the total other end of the spectrum (AP) and even I can see that your language is objectively unhelpful and counterproductive.
Anyways.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that avoidants are "good" at relationships. I think that by definition avoidants (like an APs or FAs) are bad at conventional relationships. That doesn't mean they can't be in a healthy sustainable one, it just takes a lot of work by both parties and a mutual acknowledgement of the DA's (and AP's/Secure's) needs.
My DA ex was totally capable of empathy. Especially during the beginning of the relationship she'd express how she felt bad about how she was a bad partner. The problem is that over the years the inability to meet each other's needs turns to resentment and people are cold when they are resentful. That's not a DA exclusive trait; DA's are just better equipped to shut their emotions off when things become too painful for them.
I think a ton of DA relationship issues (especially one's that result in posts like these) come from a relationship where neither the DA nor their partner was able to identify the needs of the DA. And so what happens is the DA fails to adequately spell out the importance of their need for space and their partner fails to honor it. So their partner continues on trying to make it work like a "normal" relationship, the DA feels shamed, frustrated, and unhappy because they cant be what their partner wants and their own needs (which are fundamentally different) aren't being met. Both sides become resentful because they can't meet in the middle, because neither person knows what that middle is or that there's even a need to get there. Then the DA quietly distances themselves, shuts down, and turns off their feelings (and probably ends it over a text message).
And yeah, I agree that its ridiculously hurtful when that happens and definitely has the capacity to emotionally destroy people. It emotionally destroyed me 4 months ago. But its equally detrimental to sacrifice all you are to try to make a dysfunctional relationship work, and she (and DA's in general) just happened to recognize that before I did.
The DA's that aren't narcissists emotionally destroy people out of ignorance. Because the fact is that most people don't know what attachment theory is and they don't know whats wrong so they chalk it up to bad relationships. Likewise their partner ignores all of the early warning signs and write them off to "oh they are just shy" and persistently fail to recognize the fact that their needs are different. Neither side actually sets boundaries, and then they proceed to fall into the anxious avoidant trap - where both sides end up miserable.
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Post by mrob on Dec 11, 2019 0:25:44 GMT
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
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Maybe it would’ve been more beneficial to answer his question w a question! I definitely don’t think I see him as he sees himself. I tend to hold him up higher than he ever would. I have so much respect for him. 
