Avoidant/narcissist

youwillgetthere, I'm sorry you're hurting so badly.

I don't expect you to relate to my friend, whom you don't know. That person is very capable of having happy relationships (we've had one for 25 years), and the lack of warmth is of the same level as an introverted person. Not everyone has the same love language. Unfortunately, after many years of us all knowing the spouse, it was very clear the spouse was half the problem if not more, and was very immature and absolutely expected mindreading and being parented and catered to. No communication on the spouse's part at all. I'm really objective and don't defend my friends if they don't deserve it, I call them out on their $hit when things are their fault. This was not a case like that, and the therapy was in earnest and the DA's idea, as was every other effort made to save that marriage.

I've dated DAs and narcs, and I can't stand dating them. So now that I know what I'm looking for as signs, I no longer do. That took a lot of work and a lot of pain. I had a close relative with NPD normalize it for me growing up, so I had to take responsibility for myself and earn my own security to break the toxic cycles. If you, you specifically not general you, are aware of both attachment and personality disorders, that's all you need to do. You can't change others, and even if they suck the only person you're hurting by endlessly holding on to the anger instead of feeling it until it passes is yourself. You won't ever heal and your body will suffer under the stress.

You can communicate to people who are stuck that the avoidant or sociopathic object of their affection isn't worth their tears and effort when that other person is not putting in the same. And you'd probably be right, statistically. But besides validating that anger is a normal response and should be felt after dealing with a painful relationship with someone you wanted to trust, encouraging indefinite anger (and fear of future encounters with people like that) doesn't allow the person to then turn back to taking responsibility to work on themselves and move on.

I define trolling as going into a place of support and saying something inflammatory with no desire to hear any other opinions. Which seemed like your intent from your post. You're on the defensive with me so I know I'm wasting my own effort to continue the discourse, so I won't further after this post. But I'll say this: the vast majority of my avoidant exes haven't progressed, and I wouldn't know about the personality disordered exes since I got the eff away from them and have them as blocked as possible. My thinking isn't distorted just because I also know of some avoidant, and anxious, insecurely attached folks who overcame their issues.

Are you a narcissist?

Alright, let's put this is to bed now.

I'll do my best to address the salient points.

Apologies to anyone I offend. But telling the majority of 15th century that the earth went round the sun 'offended' them, and over time real life, rationality and scientific method tends to overcome. Except in some circles, but you kind of have to just ignore them and work for the betterment of civilisation and those who are actually helping us progress.

Avoidants had hard childhoods. Abusive, neglectful, lacking stability, nurture and logical, rational reasoning. The basic awareness of 'how would I like to be treated as a helpless, vulnerable human being?' and the inability for that caregiver to actually give care which resulted in them mimicking and re-enacting those patterns in later life, romantic relationships and parental models.

My mother was anxious, my father avoidant. I somehow ended up in the middle as secure, but with a tendency towards the anxious side. But through it all, I ultimately respect and listen to rational debate. I love being proved that I'm wrong, and always seek for proof and validation of what I believe, and if it turns out to be wrong, I adapt. I say I'm a mathematician because I studied mathematics at one of the top universities for maths in the UK. That's not arrogance, that's just a fact. There's no elitism in that - we got drunk lots and did lots of theatre! So when, happyidiot, I claim to be a mathematician, and you you ask if I'm a narcissist, the answer is no. I've taught in many places over the years, in schools as a vocal coach, MD and as a private music tutor, and I am supportive, encouraging and empathetic, and justly call myself a 'teacher', which I also do in daily life. I share my experiences with others, and learn from theirs. I help people where I can, and learn from them when I can. I never presume I'm right, but also go with the philosophy of proof and learning, standing on the shoulders of giants who learnt far more than I will ever forget and do what I can to make my existence worthwhile whilst doing myself to help others when I can. I studied philosophy as an option at uni, and continue to do so to this day. And because I unwittingly ended up in a psychologically abusive relationship, I started studying psychology. I am not trained, and I have no official qualifications in it, I freely admit that, but I've spent years now applying what I've learnt from others, observing and testing, asking questions and trying to see repetitive patterns and helping where I can to aid people who went through, or cause, similar things to what I went through. Call that projection if you like, but I know what happened to me and the effect it had on me a few years ago - I was suicidal, how I dealt with it and managed to heal through the help of others, and now where I am today in the hope that I can give the benefit of my experience in the hope that it might help others come out the other side and be able to recover.

That long exposition done, I now have to cope with the enabling and rationalisation that's been laid down here and undo the damage that glib comments and the style of YouTube commenting that can do so much damage in just a few short sentences. Which is surprisingly similar and evocative of what narcissists do.

PS happyidiot, I am neither a butcher, a baker or a candlestick maker. I've never quartered livestock, made a cake from scratch, or moulded wax to form a light-emitting device. And never claimed to be. If you want to accuse people of trolling, take a moment to look at yourself. I am everything I claimed to be. And nothing that I didn't. Comments like that don't help anyone, and certainly don't help those who are in pain and trying to recover from abusive relationships. Try to be constructive next time, and offer advice and experience rather than putting others down to make yourself feel superior.

Now on to the actual, important stuff, which might help people trying to heal.

Avoidant and narcissists are not the same. I get that. My oldest friend is an FA. We dated on and off for many years and we are there for eachother through the hard times. And she was my conduit through the narc. Whenever the narc made no sense (I'll summarise by saying gaslighting, projection, coercion, manipulation, blame-shifting, entitlement, lack of empathy etc), although she had my back, she always inherently understood the narc's point of view, and felt the same way. Though most of my friends took my side and couldn't understand why she was being so horrible, in such an insidious and disgusting way, she was the only one who seemed to understand, and she became my go to. Now I'm out of the relationship, I now help her with hers, and many others, but I certainly wouldn't want to be in a primary relationship with her ever again, as despite everything, she mimics, and always will, her NPD father's traits. She was the scapegoat second child, so she's not NPD, but she'll never recover despite all the therapy and work, and I can see that and no longer expect her to, and I can see that from the outside, but that doesn't stop us being friends and dearly close to one another. But the seeds sowed in childhood take root, and that's the point of my original post.

I now have to undo the damage alexandra has done. It's very easy to claim 'hubris' on someone else. I've studied Bowlby, Ainsworth, Levine, Heller. And also Nietzsche, Popper, Spinoza, Descartes, Euclid, Newton, Einstein, Hitchens, Sam Harris, and some wonderful helpful YouTube coaches such as Narcology, NarcAway, Michelle Lee Nieves, Richard Grannon and various others.

I'm not trying to troll or devalue other people's trauma. Quite the opposite. I'm trying to help people.

The biggest trouble people have is dealing with cognitive dissonance. Do they know what they're doing? If I say the right thing, will they change? Maybe if I just explained, they'd get it. I was stuck there for a long time. But that's one of the narcissist's biggest weapons - false hope.

Avoidant aren't narcissists, they are different. But the point is does anyone on this forum looking for answers and hope REALLY want to spend their lives trying to fix someone, to explain how to treat another human being with kindness and empathy, in the hope they'll recover the early, idealised, 'honeymoon' period, because their other half doesn't have that level of maturiry, or it's underdeveloped, in the hope that one day they'll understand?

If someone has reached their 30s and still can't work out why flying off the handle isn't the best way to deal with things, suffer from ego injury, can't be there for them when a loved one is ill, scared, insecure, vulnerable or ... human! Then, I'm sorry, they need to grow up. I don't care how abusive they're childhood was, you can't suck the life out of other people's happiness who are already caring and empathetic. I realise it's not black and white, and that PTSD, or C-PTSD takes a long time to overcome, but the pervasive trait of an avoidant is that they put themselves first, and have trouble dealing with other people's problems, and withdraw. Maybe I'm callous, but that just seems immature and selfish to me. There are people on here looking for answers, and trying to put their lives back together - And the CAUSE was avoidant attachment, and whatever recursively caused that in the first place, at the end of the day, if someone can't be there for you when they need them, why the f**k should you be there for them when they need you?! Whatever their issues, and whatever they need to work through, people end up on the other side with their lives being ruined because there people can't deal with their own emotional issues.

It was levelled at me that my posts were emotional, but that's my point! Everyone has emotions. Everyone gets scared, or insecure, or irrational or over-emotional at times. Or drunk. We all get drunk, and stuff comes out, and we act how we don't want to, but come on! We're not 15 any more. There is NO excuse for being a dick. To anyone, but especially those you care about, and if, as an adult, you can't work that out for yourself, then why should they deserve people spending time, sometimes years, trying to help them, focussing on them, trying to heal them, trying to understand their issues, being there for them, showing them kindness and compassion and tolerance when it's all one-way? That's the definition of co-dependency, empaths, people-pleasers, fixers - the infinite optimist that keeps humping the dream until they die and they never fully lived for themselves because it was eclipsed by the dark shadow of someone who needed help to discover basic humanity.

This is why I say avoidants and narcissists are the same thing. Not FAs. They had an NPD parent, and were usually the scapegoat child, so they can heal, but it takes a long, long time. But in my experience DAs and narcs are not different. I think the diagnosis may be two terms for the same thing. I've watched avoidants that I work with for many years now, and every time I hope thay they will improve, become self-aware - I see the good, or the potential good in them, I then a couple of weeks later watch them cheat on their spouses, finances and partners, display a sense of entitlement, and put their own (selfish) needs ahead no matter what. I watch them lie with a smile, ruin lives, and wake up in the morning and act like they're a f**king saint. It comes in shades and colours, different words, outfits, and philosophies, but ultimately an avoidant will ruin the life of someone who cares about them before they'll do the smallest thing which would make a difference and would either make other people's lives better - at a deep level - or progress humanity and civilisation as a whole. I realise I'm generalizing here, but I looked for evidence the other way - hoped for it - but everytime the evidence swung the other way, and in the hope that it will help other people who are trying to understand what happened to them and their lives, this is what I learned, and as a form of NLP, it helps. There was nothing you could do, and it WASN'T YOUR FAULT, and these people will continue the same patterns forever more, until the day they die, but you may find a good, kind, caring, loving individual who is worth your life. That's how you heal, and for many it will happen. But we need to stop enabling abuse, and forgiving people who are pricks because 'they don't know what they're doing.' They do. They're just good and getting away with it, and when they get caught, they move on. That's the abusive cycle.

All that being said, I welcome the debate, so bring on the one sentence devaluation.

But for those who are hurting, and struggling to understand - it will take time, and learning, but YOU WILL GET THERE! And all this pain will be an hilarious memory. Trust me. I was there. And I got there. And you will too.

All the love in the world. xxx

(Also, as a PS, Alexandra - I appreciate all the good work you've done on this forum, and clearly you've helped people and they have your back. I respect that. But you said yourself that you'd never want to go back to a relationship with a narc or a DA. They can be friends, even good friends, but you should always keep them at arm's length. And I'm trying to help people in cognitive dissonance, and those who have the false hope of improvement who get stuck in the cycle of idealisation, devaluation, discard/silent treatment, hoover. My intentions are good, and I hope that you can see that.)

And one last thing, sorry - but I've just reread the earlier posts and discussions -

Alexandra, with all your and other's accusations of me being a narcissist and angry and etc etc, you wrote, and I quote ' The vast majority of my avoidant exes haven't progressed, and I wouldn't know about the personality disordered exes since I got the eff away from them and have them blocked [as soon] as possible.'

Aren't you, and I mean no disrespect or snide one-upmanship here, aren't you actually agreeing with me? And saying that in your experience, that despite everything, this has borne out to be true? Avoidants and narcissists don't/can't change? And it's not worth the heartache and hell of those in relationships with them to hope that they might be the lucky 5% where they do. And even if they do - it's only partial. Never the basic human care and compassion that every innocent, vulnerable human being deserves? Just an uphill struggle.

I’m in a relationship with a DA and he is by no means a narcissist. He doesn’t come close to matching the definition. If you do all the reading and research you’ll find no correlation between the two.

DA’s are often very direct, honest and don’t want the spotlight. Opposite of a narcissist. Mine has never lied to me or gaslighted me.

You can find immoral, dishonest people across ALL attachment styles: anxious, avoidant and secure. Attachment styles are just one small part of each complex person.

@inmourning- Hey, I always watch her videos! She was just speaking today in her live webinar of DA’s vs narcissists, if that’s the one you mean.

She also has a video dedicated to that topic. She’s a former FA w a recovered DA and I couldn’t agree with her analysis more based on other research I’ve read and also what I’ve personally seen in my DA the past 2.5 years. He’s on the opposite end of a narc! Seriously!!

@inmourning - Yes, Thais mentioned just today she tends to talk too much and tries to limit herself. Lol My DA actually asked a very vulnerable question tonight that I recall he asked a couple years ago “Why do you love me?”

So honest and raw- he only opens up like this in very small windows. He really seems to believe in his core that no one would ever love him for him. He finds it so hard to believe I’d stand by him. And I’ve stood by him through thick and thin, always. I never left.

I replied that I don’t love him for what he does or doesn’t do, I love him for who he is. I said I hope you can believe that bc it’s true. He said that he did, but it seems to me a prevailing doubt inside of him....that he’s not good enough. Do you feel that way as a DA? I know it’s an AP trait to feel unlovable, but I didn’t think avoidants also did?