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Post by alexandra on Nov 5, 2019 5:26:06 GMT
Boundaries are not about controlling someone's behavior. They are about removing yourself from harmful behavior, or deciding for yourself what is ok and what is not in your relationships. It's useless to make a boundary you can't or won't enforce. This is all very familiar information about boundaries though. This is seriously not familiar to an unaware AP. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 5:28:20 GMT
@shiningstar thanks for that explanation. I feel good about our friendship. And a light does go on for him when I say something to have his back. He says it feels good to be understood and that it makes him feel like he's not crazy to be as hurt as he is.
I do think he will be hurt if she ends it but he is consistently talking about finding the nerve. I just stand back and say I'll be there no matter what, life is big. Something will become clear over time. I just really hate to see him in the turmoil he's in is all.
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Post by happyidiot on Nov 5, 2019 5:28:32 GMT
What does "not accept" mean? Is it supposed to be an ultimatum? What exactly happens if the other person doesn't retract or cease their comments? And when someone says they won't tolerate something and their actions say otherwise, then what? It is worse than if they hadn't even said anything. Yes it's much better than, "You treat me like shit," but I still feel like it's not clear and that there has to be a better alternative. Maybe something with some feeling words in there too? I'm not sure. Huh? I wasn't trying to give any specific example hence the xyz. Does it not make sense to say something like "I won't accept name calling?" and the boundary consequence is up to the individual. For many healthy people, it's a matter of deciding what level boundaries to have, what's negotiable and what's not. Non negotiable boundaries spell incompatibility. If someone says they won't tolerate actions but then do, they have an issue to resolve I guess. Why are you questioning me specifically like this, I don't have everyone's answers but there is tons of literature available on making boundaries for oneself, and enforcing them. I wasn't asking for you to fill in the details of what the xyz means, that can be anything, but what "not accept" means. "Not accept" is vague to me. It sounded like you were suggesting it could be something your AP friend could say to his partner, so I guess I'm putting myself in his shoes (as someone who has a chunk of AP-ness in my mix) and finding it... confusing. It sounds like I have better boundaries and higher self-esteem than your friend does, and I'm still finding it confusing. And it sounds like something that an AP might say and then just do nothing about when it didn't work to get them better treatment. I'm asking you specifically what it means to you because you were the one who suggested it as an example of appropriate/effective boundary communication. If you told someone "I won't accept xyz" and then they kept doing it, what would you do? The words "not accept" make it sound non-negotiable to me. Just trying to ask some questions that might help bring up things you might want to consider in advising your friend. Does that make more sense? |
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Post by happyidiot on Nov 5, 2019 5:31:16 GMT
A basic example of a specific boundary and consequence: ( these are hard boundaries around verbal abuse, as discussed in this thread) I will not tolerate name calling. If you call me names, the discussion is over and I will go do something that I enjoy until we are able to have a discussion that doesn't include name calling. Ah, this one is a lot more clear to me, when it states an actionable consequence. It could even be said without the first sentence. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 5:31:57 GMT
@inmourning , what really stinks to me about all this is, since he's apparently not drawing the connection between the pain/ anxiety and where it's actually coming from (his attachment issues and issues with himself... she's a symptom not the cause), he's going to keep finding mean women who treat him like this and wonder why. So even if/when they break up, he's going to keep struggling and repeating dynamics and wondering why this keeps happening and blame himself. But the blame will be about his shortcomings as a romantic partner, not about his choices in women, which is why it won't improve. He'll be asking the wrong questions. But that's part of the definition of unaware, I suppose. But ugh, that text she sent him was so horrible in its disrespect! We actually do talk about that. The conversation becomes ( if he can extricate himself) that he would seek counseling to work on his issues. He has trauma and attachment issues. In fact, as a group of friends we all were talking and his male friends said it too... JJ you pick mean women, you gotta get to the bottom of that. So, the dialog is being had, it's just not all clear to him at this point. I think he has a good group of friends who love him. And I'm a close confidant but his other homeys chime in the same. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 5:34:48 GMT
A basic example of a specific boundary and consequence: ( these are hard boundaries around verbal abuse, as discussed in this thread) I will not tolerate name calling. If you call me names, the discussion is over and I will go do something that I enjoy until we are able to have a discussion that doesn't include name calling. Ah, this one is a lot more clear to me, when it states an actionable consequence. It could even be said without the first sentence. The first sentence is a declaration he needs to make to himself. I'm not actually trying to put words in his mouth I'm just giving examples of the objective. Not every boundary has to be hard. Some can be brought up softer, in ways I don't want to elaborate on now. But boundaries around verbal abuse warrant a very firm stand and clear ways of enforcing them. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 5:52:13 GMT
@inmourning , what really stinks to me about all this is, since he's apparently not drawing the connection between the pain/ anxiety and where it's actually coming from (his attachment issues and issues with himself... she's a symptom not the cause), he's going to keep finding mean women who treat him like this and wonder why. So even if/when they break up, he's going to keep struggling and repeating dynamics and wondering why this keeps happening and blame himself. But the blame will be about his shortcomings as a romantic partner, not about his choices in women, which is why it won't improve. He'll be asking the wrong questions. But that's part of the definition of unaware, I suppose. But ugh, that text she sent him was so horrible in its disrespect! When he started sharing the things she actually says to him I got mad. It's just horrible. That's what I mean by demeaning him, belittling him. He's kept it all inside for a while. But my reactions to it are validating to him. You cannot talk to a partner like that. Not a man nor a woman! There is a name for that type of tactic- making things into an extreme. Like, "Well you wrote a novel so I guess I have to take time off work to read it so you don't cry in your pudding.." is something I could imagine her saying. All this exaggerated bullshit meant to demean him. Gross. Unacceptable. She doesn't deserve him. I'd love to say that to her face, but I would stay calm and use my manners, I wouldn't go low with her. |
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Post by happyidiot on Nov 5, 2019 7:10:55 GMT
@inmourning , what really stinks to me about all this is, since he's apparently not drawing the connection between the pain/ anxiety and where it's actually coming from (his attachment issues and issues with himself... she's a symptom not the cause), he's going to keep finding mean women who treat him like this and wonder why. So even if/when they break up, he's going to keep struggling and repeating dynamics and wondering why this keeps happening and blame himself. But the blame will be about his shortcomings as a romantic partner, not about his choices in women, which is why it won't improve. He'll be asking the wrong questions. But that's part of the definition of unaware, I suppose. But ugh, that text she sent him was so horrible in its disrespect! AP-ness doesn't realize you can choose a partner. It thinks that who we are drawn to is something we can do absolutely nothing about and that being drawn to someone means we have to be with them. It takes a lot of time and work to come to the realization that this is something we can change. That people aren't treating us badly because we deserve it, and that we can choose not to be with people who treat us badly. It's like telling a drug addict they can choose not to do drugs. That can actually feel pretty insulting and clueless to someone caught up in the throes of addiction, unless/until they eventually realize that something being a choice doesn't mean it's easy, but someday if you change your thinking something will change and you will be able to make that choice, and someday further down the road it may actually eventually be an easy and automatic choice. |
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Post by anne12 on Nov 5, 2019 7:54:43 GMT
His girlfriend sounds toxic.
"You can not teach me this way" ... and his reaction could be a "natural fight responce"
(and not a protest behavior)
If she is a narsissist/got anti social personality traits/has got narsisstic traits ect, then you often can't use normal boundarie setting with them. It's about staying calm and not taking the bait. Grey rock if boundarie setting doesn't work. Narcs aspd often has an aggressive or passive aggressive anger pattern. It can be combined with historic personality traits. Woman with these traits manipulate more than men and can use their sexuality to get you hooked ect. Getting out of the relationship could be a good thing of course
He could have a tiny bit of trauma/desorganized attatchment style also -,and get further pushed into insecure attatchment style / get more traumatized / get a more dysregulated nerveussystem.
Narc/aspd/(bdp) women can use different technices than men.
It can also be a taboo for a man to admit that he is being violated by a woman in a relationship.
Maybe you can tell him that you are worried about him and direct him to some information about npd/aspd/bad behavior in relationships and ask if he can regonise some of the behaviors in his girlfriend. Maybe he needs time to read and think about it. A link with a therapist specialized in men being in relationships with women who violates them could also be helpful maybe.
There's also the narsissim summit right now. You can maybe send him the link. Ramani Durvasulas webinar was good.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 8:02:47 GMT
Ah, this one is a lot more clear to me, when it states an actionable consequence. It could even be said without the first sentence. The first sentence is a declaration he needs to make to himself. I'm not actually trying to put words in his mouth I'm just giving examples of the objective. Not every boundary has to be hard. Some can be brought up softer, in ways I don't want to elaborate on now. But boundaries around verbal abuse warrant a very firm stand and clear ways of enforcing them. I feel that there's no need to draw boundaries around verbal abuse - it should immediately GET OUT NOWWWWWWWW. she sounds super mean, and very explicitly so. there were times that my ex was very mean to me but in a very clever way that does not sound like abuse if I was saying it to someone else. This though is a different level of mean! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 12:59:41 GMT
anne12 and @shiningstar, I agree with both of you. It's a toxic relationship, I don't know if she is actually NPD but her behavior is over the top. It's unlikely that he would leave. So, I will just support him and speak truth to the situation and him. I do pass videos to him, if watch one that I think he'll appreciate. I think it can take a long time for a person to realize anything when they are caught in a cycle of harm like this. He has a good support system so hopefully he will get to a better place. It's sad.
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