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Post by fa1972 on Dec 26, 2019 1:22:16 GMT
Connecting with my DA in relationship for the past seven years has been incredibly transformational for me in many ways. There have been many incredibly painful periods along the way, but ultimately this relationship has been the catalyst that's pushed me into self growth and even mastery. Unlike any other connection in my life, this interaction has pushed me to my limits and made me into the person that I am proud to be today.
1. I am primarily a fearful avoidant person who is closer to being secure in my attachments than I ever have been before. My confusion in interacting with my DA is what lead me into a journey of introspection, translating into a six year stint in therapy where I was exposed to the concept of attachment. Seeing the push/pull and how they've interacted with me has forced me to look at the ways that I've been avoidant with many people in my life. I tend to enforce strict boundaries with my secure and anxiously attached friendships but I then tend to be anxious when it comes to interacting with someone who is dismissive. I've had to work on myself to both OPEN myself to love and be emotionally vulnerable to those people who show genuine care for me while at the same time enforce tighter boundaries with my DA; which makes him more comfortable.
2. Watching how my DA lives his life is something I greatly admire. While I don't want to become a dismissive avoidant; I've been able to incorporate some of my DA's coping mechanisms and it's changed my life. Specifically being able to self-soothe, to know that I have my own back! We all need people in our lives, but for me, it was very important for me to learn that I can count on myself! I've watched how my DA treats himself very well. He takes care of himself! His expectation is not that other people will take care of him at all. He handles himself in a way that is very different than how I usually have been. His level of self containment and self confidence is definitely something that was lacking in my life.
3. My DA has made me deeply question my motives. As a fearful avoidant, I learned early that I give and receive love by DOING. Mostly OVER doing actually. I tend to over insinuate myself into a situation when it involves someone I care about. I over give both in physical ways and in emotional ways. I never gave this much thought...I just thought I was just a very nice person! Interacting with my DA over the years has shown me that there have been many times I've given with strings attached. I've given with the idea that I can manage someone else's behavior and shape it to make them be or act the way I want them to be. As you all know, DA's will refuse to be manipulated and can see through this easily. No matter how lavish my gifts have been, he never responded in a typical way or in a way that I wanted him to. I was essentially trying to buy his emotional validation. This is still something I'm working on. I'm trying to manage what is essentially a good thing. Learning to be truly generous without needing or expecting something in return.
4. Overall interacting with my DA has shown me the broad spectrum that all of us navigate as we interact with each other. The differences should be celebrated not judged and criticized and labeled as something negative. If we were all exactly the same, how boring life would be. My relationship has shown me how differently all of us process our emotions, thoughts and relationships. Once I was able to remove the judgement, a lot of my anxiety went away. The simple fact is this. My DA is not thinking about me the way I am about him. He's not analyzing my reactions, my emotions and my thoughts the way I've been his. He's living his life. He uses coping mechanisms (some good, some bad) that work for him. This has often been a huge source of pain for me. It tends to make me feel like he doesn't give a shit about me. That's far from true. He's never going to gush out his emotions at me. NOT EVER. And if that's something I require, I need to interact with someone who's more secure in their attachment style. But I know beyond anything, that if I ever truly needed him for something, he'd be there in an instant.
I continue to be in this relationship because it continues to challenge me and make me grow. I use my other relationships for different things. I have deeper emotional time with some of my more secure friendships. With my DA, there are moments of intimacy or closeness but that's usually followed by a period of time when they withdraw. Instead of taking this personally, I now understand he NEEDS that time. Like it's his survival. The attachment anxiety that often would cut me at my core and keep me awake at night, is EXACTLY the same panic he feels when he feels like the relationship is engulfing him.
Interacting with a DA is not easy and I'll never say it is. But it's been one of the most pivotal and life changing interactions I've ever had with another human being. I continue to be triggered at times with his passivity and lack of emotional language and engagement but I know that's never going to change and I've stopped expecting it to. I've also see him be incredibly kind and patient with me when I have an emotional outburst. I've seen him navigate the tricky waters of my emotions even though he doesn't want to. Underneath his tough exterior is a beautiful and sensitive soul. I interact with him these days in a sensible way. I save the emotions for other friends. I've learned that what he needs from me more than anything is is consistency. Unconditional positive regard. When I have to speak with him about something I make sure to word it in a way that doesn't feel like an outright attack or criticism. I'm very grateful for this experience and even though it's been the toughest relationship I've ever been in, I wouldn't trade any of it for the world.
I will say that while I have become more self aware through therapy and introspection, he has mainly only become more dismissive avoidant, lol. I hope the point of this post is not taken as allowing people to emotionally or physically abuse anyone. I do still call him on his shit when necessary but he's fairly aware of his issues anyway. The point of this post is really for people who truly love their DA and are tired of the emotional roller coaster. We can't control THEM, we can only control ourselves and by not only accepting him but also learning from him; I have been able to make this relationship better for both of us. If and when it no longer works for either of us, then it will be time to say goodbye. Even though I hope that day never comes, I know that I will be OK no matter what, and IRONICALLY it's because of this relationship that I'm at a place where I can say that.
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Post by serenity on Dec 26, 2019 20:20:27 GMT
Its good to be positive, but I wanted to tell you that your post makes me feel a little concerned. Yes, you have been forced to learn dissociation and auto regulation in order to continue loving your partner - just as he learned those things to deal with the absence of secure, bonded love in childhood. You've empatheticly taken on his trauma, you're living it out, when you do not need to. Your emotional and human bonding needs are neglected by your primary attachment figure, and you frequently feel ostracized by him. Even after years, you have no trust that you have a future to look forward to with him, and you've learned to be cool with that too. Did you also give up on your desire for a healthy bonded family and raising children with your partner, I wonder? No judgement about that, not everyone wants family or you may already have passed that phase, but I just hope its not the case. The trauma bonded mind can trick us into accepting the loss of dreams and hopes, as well as most of our connection needs.
In the long run, you can do better than living out someone else's trauma. DA attachment is an extreme response to an ostracized childhood, its not a healing strategy, and ostracizing people who love you harms them. That's how all this started...he was mistreated, as you are now.
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Post by amber on Dec 26, 2019 21:49:26 GMT
Serenity I’ve read trauma bonding happens in a r/ship where you are being abused... can this happen in a r/ship with an FA/DA partner where there isn’t abuse but just distancing, deactivation etc? Thanks so much for your info, as I think I’m trauma bonded to my recent ex FA. We split five weeks ago and I’m still having strong feelings of wanting him back, trying to strategise ways to make it work... but I see if it was to work I would have to forego my own needs and dreams. It’s funny because it feels so believable, these thoughts. It makes sense though because my mother was very loving at times and violent at other times, from when I was a small child...so I assume I’ve mixed up feelings of love with poor treatment/abandonment etc. feels extremely confusing and difficult to try to undo...
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Post by alexandra on Dec 26, 2019 22:02:54 GMT
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Post by amber on Dec 26, 2019 23:11:16 GMT
Thankyou alexandra. I’ve read about the three phases of the narcissist in r/ships:overvaluation, devaluation and discard. Is it possible an FA can go through these phases too? My ex FA was not a narcissist but I certainly think he went through these phases with me...I wonder what the connection is and why thisnolsys out. Total inability to actually maintain bond with someone long term? My ex had never had a healthy romantic r/ship in his life at age 49
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Post by alexandra on Dec 26, 2019 23:40:30 GMT
Thankyou alexandra. I’ve read about the three phases of the narcissist in r/ships:overvaluation, devaluation and discard. Is it possible an FA can go through these phases too? My ex FA was not a narcissist but I certainly think he went through these phases with me...I wonder what the connection is and why thisnolsys out. Total inability to actually maintain bond with someone long term? My ex had never had a healthy romantic r/ship in his life at age 49 Yes, I've had it happen to me, too. It's not due to lack of empathy, though, like it is for NPD, and it's not necessarily a permanent state. It's nervous system triggers and fantasy projection overriding the fear at first coupled with the general unknown when you first get together with someone (do they really like me?). The attention and validation plus lack of real bonding and commitment before you truly know someone makes for an overactive and anxiously triggered nervous system. Fear of abandonment plus hormones racing at play. When things become more stable, the FA who feels comfortable with instability, suddenly gets overwhelmed by the intimacy and feeling you may be sticking around (which is scary, what if they attach and you eventually leave?), and then their nervous system goes the opposite way and shuts down. Fear of engulfment and distancing techniques set in. This can be nitpicking, focusing only on the negative, and pushing you completely away -- looking like a discard until their nervous system resets back to normal. It's a self-defense and coping mechanism, but again, it's not caused by lack of empathy and lack of capacity to see and care about another person as an independent and autonomous individual. You didn't do anything to cause it and it can definitely be part of the cycle. But it still sucks, feels bad, and can't really be fixed by you. That doesn't mean the FA is malicious, as NPD often are, but the end result is still an inability to have a healthy and stable deep connection. And of course, it isn't conscious or intentional on the FA's side. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 26, 2019 23:45:54 GMT
amber, my hypothesis on the connection is difficulty with object permanence and object constancy. NPD lacks it completely. FA has difficulty with it (ie their inconsistency in identity).
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Post by alexandra on Dec 26, 2019 23:53:39 GMT
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Post by amber on Dec 27, 2019 0:18:01 GMT
Thank you this is awesome! I like how the article says they relate to parts rather than the whole. I noticed subtle reactions from my ex when I told him I’d made plans In future to go away by myself...it wasn’t obvious but subtle. I think this caused him to disconnect from me as perhaps he feared I was abandoning him.
There’s obviously a split here...black and white thinking. I see this in myself sometimes after living with a BPD mother.after the argument we had he told me it undermined his trust in me.seemed like a big overreaction as the argument wasn’t that bad IMO.
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Post by nyc718 on Dec 27, 2019 4:40:05 GMT
Its good to be positive, but I wanted to tell you that your post makes me feel a little concerned. Yes, you have been forced to learn dissociation and auto regulation in order to continue loving your partner - just as he learned those things to deal with the absence of secure, bonded love in childhood. You've empatheticly taken on his trauma, you're living it out, when you do not need to. Your emotional and human bonding needs are neglected by your primary attachment figure, and you frequently feel ostracized by him. Even after years, you have no trust that you have a future to look forward to with him, and you've learned to be cool with that too. Did you also give up on your desire for a healthy bonded family and raising children with your partner, I wonder? No judgement about that, not everyone wants family or you may already have passed that phase, but I just hope its not the case. The trauma bonded mind can trick us into accepting the loss of dreams and hopes, as well as most of our connection needs. In the long run, you can do better than living out someone else's trauma. DA attachment is an extreme response to an ostracized childhood, its not a healing strategy, and ostracizing people who love you harms them. That's how all this started...he was mistreated, as you are now. Yeah, I was going to say, a lot of what I read is so much what I aspire NOT to be - someone whose (reasonable) needs are not being met by someone who is not working on themselves. Am I misunderstanding? And the part about staying in the relationship because it continues to challenge and force you to grow? I am not looking for a challenging relationship, and I am not looking to grow at the expense of continued "passivity and lack of emotional language and engagement" on my partner's part. Just...no. I am not going to judge if this relationship works for someone, but personally as someone who has been working on myself for a long time and had significant breakthroughs, especially in the last almost six weeks out of a breakup with an FA who I loved very much, this is not the kind of relationship that sounds healthy for me at all. Pain has caused me to grow significantly, but I am not interested in being in a relationship that causes me pain on a regular basis, and somehow justify it as a healthy way to live if I just look at it from a different perspective, and just allow my partner to dismiss my emotional needs while I bend over all over the place to make sure he's taken care of.. and continues to become more dismissively avoidant? |
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Post by mrob on Dec 27, 2019 4:48:05 GMT
...and I think it’s just fine. I know I’d be triggered anxious from time to time, but I think that would be more comfortable, and more positive if that makes any sense, than being triggered avoidant.
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Post by fa1972 on Dec 27, 2019 15:01:31 GMT
This post comes after years of push/pull dynamics... The whole cycle has played out many many times. The DA distances himself, I react which then makes them pull back even further. I then end up being the one to apologize and reconnect. I have -tried- to disconnect many, many times. I am aware of the physiological addiction response that happens when our attachment styles are activated.
I have just chosen to surrender. I can't control them, I can only control myself. I have many dynamic, mutual, emotionally fulfilling relationships in my life and I take a great amount of support from them. My DA though remains someone that I love and deeply care about and I recognize that they are a human being. I went down the road of thinking they perhaps have NPD or some other disorder on the sociopathic spectrum but the fact is he doesn't exhibit the grandiosity or the intentional malignancy that these people show. I think we're all a little too quick to label people with these disorders when it fits the narrative that we tell ourselves about them.
My focus is on MYSELF and my own self growth and this relationship, for all it's faults, continues to push me in the right direction. This is not me just being a suffering martyr either! Their reactions, thoughts, feelings and actions are none of my business! I am not responsible for them, they are. What I am responsible for is how I respond to them and how they affect me.
My DA's primary coping mechanism to life is that HE takes care of HIMSELF and he expects other people to take care of themselves as well. The fact that he still is engaged in this relationship is important and something I no longer take for granted. He does actually show his care for me.. the trick is to allow him to show it in his own way..not the way I need him to.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 27, 2019 18:39:04 GMT
fa1972, there are different types of NPD and narcissism beyond overt and malignant. @inmourning posted a link about the covert type (which I believe can also be called vulnerable or cerebral) jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/2332/on-covert-narcissism. Not every narcissist seems malicious either. There's a rare type that's actually very generous, but it's because they get their attention and validation (the primary motivation) from others telling them how good they are. But ultimately, it's about pathology and lack of empathy. I'm not saying your bf is a narcissist or not, I have no idea, I just want you to have as much information as possible to make your decisions. And do whatever relationship truly works for you. But your mentioning you think your bf may be one but he doesn't fit the more common type bothers me. You shouldn't settle for someone you've suspected of narcissism because that indicates you're getting treated very poorly, which may be why you're compromising your narrative. FA also have been shown to be more tolerant of abusive relationships.
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Post by fa1972 on Dec 28, 2019 2:56:45 GMT
I'm not sure that I've been able to convey my thoughts coherently here. Ultimately, I'm trying to stop (even myself) from demonizing the dismissive avoidant. At the same time, I am not trying to "glorify" their behavior either. My point is that I do believe that with a lot of effort, hard work, and self introspection one can actually have a successful relationship with a DA. For so long my focus has been on them. What they're NOT doing, how they're not behaving in a manner that reassures and validates my (triggered) attachment needs. But why do they have to? Understanding that his brain processes relationships and emotions completely different from me is just a straight forward point. Why does there need to be a negative connotation to it? Have I been hurt by him? Yes! But I have also hurt him as well, very much so. DA's need consistency more than anything. They, along with any other human being, need to feel safe. What makes him feel safe is very different from what makes me feel safe. When I KNOWINGLY push for him for a level of emotional connection that I know he can't provide: he feels unsafe. He feels enmeshed. I have found that providing consistent, stable, emotionally secure interaction with him have usually resulted in him giving me what I need in terms of reliability, and a steady place for me. And guess what? HE is not responsible for self worth, for MY self esteem, for making ME OK. I am. This article make my point much more eloquently than I can. medium.com/@krisgage/how-to-love-someone-whos-guarded-30b9913fb0cbHere's a quote :"They don’t need to know that they’re okay. They already know that. They need to be reassured that you’re okay — without always being the one to reassure you." So it comes back to me. How I view myself. What parts of me am I trying to heal through the relationship and how in the world is that up to another person, DA or not. |
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Post by fa1972 on Dec 28, 2019 3:06:38 GMT
And in terms of whole object relations and object constancy:
I am very familiar with both terms (yes, even as an FA) and both concepts have been extremely helpful in how I interact with people. Whole object refers to seeing the entire person (and that's kind of my point here.) Rather than seeing someone as all good or all bad, seeing both the positive and the negative aspects of an individual without painting the entire person as one or the other.
The other concept that's important and plays into object constancy is that of "splitting." I believe that Alexandra may be assuming that I'm currently in the pedestal part of the "split." And she would be right. I have done this many times with my DA. With a lot of work, that is not actually where I am now. Actually I am moving away from the idea of "splitting."
Essentially it's where you swing back and for between idealizing someone and then demonizing them. Adoring them one minute and then hating them the next. Object constancy refers to the idea of maintaining a positive opinion of someone even when that person hurts me or is absent.
These concepts can be life changing when fully understood and integrated.
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