|
|
Post by dhali on Jan 23, 2020 21:41:00 GMT
I will also say, that self diagnosing is very hard. It took me a really long time to realize I am FA, and that's with knowing all the things. Mainly because it's a soft FA. I definatly knew I had the anxious stuff - because how could you not. But I'm mostly secure there - self cured/diagnosed years ago. I just saw it as too needy, and didn't like that. So while I may get triggered there, generally, it's fine. I didn't realize the avoidant part though. That was much tougher to see. The reality is I've bailed on any significant relationship I've had in my life. Once it's taken over a decade. She's still the best human that's ever invested in me. I'm friends with her, but she's my baby momma, remarried, and it took a ton of work. Mostly on her part because, what a nightmare I must have been - unknowingly. I've since let her know that I am now aware of some of my nightmarish relationship things. I'm also friends with her husband. Ironically, because we were together 14 years, I can have vulnerable conversations with her, but it only goes 1 way. Me to her. It would be inappropriate the other way. I care about her a lot, and I think she cares about me in a baby daddy sort of way - if that makes sense. She's really important to me. I'm not all that important to her - but that's ok, I shouldn't be. She's still really good to me, and that's better than I ever expected.
|
|
|
|
Post by dhali on Jan 23, 2020 21:41:51 GMT
nyc- ok, fair enough. Didn't mean to be that presumptuous. As for the rest, then great. I have an old best friend from HS who is female. I agreed it's possible. You seem to think gender doesn't matter. I do.
|
|
|
|
Post by nyc718 on Jan 23, 2020 21:42:38 GMT
BTW- I now view a woman with a stable of ex's (and a man with the same), as a huge red flag. It's not the sign of maturity you think. It really depends on the relationship and how you both have evolved over time. Like I said, it was years before my ex and I reconnected as friends, and he was living across the country. We were never going to be together romantically again, but we were friends. If anything, it take a lot of maturity to be true friends. If either of you are unhealed with lingering unresolved issues that you are dancing around, then yes, that's not mature. |
|
|
|
Post by dhali on Jan 23, 2020 21:46:28 GMT
"stable" of ex's. Not an ex who is a "friend". And I will contend, even though you don't agree, that sharing intimacy (friendship or otherwise) with someone who isn't a romantic partner, while you have a romantic partner, is damaging to your relationship with your SO. I understand you probably don't agree. As for my friendships, I don't seek out those guard rails. As I said, old sibling-like ones don't count. My best friend from HS certainly qualifies as that.
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jan 23, 2020 21:48:22 GMT
BTW- I now view a woman with a stable of ex's (and a man with the same), as a huge red flag. It's not the sign of maturity you think. I disagree with this. I think it can be a red flag, but it entirely depends on the person. It can be a sign of insecure attachment (most likely anxious-leaning, either AP or FA), but it can also be a sign of relationships with a deep friendship component and later maturity. I think if it appears in tandem with other red flags and weak boundaries, it's a red flag. If there aren't other glaring red flags besides a few friends who are also exes, then you need more information. If friendships evolved after periods of no contact, and the friendships have been stable for a long time (probably years, each has dated other people during that time, neither seems stuck on the ex, there were sensible incompatibilities), I don't think it means anything to worry about. I will say that I've had a couple situations with guys who had feelings for me but wanted to stay friends after I turned them down. In all cases, I said I don't want to speak for a while because (paraphrasing) my boundary is I don't want an orbiter friendship so no matter what you think in this moment, I won't be comfortable with this until you have time to get over me first. Months later, we've picked the friendships back up. No residual feelings, orbiting, or problems. One of these situations we've stayed friends for 20 years, and he's been with his now wife for most of them, and she knows about it and she and I are good friends too. It DOES require sniffing out agendas and taking distance or leaving for good if there are any. Again, goes back to good boundaries (which red flag insecures may not have) and communication and mutual effort. But if there aren't agendas, it's hard to find high quality people in life. I will stay in touch if we were incompatible romantically but the friendship still works. This doesn't stop me from moving on at this point in my life (if it does, we'd need more time apart OR should not try to ever be friends). And people who think this is a threat or red flag about me are not the kind of people I'd be compatible with anyway for dating, so that's okay. |
|
|
|
Post by dhali on Jan 23, 2020 21:55:02 GMT
BTW- I now view a woman with a stable of ex's (and a man with the same), as a huge red flag. It's not the sign of maturity you think. I disagree with this. I think it can be a red flag, but it entirely depends on the person. It can be a sign of insecure attachment (most likely anxious-leaning, either AP or FA), but it can also be a sign of relationships with a deep friendship component and later maturity. I think if it appears in tandem with other red flags and weak boundaries, it's a red flag. If there aren't other glaring red flags besides a few friends who are also exes, then you need more information. If friendships evolved after periods of no contact, and the friendships have been stable for a long time (probably years, each has dated other people during that time, neither seems stuck on the ex, there were sensible incompatibilities), I don't think it means anything to worry about. I will say that I've had a couple situations with guys who had feelings for me but wanted to stay friends after I turned them down. In all cases, I said I don't want to speak for a while because (paraphrasing) my boundary is I don't want an orbiter friendship so no matter what you think in this moment, I won't be comfortable with this until you have time to get over me first. Months later, we've picked the friendships back up. No residual feelings, orbiting, or problems. One of these situations we've stayed friends for 20 years, and he's been with his now wife for most of them, and she knows about it and she and I are good friends too. It DOES require sniffing out agendas and taking distance or leaving for good if there are any. Again, goes back to good boundaries (which red flag insecures may not have) and communication and mutual effort. But if there aren't agendas, it's hard to find high quality people in life. I will stay in touch if we were incompatible romantically but the friendship still works. This doesn't stop me from moving on at this point in my life (if it does, we'd need more time apart OR should not try to ever be friends). And people who think this is a threat or red flag about me are not the kind of people I'd be compatible with anyway for dating, so that's okay. Ahem... "The only way it could work is if the friendship runs really deep. To the point of being sibling-like, imo" The other key phrase is "stable" of ex's, not friends with an ex after a lot of vetting. If I'm dating a woman who is in regular contact and hangs out with 4+ ex's on a regular basis, I'm out. Surely you can find other friends. I'll agree to disagree on this. |
|
|
|
Post by nyc718 on Jan 23, 2020 22:37:53 GMT
"stable" of ex's. Not an ex who is a "friend". And I will contend, even though you don't agree, that sharing intimacy (friendship or otherwise) with someone who isn't a romantic partner, while you have a romantic partner, is damaging to your relationship with your SO. I understand you probably don't agree. As for my friendships, I don't seek out those guard rails. As I said, old sibling-like ones don't count. My best friend from HS certainly qualifies as that. I actually agree, sharing intimacy with someone who isn't a romantic partner can be damaging and crossing boundaries, but I wasn't in a relationship when I went to my ex boyfriend who then was a friend. Again, we have different definitions of friendship. |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jan 23, 2020 22:40:27 GMT
dhali, you'd probably call my 6 exes I consider friends a stable, right? But if you observed us, you'd see no threat on either side, and I've got nothing to hide. However -- I probably would have fewer if I wasn't AP for most of my dating life. I give you that. At this point, they are grandfathered in though 🤣 I also think there's some gendered stuff in this. As a woman, I don't find opening up and being close to multiple people to dilute the intimacy of my romantic relationships. I know there's been a lot of research and articles about how men often culturally don't get encouraged to open up to a wider community like that (for example, studies with men who die soon after their wives pass because they've lost their only outlet to discuss more deeply emotional things and get connection). That being said, I don't tell other people stuff I don't also share with my partner.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 23, 2020 23:05:55 GMT
BTW- I now view a woman with a stable of ex's (and a man with the same), as a huge red flag. It's not the sign of maturity you think. I wouldn't jump to that conclusion, I'm 43, have had 9 relationships from 19 to now, with generally a year or so off in between. I've known an A-P in a dysfunctional codependent relationship for near a decade. This is not only attachment driving this, but other factors in life. Location (I'm from a large country town of 120,000 people only), luck/chance of meeting someone and timing for both people, general interests, life changing events etc etc So it's not so "black and white" imao. In that time, only in recent times late 30s and forties have I met who I would deem "insecure attached" individuals, it sort of rings true with Jeb's graph after 35 and the majority being Avoidants. |
|
|
|
Post by Dualcitizen on Jan 23, 2020 23:16:23 GMT
This is a great question and I am going to be honest THOUGH please read at the end of what I say because I am having some revelations here. So with my other ex friends, that is how we are...text about life. I meet one of them once a year to do little vacations (also with my girlfriends). I give them advice with their relationships if they want it,etc. But SHIT I am literally starting to realize as I am typing this that these aren't really "normal" friendships. There are unresolved feelings from a few of them towards me (I know because they will elude to that) and I am realizing that in all these cases but maybe 1, we just sort of transitioned into friendships (I broke up with all of them but probably didn't want to lose a lot of what they gave me but not be in a relationship) without really giving it the PROPER time (like probably months or even a year or more) to really get rid of lingering feelings. WHen I am done with someone I am just "done" but that doesn't seem "normal" and now that I am thinking about it, I don't think its normal to have all these exes in my life with the veneer of "friendship" when I KNOW that in some cases the motivations on their part may not be sincere. So yeah, to answer your question dhali ...do I really need my exes around to talk about my life? I don't think so. I think I am getting something else out of this. I really do. I just need to do more soul searching to figure it out. Damn it....this forum is a blessing and a curse. A curse in that I hear things I don't want to, but a blessing in that I really do need to. I also test always "secure" on the attachment things and have never thought I had issues getting close or intimate (nor have exes told me this) but all of this crap is making me wonder. Is this an AP thing to do? An avoidant thing to do? I don't even know. wow i think my mind is actually blown right now. I'm not even kidding Just from my perspective, I would never keep an ex around to talk about my life in general at all, no use, you find a partner for that, or family/very close friends (no romantic interest generally for me). I am "friendly" with the majority of my exes, only 3 of the 9, I wouldn't really be able to go up and have a chat if I seen them, due to their ego etc. I rarely if at all talk to the other 6, maybe wish a happy birthday or say merry xmas, once a year if that, it's longer in some cases. The only real true reason you would keep an ex around is to reignite at some stage, and tbh, that's fine imao, timing is key, and it may just be sometime in the future, if both still harbour the physical attraction, that it can be reignited if the relationship was largely positive in nature, it's always on the cards. I myself had an ex. come back after 6-7 years, from early 20s, but I never took the opportunity up. It's just that you shouldn't sit around in hope, and you shouldn't be "used & abused" emotionally by that person imao. I would literally say and make it clear in that case, that I can't really be just "friends", and I would keep the door open for a relationship if they ever change their mind, that's how I would approach it personally. The only exception is the F-A, and contact is fortnightly or more atm, but I have obviously made an offer to help her in anyway I can IF she tells me she wants it now. Because I've already overstepped a boundary and "diagnosed" and been slightly judgemental even though said in a loving/mindful way, which she has taken well thankfully. I continue to drop her a line with positive affirmations and tell her she's worthy etc etc (although negative inner critical voice would probably be quashing those positive affirmations quite quickly). Yeah it's interesting you are harbouring potential feelings for most of your exes still years later. I've only had 2 girls that would give me butterflies in the stomach years later, the one I mentioned above coming back is one. But wee weren't "friends" nor did we chat all the time. |
|
|
|
Post by dhali on Jan 24, 2020 0:00:34 GMT
dhali , you'd probably call my 6 exes I consider friends a stable, right? But if you observed us, you'd see no threat on either side, and I've got nothing to hide. However -- I probably would have fewer if I wasn't AP for most of my dating life. I give you that. At this point, they are grandfathered in though 🤣 I also think there's some gendered stuff in this. As a woman, I don't find opening up and being close to multiple people to dilute the intimacy of my romantic relationships. I know there's been a lot of research and articles about how men often culturally don't get encouraged to open up to a wider community like that (for example, studies with men who die soon after their wives pass because they've lost their only outlet to discuss more deeply emotional things and get connection). That being said, I don't tell other people stuff I don't also share with my partner. Good stuff. That last sentence.... even if you're having issues with you partner? Would you tell your girlfriends? you see the "friendship" difference, right? And yes, your 6 friends would classify for me. It's not so much the "threat" as is it - why do you need that? I'd most likely move on as it's a red flag for me. You get to choose pretty much anyone to be a friend with and you have a habit of choosing ex's. Yeah, I'd see that as incompatible. It's not even a threatening thing, though maybe it is. Especially early on in the relationship. I'd probably start wondering if I were being groomed for friendship. That's just me though. For example - the ex I wrote about in the other thread - I'm, pretty sure if I extended the olive branch we'd be "friends" but that wouldn't be a functional friendship. Sure, I'd get invited to her birthday party every year. Whoo! And she'd hug me and ask how I was doing. Fine, I would say. I'd like a few instagram photos. Maybe drop a note here and there if I find something funny. And all for what? the pretense that we are friends? It sounds like a colossal waste of time to me, just so I could probably pine after her. Or she could play games with me subconsciously. Or if I were totally over it, so that I could eventually stop contacting her because life got in the way. And be able to tell the woman I'm dating that I'm so mature that I can still be friends with an ex. And how cool she is. And then that woman doesn't like it, and I have to make a choice. Why would I choose my ex? She left me, and now I'm with a woman I want to be with and I have to make a choice? I certainly wouldn't be upset with the woman I'm dating. She doesn't like a female friendship and wants to take us to the next level. That seems fair to me. It's not always about yourself. |
|
|
|
Post by mrob on Jan 24, 2020 0:21:29 GMT
What an interesting thread. I was picking up my daughter and ex-wife from the airport the other night after an overseas trip, and gave her a quick welcome home hug after my daughters embrace and there was nothing. Just like a friend. This is the first time this has happened in my life. Both ex wives are FB friends even though I haven’t seen the first for close to 20 years. I don’t particularly do friends well, anyway. Intimate or otherwise. Acquaintances or a little closer I can do, but I just can’t do BFFs. I’ve tried to be friends with the ex who brought me here, but I have to try to stay out of her life, just as I had to with my first ex all that time ago. As dhali said, I did that so she could get on with her life unencumbered. It’s not about me. The whole black and white thing in my life feels immature and sad, but that’s where it is. I don’t have enough for everyone. |
|
|
|
Post by amber on Jan 24, 2020 0:35:40 GMT
I don’t think it’s that back and white and I believe some people can genuinely be friends with ex’s but I personally feel it’s a bit weird... I have a lot of close girlfriends and struggle just to make time to see them regularly. I can’t imagine adding ex’s into this mix. A few years ago I realised how precious my time and energy is and now I will only spend it with top quality people who meet me on almost all levels. None of my ex’s would qualify for that... hence why they are ex’s!
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jan 24, 2020 0:42:10 GMT
dhali, I'm very extroverted and know tons of people. So having a few friends who I once also dated is a very tiny portion of my circles. I'm also not playing games with anyone, and I don't groom anyone for anything -- I'm really good and devoted to my partners and don't friend-zone them. As far as if I'm having trouble with a partner, maybe I'll ask friends for advice (is this "normal," how should I address it?), but I'd never just start sharing and/or complaining about a partner without intent to fix and address it with them pretty quickly. That's why I said if it's coupled with other red flags, I do think it's a big warning. You could have used it to figure out I was AP, as I didn't like losing people I cared about. However, to all your points, if someone is insecurely attached, absolutely: this could bleed into boundary problems, jealousy, hiding stuff, playing games, or being an intimacy eroding / distancing tactic. It's also a problem if the new partner is prone to distrust. I'd never recommend someone AP or FA date someone who has several exes as friends, because it will cause projection and triggering. But if people are securely attached, and the ex parts of the relationships are ancient history, I just don't see it as eroding intimacy or being threatening. I actually see having other friends as not relying on your partner to meet every need, and generally don't think of these friends as "exes." They're just friends. And while I used to get a lot more jealous as an AP, this has still generally been my attitude and if I felt threatened I'd say that was my own problem and I'd deal with it. It's not naivete. The only person who I'm aware of ever cheating on me (in college) didn't stay friends with exes, but he did have incredibly poor boundaries and conflict resolution skills. I'm not pushing my opinions on you to change anything, just describing my different perspective. I'm well aware it makes some people uncomfortable, though I've only had one instance where it ended the situation after a few dates. That being said, if I'm dating online and there's a question about comfort with your partner being friends with exes that's answered no way! I won't talk to them because I don't want to stress anyone out dealing with that who takes issue, and some of these friendships go back 15 years and they're married. There's simply no threat, but a distrustful or uncomfortable partner may not believe that so it would always be a problem.
|
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jan 24, 2020 0:54:18 GMT
Oh yes, this is a big part of it. I have a lot of interests and some are rather niche. My ex from 15 years ago shares them, and his wife is super happy to let him go do those things with me since she has negative interest and it gets her out of going and having to put up with them LOL. |
|
