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Post by iz42 on Oct 23, 2020 5:13:28 GMT
I ended up talking with my ex this week. It felt like a good conversation overall, and I got some interesting feedback. He said that when I asked him to acknowledge my feelings during our relationship, it made him feel like a "human validation machine" and that he felt "used." I mostly understand what he means, but he also said that in moments of conflict it would have been different if I had asked him more general questions like "what do you think about what I just said?" Rather than "Do you get what I'm saying?" or "Does that sound weird to you?" This seems kind of like splitting hairs to me but it was an interesting piece of insight. I really wish we could have talked about these things when we were together. Maybe it's just with distance (and not being triggered) that we can both see it more clearly.
I have some trouble believing that if I had asked more open questions the dynamic with my ex would have been different, but I do think that if we’d been able to communicate like this it would have helped a lot with resolving conflict. Realistically though, if we were to try again, it probably wouldn't go well. He is semi-familiar with attachment theory because I have explained it to him, but he hasn't taken the initiative to understand his patterns and he's not in therapy. We can communicate well now because we're not in a relationship and his avoidance isn't being triggered.
On that note, he really wants to be friends. He says I am important to him and he wants me in his life. This is difficult for me with his brand new relationship. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet. Part of me wants to say no out of resentment, which is silly. I think I resent the fact that he finds new people to date and falls for them so quickly, and I haven't met anyone I've connected with. This is actually probably for the best because it means I move more slowly now instead of jumping into things like I did before I became more aware, and I've been spending a lot of time working through my attachment issues. I know I have to figure out what is best for me in this situation instead of making a decision out of spite. The confusing thing is that now that he is more stable, I can see him actually showing up for me as a friend. We get along very well outside of the attachment stuff - we connect well intellectually and I always have a great time talking to him. The irony is that the idea of him being supportive as a friend is what is painful because it makes me start to wonder if x or y were different maybe the relationship could have worked. I'll need to think about all of this.
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Post by iz42 on Oct 23, 2020 18:03:04 GMT
Just wanting to add one thing. I am going to use his perspective as I work on self validation. I can see that I have relied too much on others in the past. I can also see that in a sense, I *was* using him to make me feel better about myself. I can imagine that from his perspective that was frustrating. Having dated other anxiously attached people, I know how exhausting it can be. So I can understand better how my ex must have felt. I’m embarrassed that I acted that way. I know I was replaying an old pattern (I’m remembering how my mom was constantly trying to get my dad to understand how or why she was hurt by his behavior) but it is still somewhat humiliating to have shown such a lack of self reliance. I have been slowly building my self esteem by getting more financially stable, getting myself into a better living situation, and focusing on doing things I enjoy without apology rather than focusing on other people. Not apologizing for who I am in general feels important.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 23, 2020 19:53:42 GMT
iz42, I think you should feel really good about yourself that you heard his feedback and are taking it to heart (not just listened and then got defensive, really heard what he said). Learning to regulate emotionally and not look for external validation and processing is a huge challenge for those on the anxious side of insecure attachment, and I found recognizing and working through that to be a big step in earning secure. But even being able to hear him out and introspect about it shows you're getting there. I wouldn't re-engage for friendship yet, though. If you're not feeling ready, and you're focusing on your own work anyway, then his relationship will trigger you. It won't always trigger you forever or anything, but feeling ambivalence about it now is a good indication you're not ready yet. Which is totally fine. When I wasn't ready for my FA ex's new relationship (which started 2 months after our second breakup), plus it turned out she felt threatened by me anyway (without ever meeting me... she was another insecure partner, which is his type), then I said I wanted to respect the relationship being new and we could revisit friendship later. We would occasionally text and catch up, and he called several months later right after they'd broken up because he wanted to hang out again. At that point, I felt actually okay with us being over and him dating other people, so it was a better time to see how that went. (Spoiler alert: it turns out, he's a good friend to me when single and seeking attention, and he's a crap friend when in a relationship.) I also think what you said about the friendship and conversation working without triggering because you're no longer dating and the pressure is off is spot on. Less reason for nervous system activation, but it would go rinse and repeat if you started dating again, especially without him becoming more secure. I had the same experience, and when we got back together, he quickly shifted right back to pushing me away and things ended again soon after.
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Post by iz42 on Oct 24, 2020 0:51:45 GMT
iz42 , I think you should feel really good about yourself that you heard his feedback and are taking it to heart (not just listened and then got defensive, really heard what he said). Learning to regulate emotionally and not look for external validation and processing is a huge challenge for those on the anxious side of insecure attachment, and I found recognizing and working through that to be a big step in earning secure. But even being able to hear him out and introspect about it shows you're getting there. I wouldn't re-engage for friendship yet, though. If you're not feeling ready, and you're focusing on your own work anyway, then his relationship will trigger you. It won't always trigger you forever or anything, but feeling ambivalence about it now is a good indication you're not ready yet. Which is totally fine. When I wasn't ready for my FA ex's new relationship (which started 2 months after our second breakup), plus it turned out she felt threatened by me anyway (without ever meeting me... she was another insecure partner, which is his type), then I said I wanted to respect the relationship being new and we could revisit friendship later. We would occasionally text and catch up, and he called several months later right after they'd broken up because he wanted to hang out again. At that point, I felt actually okay with us being over and him dating other people, so it was a better time to see how that went. (Spoiler alert: it turns out, he's a good friend to me when single and seeking attention, and he's a crap friend when in a relationship.) I also think what you said about the friendship and conversation working without triggering because you're no longer dating and the pressure is off is spot on. Less reason for nervous system activation, but it would go rinse and repeat if you started dating again, especially without him becoming more secure. I had the same experience, and when we got back together, he quickly shifted right back to pushing me away and things ended again soon after. I appreciate the encouragement, alexandra. It does feel like progress. I think you're right about the friendship thing too. I am realizing that I have been AP all my life in the sense that I've always been attracted to unavailable guys and as a teenager and even in my 20s would spend years at a time pining away for someone, but somehow I've mostly avoided the avoidant/anxious dance in relationships. My first boyfriend in college was probably FA but I don't remember being triggered anxious by him and I managed to end that relationship pretty quickly. In my 20s and 30s I've often ended up with other APs (and the occasional secure), probably because I have always associated being AP with "emotional availability." My mom is AP, dad is likely avoidant, and I didn't know what a secure relationship looked like. I knew it was important to find emotionally available men but I had no idea how to do that. It sort of feels like having to reinvent the wheel to figure out what actual emotional availability means but it is sooo helpful to start to piece it together. One thing that is probably a blessing in disguise with my FA ex is that he has never wanted to get back together. He still reappears and wants to be friends and have emotional intimacy and sex but even in moments of weakness when I've fallen back in with him he has always been very firm on the point that we are not together as "boyfriend/girlfriend." His reasoning is that we've tried it and it didn't work out. It has been confusing when he basically wants to be together without calling it a relationship but it has saved us both the heartache of actually going through the full cycle. I'm not sure why he has set this boundary and sometimes I think it could have helped me move on more quickly to try again and see that things hadn't changed, but ultimately I know he's right that it's for the best that we're not together. |
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Post by iz42 on Oct 28, 2020 4:48:38 GMT
I've been trying to think more about my attachment style in relationships with other APs. There was the honeymoon period, which was always exciting. I believed that what I was seeing was emotional availability and I didn't take the time to figure out if that was actually the case. I stayed with one AP guy for several years. I had this story I told myself that "this is the best relationship I've ever been in." I repeated it partly to convince myself because I knew something was off. I don't think I ever deactivated, but I don't know what that feels like so it's hard to say. I did get quite depressed. It always felt like he wanted more from me than I could give, and that made me anxious because I felt like I was failing him. I also felt pretty consistently overwhelmed by his needs and I did a lot of second-guessing myself. I've been questioning how I ended up with other APs as someone who mostly leans AP myself but I guess this sort of makes sense.
I'm feeling frustrated right now because it seems like this process of becoming more secure is one step forward, two steps back. I thought I had mostly gotten over my FA ex but I started feeling triggered after we talked. I keep experiencing these new waves of grief and sadness. I want to reconnect somehow, even though I know friendship doesn't make sense right now. I guess it's good that I'm feeling the grief rather than pushing it aside. I think it's the finality of completely moving on that is most difficult. I know I have to leave him behind for good but letting go is still hard and scary. I'm trying to have compassion for myself given my challenges but I still feel frustrated. In the past when I have focused on myself I started to feel stronger over time and I'm sure that will happen again. It's just been tough delving into this stuff in therapy.
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Post by alexandra on Oct 28, 2020 4:54:49 GMT
I'm feeling frustrated right now because it seems like this process of becoming more secure is one step forward, two steps back. This is a totally accurate description of the feeling, and totally normal! Keep being kind to yourself about it, because you're on the right track even if you're going frontwards, backwards, diagonal, and sideways some days. You're actually going two steps forward and one step back, which eventually still gets you somewhere  |
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Post by iz42 on Oct 28, 2020 5:00:59 GMT
I'm feeling frustrated right now because it seems like this process of becoming more secure is one step forward, two steps back. This is a totally accurate description of the feeling, and totally normal! Keep being kind to yourself about it, because you're on the right track even if you're going frontwards, backwards, diagonal, and sideways some days. You're actually going two steps forward and one step back, which eventually still gets you somewhere Haha thank you. I hadn't really considered the possibility of going diagonal and sideways but I'm sure that's happening too. I'm going to try to remember that slow progress is still progress  |
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Post by annieb on Oct 28, 2020 14:11:53 GMT
Just something to consider. What is important... AP=needs, DA=boundaries, FA=vacillates between the two. Although Mary is correct that externalizing validation is not a great choice.....for APs, this really isn’t a choice...it was a matter of survival. If I don’t know if mom or dad will be happy with me or not...then I will try to anticipate things while trying to control how they act towards me by altering my behavior....and at the same time, trying to get the love I need through looking for validation that they still love me, am I enough etc. The issue is..as Mary pointed out....this behavior to someone who is DA or FA leaning avoidant will be exhausting which just perpetuates that old pattern and my needs never get met and my partner’s boundaries get triggered and he pulls away. It really does take 2 people who are reacting towards each other out of their attachments to create the dance. I am not saying 1 is right and 1 is wrong...but that both are wrong for each other. That's a helpful perspective. Thanks tnr9. I'm think I'm partly trying to picture how things would work in a healthy, secure dynamic. Obviously there is self-work that needs to be done outside of a relationship to get to a point where I, as someone with AP tendencies, have self-soothing techniques. I would want to make sure I'm not putting too much pressure on my partner to validate me and that I'm able to communicate my needs in an appropriate way. We all (even secure people) have needs and expectations in relationships, right? I guess I hope that if I were feeling frustrated with something that my partner was doing or wanted to explain why I was having a particular reaction, they would be receptive and try to understand. Then we could resolve the conflict and move on. In my previous relationship we never moved on--it was an endless loop of me trying to explain and him shutting down. I'm not trying to put all the blame on him or saying his behavior was bad, I'm just saying that I would not allow myself to be a situation where I was stuck in a cycle like this. Pay attention to how you feel in all your interactions, be it your mail man, or friends, or a potential SO. See how each interaction makes you feel. And you will start noticing a pattern. Interaction with some people will feel fairly neutral and will not affect your mood, and interaction with others can shake you. Pay attention whether that is coming from the inside or outside. Maybe even jot down these feelings in a journal. A healthy secure dynamic in my opinion and experience is almost oxytocin producing. When in a healthy dynamic you will feel good, positive, normal, centered, In control, happy. You will bond on a regular basis with those people and that bonding will produce more care and empathy for both of you. Picture a good relationship you have (when I’m describing this I’m picturing my work colleague, who I get along with really well); pay attention how a day with them makes you feel and jot down those emotions. For me my colleague lifts my mood, we have inside jokes, we smile at each other and get each other. We help and respect each other and it’s an easy day, when we are working together. We both can and will get frustrated with difficult tasks, but it doesn’t change how we interact or feel around each other. It also helps that we both curse:) If you feel weird interacting with a person, right away jot that down, too. Think about why you feel that way and what went down. Most often that person is disrespectful, entitled and not bonding with you. And most often that reason isn’t you, believe it or not. The reason is often their projections. So with this information you’ll know to distance yourself from this person, as you know it will otherwise negatively affect you. |
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Post by iz42 on Oct 28, 2020 23:22:54 GMT
Thank you annieb. I found that I could immediately understand what you were saying about feeling secure within the dynamic of a friendship. Also lol @ cursing. I'm going to start keeping a journal like this in the note app on my phone - what a great idea! I'm excited to try it. My daily interactions tend to be more virtual these days due to covid but they are still meaningful and it might even be easier to gauge my responses now when I don't have a ton of distractions. |
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Post by iz42 on Oct 30, 2020 6:50:59 GMT
I guess my own opinion about that is intermittent reinforcement dynamics in a relationship take on a life of their own. And its a stealthy thing..it happens because the relationship started out with consistency, and flipped at some point to a state of inconsistency. I honestly have seen no evidence that only "X" type is vulnerable to this. It seems secures, Anxiously attached FA's and AP's all become "trapped" in a way by intermittent reinforcement. Even animals do. It works on something limbic within us, related to oestracisation anxiety and then biological factors turn it into an addiction. Its too simple to suggest that a victim of intermittent reinforcement "just move on" and its also a kind of victim blaming. It takes a process to first recognise it for what it really is, then a process of dedicated detachment, and usually a period of space lasting months as neurotramsmiters and hormones rebalance. Its as complicated and difficult as beating a drug addiction that noone warns you about.. If we were taught all this in school and knew the dangers, then we could possibly make ourselves more accountable. But usually avoiding intermittent reinforcment relationships takes experience and pain. I know I wouldn't put myself through it again, knowing what it was now, and just how much it takes to get out of it. I don't blame my exes for it either. They are vulnerable people who experience intimacy as a threat. They were only trying to get comfortable, and when they couldn't, they used all kinds of distancing strategies and relationship sabotage to get to a place that felt safe. I feel sad, if anything, that they are people who can't experience and embrace love in the way I can, and I know they feel pain because of it. I wonder what it would look like if we tried to educate young people about insecure attachment and intermittent reinforcement. The interesting thing is that I was warned by my mom as a young teenager to stay away from relationships where I was getting hot/cold or push/pull messages. My mom worked in the mental health field at the time. I did take her advice to heart, but the problem was that she didn't tell me why I should be wary or why I might feel pulled or attracted to these kinds of situations and what I could do about it. I think it probably would have taken actual therapy to figure that out at a younger age. I do think my mom's warning could be part of why I didn't end up in a LTR with an avoidant until my 30s though. By that point I had been insecure in relationships for so long that I felt worn down and had sort of resigned myself to putting up with whatever came my way. I also met the FA ex at a particularly vulnerable and transitional period in my life. I've been remembering things he told me that now I'm just completely horrified by. For instance, he had been with his previous ex for about 5 years on and off and it was very tumultuous (definitely a pattern, as he and I dated on and off for about 5 years too). At first he complained a lot about her being mean and aggressive. Later he explained that they went to couples therapy because he had cheated on her and while he felt bad and didn't want to be unfaithful anymore, he couldn't seem to stop flirting with other women. The therapy didn't work because he found the female couples therapist very attractive and he was distracted and unable to internalize what she said  It's really helpful to see that I was actively in denial hearing stuff like this and thinking that I could make things work. UGH! |
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Post by iz42 on Dec 27, 2020 0:06:44 GMT
I wouldn't re-engage for friendship yet, though. If you're not feeling ready, and you're focusing on your own work anyway, then his relationship will trigger you. It won't always trigger you forever or anything, but feeling ambivalence about it now is a good indication you're not ready yet.) Just revisiting this thread because two months later I’m finally putting hard boundaries back in place with my ex. I told him that I need space and I’ve asked him not to contact me under any circumstances. I said that it will likely be a year or more before I’m ready to consider friendship. I also took him off my social media. I came to this point because ... surprise surprise... having any contact was totally triggering me. You were absolutely right alexandra. He was wanting to talk on a regular basis and he was being so warm and open with me. I found it nice at first but then it was painful and confusing knowing that he was in the middle of a honeymoon phase with someone else. I came across a social media post he made for the holidays with pictures of all the thoughtful gifts she’d given him. I’d already made the decision to break ties before the new year but that was the last straw. They’ve known each other for 3 months and been in a relationship for 2 months and he was getting comments from friends and family saying “she’s perfect” and “she’s the one” because of how happy they looked together and the gifts she’d given, etc. They are moving very fast. I know that I wouldn’t want to be in her place because he has shown he is basically unable to be a consistent and emotionally available partner over the long term, but it still hurts. I just can’t engage with him at all. I’m sad and exhausted but relieved. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 27, 2020 2:13:56 GMT
iz42 I'm sorry it's been difficult. You're doing the right thing, and coming at no contact from a place of relieved exhaustion rather than triggered is actually a good thing. You saw it through, paid attention to how seeing it through made you feel, and you're accepting where you're at and doing what you need to do for yourself now. Since I've been through this too, I'm speaking from the future! LOL. And it will get better. You will be able to talk to him again eventually without it being triggering. At that point, when you're ready, you'll just need to decide if you even want to have a friendship. I have open communication with my FA exes but we don't talk frequently because I don't really have that much to say to them any more. We're all in different romantic relationships, and the one who brought me to this board I've found this year that my values no longer align with. The other FA ex before him has values closer to mine but he's struggling in his long-term relationship and neither of us have any desire for me to have a presence that makes his situation more complicated. Us communicating shouldn't make anything more complicated of course, because on my end we dated 7 years ago and I'm long over the romantic part, but he and his partner both have insecure attachment styles, and I remember his behaviors that triggered me and increased my insecurity (behaviors he still has with her)... so I can understand if she's uncomfortable with us being closer friends and I respect that. Which means it's nothing more than occasional text check ins -- hey, it's been a few months, how are you and your family doing coping with the pandemic, hope you're well -- type stuff, sometimes initiated by him and sometimes by me. And I'm actually fine with that, because my being secure and him not being secure means we don't connect as well anyway (the way he adults now often strikes me as immature). I'm far less emotionally exhausted with limited contact with those exes, so it seems to have all worked out for the best... especially in current times when there's plenty else to be emotionally exhausted about in the US.
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Post by iz42 on Dec 27, 2020 3:30:24 GMT
alexandra Wow, it’s really helpful to have a voice from the future I can see how with time I will gain perspective and perhaps have more distant contact with him. I do feel confident that cutting off all communication is the right decision. I wanted to meet up and have a brief conversation in person about why I need to do this (safely - outside) but now he is refusing see me if we are saying goodbye. Maybe it’s really too emotionally difficult for him, but I also wonder if saying no is an attempt to regain control. Like I’m setting a boundary so he won’t give me the satisfaction of a goodbye. Obviously I respect his decision, but whatever the case it feels like our same old patterns playing out. This is certainly not what I want in a relationship.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 27, 2020 3:39:56 GMT
iz42 You're still an attachment figure even though you're an ex (or he wouldn't have wanted to stay close friends), and it's not easy to lose one, so it may be both. The only way I could get my long-term FA ex to let me go into no contact gracefully and mostly stick with and respect my boundary was by explaining that it was the nicest thing he could do for me. Because, and this goes for your FA ex too, they still have a fear of abandonment, which you setting a boundary triggers. I didn't have to manage his triggering when I cut off contact for almost a year (and arguably I shouldn't have since it's co-dependent to do), but since I was AP and it was so difficult for me to set that boundary and not rescind in the first place even though it was the right decision, I tried anyway to depersonalize it so he was less inclined to argue with me. And that's all I could come up with to say that seemed to make him back off and respect it. I'm glad you recognize this isn't what you want. Hopefully 2021 gets better in this regard And in many others as well 
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Post by iz42 on Dec 27, 2020 3:49:03 GMT
Hopefully 2021 gets better in this regard And in many others as well Cheers to that!!!! 🥳 Also what is most clear to me at this point is the extent to which our dynamic always felt like a power struggle. I am so ready to walk away from that and work on finding a relationship where I’m not constantly fighting keep my power or to avoid giving it away. I can see how there would be no place for that in a secure dynamic. |
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