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Post by lilyg on Jun 7, 2021 13:28:16 GMT
Hi all 😊 some of you might remember me. I am securely attached, with anxious tendencies with my DA partner, and had been with him for 3.5 years. At first our relationship was very rocky as I was more anxious and he was very avoidant, but we finally managed to work it out. We have been living together for two years and adopted a doggy, very serious about each other.
I am secure but sometimes I mess up badly, and he has been amazingly undestanding and helpful. I get him now and can usually manage conflicts with him better than before.
The thing is that, while I feel like I can talk to him about everything that I feel and he understands and supports me, whenever I get mad or disappointed with him and want to talk it out he gets overwhelmed and defensive, to the point of dismissing my feelings in a very hurtful way for days. I know usually how to treat his anger, give him space, and stand my ground, but it is getting to me. Him not apologising and making me suffer for days at a time is taking a huge toll on me.
I am very grateful of his support and I know he loves me, but I do want a relationship where I can talk about how I feel without being judged or dismissed. I think I am reasonable and while I am able to soothe myself and don't let his moods affect me in other parts of my life, I am at a point of feeling frankly dissappointed, sad and disrespected, but I am not able to communicate this, as he blames me for nagging him and creating drama.
Has someone been throught this? Is this workable? am I crazy? I feel like this may be the hill I'm willing to die on. It saddens me a lot but I feel love should feel kinder. I am lately feeling like I can't do anything right and that everything is my problem. I know I am not perfect st all, but whenever I see I hurt my partner, I start doing everything in my power to apologise and work on myself. I am very depressed, I really did think he is the love of my life. And while I understand deactivating, I feel like he sometimes is very unkind.
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Post by alexandra on Jun 7, 2021 14:19:34 GMT
I know a couple who were together ten years, one mostly secure with AP tendencies with avoidant partners and one avoidant. Arguably, the avoidant was working on attachment and other issues independently even harder than the secure-leaning-AP, who was also aware of all the theory. In their last years together, the avoidant's shutdown around emotional stuff (which was always somewhat of an issue though with therapy improved) started to really bother the spouse, who did not feel as connected or intimate as a result. But a big part of what was actually happening was they were outgrowing each other in a way, and their long-term life plans were growing apart too. They'd each started wanting different lifestyle things that weren't compatible. So the tenuous attachment balance they'd found through open communication about it worked when they were on the same page about everything else, but once other parts started changing it got magnified and they amicably decided to go their separate ways. They recognized it was time to split due to divergent life stages and not due to the attachment issues that they both continue their own work on even now.
This is just one example, and one example isn't enough to make any definitive statements about. But I wanted to point out that your feelings about whether the attachment-related dynamic are legitimate and him lashing out when defensive can certainly erode feelings of connection and compatibility over time. Equally important, there may be non-attachment-related components to consider as well.
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Post by anne12 on Jun 7, 2021 14:57:45 GMT
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Post by lilyg on Jun 7, 2021 16:00:36 GMT
I know a couple who were together ten years, one mostly secure with AP tendencies with avoidant partners and one avoidant. Arguably, the avoidant was working on attachment and other issues independently even harder than the secure-leaning-AP, who was also aware of all the theory. In their last years together, the avoidant's shutdown around emotional stuff (which was always somewhat of an issue though with therapy improved) started to really bother the spouse, who did not feel as connected or intimate as a result. But a big part of what was actually happening was they were outgrowing each other in a way, and their long-term life plans were growing apart too. They'd each started wanting different lifestyle things that weren't compatible. So the tenuous attachment balance they'd found through open communication about it worked when they were on the same page about everything else, but once other parts started changing it got magnified and they amicably decided to go their separate ways. They recognized it was time to split due to divergent life stages and not due to the attachment issues that they both continue their own work on even now. This is just one example, and one example isn't enough to make any definitive statements about. But I wanted to point out that your feelings about whether the attachment-related dynamic are legitimate and him lashing out when defensive can certainly erode feelings of connection and compatibility over time. Equally important, there may be non-attachment-related components to consider as well. Hi Alexandra, your input is always very interesting. I can only imagine how attachment issues are magnified by chances un the partnership... I do see se are very compatible in everything else. I guess I feel like things tend to get more volatile than they should sometimes. Halmark of attachment style fights. I tend to give space and talk about it, but sometimes I get really hurt if a boundary I have has been breached. The problem is that while my partner has gotten better at handling conflict and apologising, he's not on therapy or working on his emotions. We can sometimes work together towards a compromise but sometimes I just forget about it and carry on. I tend to not make grudges. The thing is that I feel that this is taking a toll on how I feel in the relationship whenever a conflict of interests arises. |
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Post by lilyg on Jun 7, 2021 16:07:28 GMT
Hi Lilyg I'm sorry to hear about what you are writing. I just saw that you liked a post in the hsp thread. Are you hsp ? Can you give an example of what he says and what you say ? Do you talk about your sensations that it gives you in the body when you argue/ when he dismisses you ? (I have noticed that people can't "blame" me for things I am noticing in my body...) What do you do when you are getting mad and angry with him ? Do you keep talking or are you able to calm down and regulate before you say more things to him ? Have you read some of these posts ? jebkinnisonforum.com/post/31865/jebkinnisonforum.com/post/32134/jebkinnisonforum.com/post/30609/jebkinnisonforum.com/post/31532/Hi Anne! Always a pleasure to talk with you😊 I tend to be more emotional than rational in how I perceive the Word (I am an assertive ENFP, if it helps a bit), but I am often a calm person. I do feel like I relate to some things in your post and I have to work on my self-esteem. I think I have a somewhat healthy self-perception, but I can recognise I could have more ego. I Will read everything, thank you ☺️ your posts always help. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 16:09:55 GMT
Hi lilyg, I can really relate! I am dismissive but quite cognizant of my patterns in many ways. I am also HSP, newly identified but affected all my life. I am in relationship almost two years total with a man who is masculine, some secure, some anxious, maybe some avoidant. I think our dynamic is somewhat anxious/avoidant it is a mixed bag. Personality type (Enneagram) is strikingly on point and he is extroverted, I am introverted. So. I can't say that the issue is related to only attachment dynamics, other than how we respond to it! This has been a painful issue for me as well, and it has caused me to come almost to the point of breaking, recently. I wrote about it non-specifically in the support area for Dismissives. The Progress thread. An example of when my feelings were discounted- this is just one example... maybe I will give a couple. When I come to visit him , sometimes on the way I am receiving phone calls and texts for business when I am driving. So, when I arrive to him I feel a focused need to respond to my business contacts, because I have a schedule that keeps me on my toes and if I do not respond quickly I may miss the response at all. So he has been waiting for me, but when I arrive I am laser focused on wrapping up those communications. So, I cannot do two things at once, I feel pressured, and I wave him off until I am finished with what I have to do. This may seem rude, but it is not intended that way. I'm just a minute or two I will put away my phone and go to him for hugs and kisses. I do not want to do that first, because every thing that comes between me and my needed response to the calls increases the chances I will not tie up loose ends. He has become annoyed, hurt, protest-y in those situations. He's gotten that little bit of attitude wanting to be first, wanting to be reciprocated in his happiness to see me. I get where he is coming from to a point. But we have gotten in arguments because I feel he is pressuring me to do more than I can, and that if he cared for me he would respect what I have to take care of, knowing that I CAME TO SEE HIM BECAUSE HE IS A PRIORITY. So I'm showing up, I'm investing time, and I am happy to see him! But I have to take care of something first. This is his need stemming from anxious traits I think. It is somewhat similar when I leave. I have a schedule and I list keep it and I can't longer iver good bye. Sometimes I am in a rush. In these instances he has developed the attitude that I am not thoughtful, or that I am treating him in a way he would not treat me. (Wrong! He has had to do the same and it does not bother me at all.). This is the blaming type of behavior of his type. But we all do things like blame, dont we? We all become self centered and lack some understanding and fairness when we become triggered or upset - we can become myopic. When I have tried to explain my self and my needs and my intention toward him, sometimes it has fallen on deaf ears and it gets added to the list of things he is dissatisfied about. Not that he is dissatisfied all the time! We have a lot of good. But there is a list of marks against me, And i have a list of marks against hm  Insecure people do that a lot. But growth can be had. Something I realized is that I have had areas where I am dismissing my own needs, and engaging in self-critical, blaming self talk. See how that works? He was the bad guy being unkind to me, but deep down, I was doing it to myself also. It took bottoming out with that and getting really active in my self care, self love and self compassion, to become proactive about my needs. In the discussion that I wrote about in the other thread, I told him... I stand behind my efforts to bring health and balance to this relationship. I am not perfect but I am humble and I am continuously making effort, and making you aware of this effort. Your response to your own deficiencies has been... deficient. Instead, I feel that I have been scapegoated and blamed for difficultly we have, and my self esteem has taken a hit. I don't want to feel less important than you, as though my feelings are less valid, but that is how I feel when you speak to me the way you do. If there is a good guy and a bad guy here, we are not compatible. If you see me as someone laying pain and burden upon you, ans you cannot find your own contribution to the dynamic, we are not compatible. If you see yourself as less responsible for creating harmony , we are not compatible. I want this to work but we have got to look at what we really need individually, and determine if we are compatible. It turns out, he did not know how much painI was in, because his defenses only focused on his own pain. Also, I was not honoring my own needs and feelings in ways that were unrelated to him, and scapegoating him for my unmet, invoiced needs. The real needs- the vulnerable ones. Needs for grace and compassion- not just space and to do things my way. I need tolerance and acceptance and softness toward my imperfections. Seeing this clearly, my own need for these things, I am better able to see they are his needs as well. Kindness grows on both sides with this awareness. Maybe this will be helpful, maybe not. But do not abandon yourself here. Maybe you need to stand up for yourself in ways you haven't, not just with him but in other areas as well. Just putting that out there because it has been a thing for me! |
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Post by lilyg on Jun 7, 2021 16:23:52 GMT
Hi Lilyg I'm sorry to hear about what you are writing. I just saw that you liked a post in the hsp thread. Are you hsp ? Can you give an example of what he says and what you say ? Do you talk about your sensations that it gives you in the body when you argue/ when he dismisses you ? (I have noticed that people can't "blame" me for things I am noticing in my body...) What do you do when you are getting mad and angry with him ? Do you keep talking or are you able to calm down and regulate before you say more things to him ? Have you read some of these posts ? jebkinnisonforum.com/post/31865/jebkinnisonforum.com/post/32134/jebkinnisonforum.com/post/30609/jebkinnisonforum.com/post/31532/About explaining my experience to him: Last night I tried to explain how I felt when I came home. He got mad because I got weird with him because he did something that disappointed me. It was nothing that serious, but I had to go to the bathroom and take the dog out and I wanted to be calm and have time to explain how I felt. But he pressured me to talk and while I tried my best to explain, the trigger had already been pushed, as I was weird with him about something he didn't feel was alright. At night while we were laying on bed I asked if he could hold my hand for a bit or hug me and he asked me why and what was I feeling: I told him I felt bad and alone. He told me I was codependant. So yeah, he was very dismissive and critical. I have apologised for my part on the fight and left him alone, as he told me he felt overwhelmed. I know it's not that much and it's a stupid fight but it is hard for me to...just go from having what I think is a secure bond to just doing these things yet again. How someone can love me and be dismissive when he hurts me. How I am doing everything in my power to heal myself to be a better partner and him telling me this is how he is and to deal with it. |
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Post by lilyg on Jun 7, 2021 16:31:21 GMT
Hi lilyg , I can really relate! I am dismissive but quite cognizant of my patterns in many ways. I am also HSP, newly identified but affected all my life. I am in relationship almost two years total with a man who is masculine, some secure, some anxious, maybe some avoidant. I think our dynamic is somewhat anxious/avoidant it is a mixed bag. Personality type (Enneagram) is strikingly on point and he is extroverted, I am introverted. So. I can't say that the issue is related to only attachment dynamics, other than how we respond to it! This has been a painful issue for me as well, and it has caused me to come almost to the point of breaking, recently. I wrote about it non-specifically in the support area for Dismissives. The Progress thread. An example of when my feelings were discounted- this is just one example... maybe I will give a couple. When I come to visit him , sometimes on the way I am receiving phone calls and texts for business when I am driving. So, when I arrive to him I feel a focused need to respond to my business contacts, because I have a schedule that keeps me on my toes and if I do not respond quickly I may miss the response at all. So he has been waiting for me, but when I arrive I am laser focused on wrapping up those communications. So, I cannot do two things at once, I feel pressured, and I wave him off until I am finished with what I have to do. This may seem rude, but it is not intended that way. I'm just a minute or two I will put away my phone and go to him for hugs and kisses. I do not want to do that first, because every thing that comes between me and my needed response to the calls increases the chances I will not tie up loose ends. He has become annoyed, hurt, protest-y in those situations. He's gotten that little bit of attitude wanting to be first, wanting to be reciprocated in his happiness to see me. I get where he is coming from to a point. But we have gotten in arguments because I feel he is pressuring me to do more than I can, and that if he cared for me he would respect what I have to take care of, knowing that I CAME TO SEE HIM BECAUSE HE IS A PRIORITY. So I'm showing up, I'm investing time, and I am happy to see him! But I have to take care of something first. This is his need stemming from anxious traits I think. It is somewhat similar when I leave. I have a schedule and I list keep it and I can't longer iver good bye. Sometimes I am in a rush. In these instances he has developed the attitude that I am not thoughtful, or that I am treating him in a way he would not treat me. (Wrong! He has had to do the same and it does not bother me at all.). This is the blaming type of behavior of his type. But we all do things like blame, dont we? We all become self centered and lack some understanding and fairness when we become triggered or upset - we can become myopic. When I have tried to explain my self and my needs and my intention toward him, sometimes it has fallen on deaf ears and it gets added to the list of things he is dissatisfied about. Not that he is dissatisfied all the time! We have a lot of good. But there is a list of marks against me, And i have a list of marks against hm Insecure people do that a lot. But growth can be had. Something I realized is that I have had areas where I am dismissing my own needs, and engaging in self-critical, blaming self talk. See how that works? He was the bad guy being unkind to me, but deep down, I was doing it to myself also. It took bottoming out with that and getting really active in my self care, self love and self compassion, to become proactive about my needs. In the discussion that I wrote about in the other thread, I told him... I stand behind my efforts to bring health and balance to this relationship. I am not perfect but I am humble and I am continuously making effort, and making you aware of this effort. Your response to your own deficiencies has been... deficient. Instead, I feel that I have been scapegoated and blamed for difficultly we have, and my self esteem has taken a hit. I don't want to feel less important than you, as though my feelings are less valid, but that is how I feel when you speak to me the way you do. If there is a good guy and a bad guy here, we are not compatible. If you see me as someone laying pain and burden upon you, ans you cannot find your own contribution to the dynamic, we are not compatible. If you see yourself as less responsible for creating harmony , we are not compatible. I want this to work but we have got to look at what we really need individually, and determine if we are compatible. It turns out, he did not know how much painI was in, because his defenses only focused on his own pain. Also, I was not honoring my own needs and feelings in ways that were unrelated to him, and scapegoating him for my unmet, invoiced needs. The real needs- the vulnerable ones. Needs for grace and compassion- not just space and to do things my way. I need tolerance and acceptance and softness toward my imperfections. Seeing this clearly, my own need for these things, I am better able to see they are his needs as well. Kindness grows on both sides with this awareness. Maybe this will be helpful, maybe not. But do not abandon yourself here. Maybe you need to stand up for yourself in ways you haven't, not just with him but in other areas as well. Just putting that out there because it has been a thing for me! Hi, thank you so much for your post and your vulnerability, I feel like you... totally. The thing about having to answer work related messages and him getting angry. To my self-esteem taking a hit. That's why I think this is a dealbreaker. I feel really small... the way he has treated me. I wish he could aknowledge it. Now he has bought a pizza and is asking me if I want some. I know it's his way of patching up but I really need him to address this. I know I can forgive and let it go but I need my feelings to be taken into account. He told me he's the way he is and that's it. It just hurts too much how he's willing to throw everything away or to hurt me before being more humble. I understand his needs, I really do, but... I sometimes have to put myself first. I need space to feel my own self grow. I feel he helps me do that in other things but when it comes to discussing things about me and him... it is very difficult. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 16:39:53 GMT
lilyg you are in a very tough spot! Of course we don't know the outcome, and you don't.... I was very sure at times that I was over this and that the relationship needed to end but that was the deactivation and despair which is typical - I have not had a lot of experiences of growth in romantic relationship. I would never encourage you to continue something you know is toxic! And, I also would encourage you to see if there is any place that your communication and self love (advocacy ) can improve. It takes time to really see what is going on, clearly. But in the meantime It's good you are gainin support. My only advice is make sure you are really really prioritizing your care. In every way. How you eat, how you sleep, how you exercise, how you view yourself as worthy of that care from all around. This has helped me to be bold and grow more secure in critical areas. It is a long process, I am sorry you are looking at the possibility of ending something you have invested much into. Take time to rest from it if at all possible? And of course keep posting here! It's helped me a lot.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 16:43:34 GMT
Oh, I just read that he called you codependent. He does sound critical- and that is what I was referring to in my other thread when I referenced where he goes with his words.... destructive. Critical. And honestly, wrong when it comes to what's going on inside me!
Just empathizing. Now, in my situation, his eyes were really opened by my own candor, courage, and also vulnerability. He is not primarily avoidant, but has shown capacity to grow and look for constructive solutions (just hadn't followed through in a commutes way to those. Because as an avoidant I am an easy scapegoat haha!)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 16:54:04 GMT
And important to add... I no longer feel small .After our communication I feel beautiful and strong, but soft, not hard. I feel feminine and also, I feel cared for by both of us. It was a big turning point but time will show its further direction. No matter what the future holds it was a big win for my emotional health. We will see what he and I can build together.
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Post by anne12 on Jun 7, 2021 17:30:07 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 17:39:09 GMT
You can ask "what do you mean when you say codependent" ? "It hurts me when you say that I am codependent and I would like you to stop saying this ..." "Yeah I might be codependent, but I still need a hug. Will you hold me?" ect.... jebkinnisonforum.com/post/38963/ - how to deal with passive aggressive people ect Yes!!! There were specific things my SO would say and I pointed out the words he used and that they felt demeaning, belittling. There were some ways he minimized my concerns and I told him, that I want each of us to have our concerns addressed equally. Like partners. I asked him if he can be generous with me in this way. I know he can. I also know he feels inadequate when he gets it wrong, he feels hurt when he is trying to take good care of me in his own way but I am not happy. It is his own insecurity popping up. What I have learned, is it is very very important for a man to be able to make the woman he loves feel happy. I see that my SO feels shame and defensive when he misses the mark. It is his own wound being triggered. And sometimes men simply do not understand women and vice versa. There is room for some grace all the way around. What was it you said in that message to me anne12? It made a big impact on me and got me thinking of things from a more gracious and thankful point of view... I might quote you here later |
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Post by lilyg on Jun 7, 2021 18:01:39 GMT
Thank you anne12. I did ask him why would he said that. He said that it was because I wanted a hug and felt alone after just a fight. I told him today he hurted me yesterday when he told me that and he said: 'Oh well you hurt me too when you told me you felt alone. So you can say hurtful things and I can't?'. I don't think is the same at all... I was talking about a feeling, not defining him. But well... I apologised and told him I was talking about how I felt and I felt sorry for hurting him. You are always very insightful, whenever I feel like stressing out I remember your breathing excercises  @introvert, this: I also know he feels inadequate when he gets it wrong, he feels hurt when he is trying to take good care of me in his own way but I am not happy. It is his own insecurity popping up. I know he feels hurt because of that, because I told him I was not happy with the relationship in this specific moment. And he sadly said well I thought I get you but I guess I don't. I understand where are you coming from, I've talked with him about this, and I know he likes to take care of me. I am very appreciative of everything he does for me and I am very vocal about it, because I know it makes us bond. But as you said... I feel like when something this important is at stake, I have to be candid. I just... I feel very vurnerable. The way he has treated me makes me feel like I should be ashamed of my feelings. It is very sad because we had been celebrating his birthday and he was so happy telling me it was the best birthday of his life. I am so sorry he's feeling angry and dissappointed himself, and I've apologised and gave him space and reafirmed his feelings, but I really need him to address that my feelings have also been hurt and that there's a communication problem we have to work on, not that I'm a crazy, nagging person. He has gotten better at understanding and being more present, but whenever he feels like he has been wronged, it's like all this work and logic goes out of the window. He just offered me pizza again. I guess he is trying for us to move on but I really want to talk about this. I am deeply hurt. I just don't know how to do it without him getting defensive. Maybe I should write a letter? It seems lame and a bit overbearing hehe. Anyway, @introvert, I am really happy that he has understood you you seem like a really sweet person. I am taking care of myself, thank you for your kindness. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 22:29:22 GMT
lilyg I agree that poor communication is very difficult to deal with. My SO recognized himself that his communication is poor, and it is one of the things he is specifically studying and working on during our break. I have some area where I need to improve my communication as well. Also I think that the threads anne12 has posted about anger patterns are crucial information. My SO is more of an aggressive anger pattern. My anger pattern is more passive aggressive. That is gross to have to admit but I cannot excuse my poor skills and hope to have a good relationship. I didn't even recognize some ways that I am passive aggressive! That is a kicker. So while it's true that he acknowledges that he has a critical shortage in the communication department, I am committed to not turning the tables and placing all the blame on him jist because I'm glad he's finally stepping up to this. And I'm not saying you are doing that at all! Really just pointing out the importance of recognizing the different ways anger comes out and how to improve both how we exhibit anger and how we respond to someone else's. Internalizing his behavior when he was angry was painful. It's been a process to learn how to handle these issues between us constructively with a growth mindset, for both of us. I hope that you find relief no matter how it comes to you- this is hard stuff.
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