|
Post by dullboat123 on Jun 14, 2021 4:58:17 GMT
I still think you are mixing avoidant with narcissists. I agree that narcissists are abusive...but that comes from a personality disorder, not an attachment wound. No. How Avoidants operate is abusive. One prime example is that avoidants tend to leave physically or mentally and have the tendency to be passive aggressive whenever there is a disagreement or issue in a relationship. Next comes the stonewalling. Stonewalling is classified as domestic abuse. Another one that I have experienced myself is the hyper focusing on every little flaw of their partners and then pick the partner apart. That verbal assault is classified as domestic abuse too. What about the string along? Doesn't it mean they're abusing the goodwill of others? Yes all of the above can be argued that the avoidant did not deliberately or consciously do and deserves some slack. I think there must be a certain level of responsibility here whereby one is still liable for damages even if you didn't deliberately back into someone's car. Whenever there is damage done, someone is responsible. Same goes for damaging someone's mental state.
|
|
|
Post by krolle on Jun 14, 2021 5:24:09 GMT
I agree that your ex is definitely insecure but probably FA not DA, and that the main takeaway here is the very difficult lesson you already learned: you can't date potential or hope for someone to make big changes. That's what dating is about, taking enough time to observe someone's pattern of behaviors and levels of consistency and showing up. When dating someone with an insecure attachment style, those insecurities may not obviously pop up for 1 - 2 years, though after you go through the experience you can usually identify red flags much earlier than that. If you don't have lots of insecure dynamics in your family and you've never dated someone with an insecure attachment style before, it can be very puzzling and take a long time to see and figure out because it's such a different frame of reference. Thought patterns and nervous system conditioning are different between insecure and secure attachers, and expecting their behaviors, motivations, and responses to be like your own if you have a different style doesn't work. That doesn't mean insecure attachers didn't try their best, but it may mean their capacity and definition of "best" is quite different from yours and totally incompatible. Though these issues are often not conscious and rarely intentional if you're not dealing with a personality disorder or other comorbid mental issues. If those more severe issues aren't present, it still doesn't make it a good match or healthy, functional relationship, though. I've been in similar situations to yours, with multiple FA partners, and I personally overstayed and wasted my own time for years multiple times because I was AP. A big reason I was able to finally overcome that my own attachment style issues was because I want to have kids and am also pushing it on being out of time, and because I'd already spent so many years banging my head against the relationship wall that I'd finally figured out how to identify the real problems and deeply wanted to change and stop being in so much pain ( I kept choosing avoidant partners who couldn't follow through on serious relationships, and the reasons I made those decisions were complicated and often ignorant but still wholly on me). It took me a couple years to work out my issues once I focused on it, and AP is slightly less complex to work out than FA because I need to heal the anxious side, not both the anxious and avoidant side. So him being in his mid 40s with a few months of therapy under his belt and no where near taking ownership of his trauma and growing past it into an emotionally mature adult is unfortunately not unusual in a circumstance like this, isn't your fault, and has little to do with you. You didn't cause it, and you gave him benefit of the doubt on his follow through because you didn't know these vastly different mindsets exist. Again, they're complicated defense systems that let children survive trauma (in this, case, mostly likely so he could stay attached to his mom when still a defenseless kid) that can stunt emotional processing and don't serve adult relationships well. Humans naturally grow into them but not out of them, and it takes conscious and very difficult work that he doesn't sound ready to do. I empathize about fears around missing a limited window to have children, and I'm guessing there's a lot of anger at both him and yourself around that if it's something you wanted. If so, definitely be kind to yourself in that space and make sure you take some time to process and mourn. And don't let getting caught up in what he did detract from doing that. I think it's really important for people to learn about attachment theory and dynamics between styles, but if the focus stays on him it can also be a way to avoid feeling all that and figuring out a new direction for yourself. I also agree with the advice to block him and keep him out of your life going forward. FA is the come-here-too-close-go-away-too-far-come-back style, due to chaotic and sometimes scary households growing up. As someone with an AP style, I stayed in those "downgraded" situations with my FA exes who wanted to stay best friends but no physical intimacy and no labeled commitment after we broke up. Of course this was confusing, it was like these specific exes tried to split apart emotional intimacy from physical intimacy and compartmentalize them, and what men use you for emotional intimacy but not physical?? I thought for a long time it was unresolved feelings of love and they'd come around, but no. It's part of the predictable pattern and you can indeed stay in limbo indefinitely -- or until you establish strong, healthy boundaries and remove yourself from the roller coaster merry-go-round. And you stick to them strictly, because insecure attachers have a lot of issues with boundaries and you can't put the onus on the other person to act in a way to meet your needs on that. Especially an unaware FA (also called disorganized attachment because they have no organized strategy for getting their own needs met, so forget about trying to meet the needs of another person if they can't handle their own!). I'm sorry you're going through this. It's going to be a bumpy road to get over it, but you're not alone in your experience. Alexandra- your response really resonated with me! thank you for sharing. my experience feels so similar to yours. I was LOLing about what you said about what man wants to use you for emotional intimacy but not sex. I think he definitely compartmentalizes sex- its either casual flings w sex or a real relationship with none. Anyway, at first I was fantasizing about him coming back to me, but changed. haha. That's like wishing for a different person basically. To your point, he is mid 40s and not ready to take ownership of his trauma. Also, when you said insecurities may not pop up for 1-2 years, yes! the first year was pretty good- and then Covid hit in our second year, so it was a huge distraction from our issues. I am trying to take that all into consideration, and framing it in my head as, well, at least I had a bud to hang out with during lock down. And at least I am gaining huge insight that can help my future relationships. Thank you again! I'm an FA male. And I have done this quiet a lot in the past. The whole compartmentalizing sex thing. In fact I have lost quiet a few previous partners in the early stages of dating because they thought I was gay. For me it's mostly a trust issue as Alexandra rightly pointed out. (She's quiet the wise lady in my experience, possibly my favorite poster on the forum if you'll indulge me a moment of brown nosing). My experience is that sex has been used as a covert contract often by the women in my life more often than not, so I'm very wary of it. Whereas I can meet my needs for connection by being emotionally intimate with someone, without it being used as leverage to control me. Or at least much less likely to. So I'm usually the guy that is described as being a great listener, or always there for her when she needs me...but confusing why I won't put out, or stop putting out when there's a trust issue.
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jun 14, 2021 13:14:37 GMT
For me it's mostly a trust issue as Alexandra rightly pointed out. (She's quiet the wise lady in my experience, possibly my favorite poster on the forum if you'll indulge me a moment of brown nosing). LOL, thank you. Wisdom comes from decades of experience making every mistake, so just hoping to make more use out of it by helping other people save some time and skip some pain if I can!
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Jun 14, 2021 13:43:30 GMT
Alexandra- your response really resonated with me! thank you for sharing. my experience feels so similar to yours. I was LOLing about what you said about what man wants to use you for emotional intimacy but not sex. I think he definitely compartmentalizes sex- its either casual flings w sex or a real relationship with none. Anyway, at first I was fantasizing about him coming back to me, but changed. haha. That's like wishing for a different person basically. To your point, he is mid 40s and not ready to take ownership of his trauma. Also, when you said insecurities may not pop up for 1-2 years, yes! the first year was pretty good- and then Covid hit in our second year, so it was a huge distraction from our issues. I am trying to take that all into consideration, and framing it in my head as, well, at least I had a bud to hang out with during lock down. And at least I am gaining huge insight that can help my future relationships. Thank you again! I'm an FA male. And I have done this quiet a lot in the past. The whole compartmentalizing sex thing. In fact I have lost quiet a few previous partners in the early stages of dating because they thought I was gay. For me it's mostly a trust issue as Alexandra rightly pointed out. (She's quiet the wise lady in my experience, possibly my favorite poster on the forum if you'll indulge me a moment of brown nosing). My experience is that sex has been used as a covert contract often by the women in my life more often than not, so I'm very wary of it. Whereas I can meet my needs for connection by being emotionally intimate with someone, without it being used as leverage to control me. Or at least much less likely to. So I'm usually the guy that is described as being a great listener, or always there for her when she needs me...but confusing why I won't put out, or stop putting out when there's a trust issue. That is sooooo interesting. I had the opposite experience with B.....he was after the physical part....kept pushing the boundaries when we first started seeing each other. In fact, there were times it felt like a flashback to the narcissist I dated where I felt like a convenient body. Because B and I are Christian, he would make comments about reeling things back....but that never happened. Even the night he broke up with me he still wanted one more physical experience (from behind). The thing is....that became my card...when things felt they were going sidewise...I would always offer something physical....as if I had no worth outside of that. And when that wasn’t enough to win him back...I just felt broken.
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Jun 14, 2021 13:49:42 GMT
No. How Avoidants operate is abusive. One prime example is that avoidants tend to leave physically or mentally and have the tendency to be passive aggressive whenever there is a disagreement or issue in a relationship. Next comes the stonewalling. Stonewalling is classified as domestic abuse. Another one that I have experienced myself is the hyper focusing on every little flaw of their partners and then pick the partner apart. That verbal assault is classified as domestic abuse too. What about the string along? Doesn't it mean they're abusing the goodwill of others? Yes all of the above can be argued that the avoidant did not deliberately or consciously do and deserves some slack. I think there must be a certain level of responsibility here whereby one is still liable for damages even if you didn't deliberately back into someone's car. Whenever there is damage done, someone is responsible. Same goes for damaging someone's mental state. So again..it is about intention.....and I agree that with a narcissist, the intention is there. I would not agree that the intention is there with unaware avoidants because they are working off old wounds versus intentionally trying to hurt the other person. Believe me, when I came out of the 3 year relationship with the narcissist...I trusted no one...I looked for narcissistic signs in everyone. I cannot imagine spending over a decade in that world....the pain you must have experienced by trying to meet her needs. I think it would be beneficial to explore if your last partner was a narcissist versus an avoidant.
|
|
|
Post by dullboat123 on Jun 14, 2021 23:00:27 GMT
So again..it is about intention.....and I agree that with a narcissist, the intention is there. I would not agree that the intention is there with unaware avoidants because they are working off old wounds versus intentionally trying to hurt the other person. Believe me, when I came out of the 3 year relationship with the narcissist...I trusted no one...I looked for narcissistic signs in everyone. I cannot imagine spending over a decade in that world....the pain you must have experienced by trying to meet her needs. I think it would be beneficial to explore if your last partner was a narcissist versus an avoidant. I do agree that there are some narcissistic traits from my ex but see I went through the same narcissistic abuse as you but for 16 years. Like you, I was hyper vigilant on new partners that displayed traits of narcissism. However I did not detect any as she did not isolate me from my friends and family, did not devalue me (in the beginning), does not have grandiosity (she's starkly the opposite).....She does appear to have all the traits of an avoidant. No matter where I look on traits of an avoidant (and how I eventually ended up here), she displayed those traits 90%. The only thing she didn't display is the Phantom Ex. Maybe I am now the Phantom because I got closer than anyone has ever been and is the first one that she actually made the decision that she want to marry. Even my counsellor, upon hearing some of the things she did, said that there is definitely something wrong with her and it could be borderline personality disorder or even sociopathic. Either ways, avoidant, sociopath, narcissist, BPD......doesn't matter. Its over now and if she doesn't seek help, she is on a downward spiral. I do not wish her the best because she already had it and is too immature to value it. Sorry for the thread hijack.
|
|
star
New Member
Posts: 25
|
Post by star on Jun 16, 2021 20:07:49 GMT
I'm an FA male. And I have done this quiet a lot in the past. The whole compartmentalizing sex thing. In fact I have lost quiet a few previous partners in the early stages of dating because they thought I was gay. For me it's mostly a trust issue as Alexandra rightly pointed out. (She's quiet the wise lady in my experience, possibly my favorite poster on the forum if you'll indulge me a moment of brown nosing). My experience is that sex has been used as a covert contract often by the women in my life more often than not, so I'm very wary of it. Whereas I can meet my needs for connection by being emotionally intimate with someone, without it being used as leverage to control me. Or at least much less likely to. So I'm usually the guy that is described as being a great listener, or always there for her when she needs me...but confusing why I won't put out, or stop putting out when there's a trust issue. Thanks for sharing krolle. This is really interesting.. I kind of wondered if he was gay early on too.. Our first date was at a restaurant, very casual, just a hug. After, he texted every day with interest but didn't see me again until over a month later at his house. On that date, he was all over me to the point where it made me feel uncomfortable. Like, you were so reserved and now suddenly you want to rip my clothes off? I resisted, and he totally backed off- and then after that date it was clear he wanted to be exclusive and paid a lot of attention to me....but then every date after that was totally platonic... I even brought it up and he said he had been in situations before where he had sex too quickly and then the relationship became all about sex. so he wanted to hold off bc he saw me as "so much more." Well, he held off for 2 months. When we finally did it, after a long day of hanging out- it was so awkward and mechanical. I was pretty bummed that he couldn't let loose, and from there the sex was just always awkward. He seemed almost ashamed or embarrassed in some way? Speaking of compartmentalization- I often wondered if he'd get wild and crazy with his casual hookups. Also often wondered, if I had had sex w him on that second date, if he would have not seen me as relationship material. Does any of that sound familiar? Wondering about what you said re:sex feeling like covert contracts..
|
|
|
Post by anne12 on Jun 16, 2021 20:29:34 GMT
There's a post/thread about sex and lovemaking. General discussion forum. Maybe you will find it relevant. jebkinnisonforum.com/post/37258/Also - The impact of oxytocin: The effects of oxytocin are exacerbated by estrogen and minimized by testosterone. The bonding effect seems to last 2-3 weeks in women and 2-3 days in men. This could partly explain why younger women get more attached due to sex than younger men; and why post-menopausal women experience more freedom around sex while older men want regular sex to feel connected to their partners. It also explains why we see each other in a different light after orgasm (it’s orgasm that counts, with or without intercourse). Both men and women may want to consider the effects of oxytocin. Are you ready for that attachment, either by you or to you? Are you ready to abandon judgment? Some people have got a split between their heart and their genitals/their sex. It's called the rigid character structure. They are either able to have sex with or they can love their partner. But it is not possible to combine the two together at the same time. jebkinnisonforum.com/post/37459/
|
|
star
New Member
Posts: 25
|
Post by star on Jun 16, 2021 21:36:55 GMT
There's a post/thread about sex and lovemaking. General discussion forum. Maybe you will find it relevant. jebkinnisonforum.com/post/37258/Also - The impact of oxytocin: The effects of oxytocin are exacerbated by estrogen and minimized by testosterone. The bonding effect seems to last 2-3 weeks in women and 2-3 days in men. This could partly explain why younger women get more attached due to sex than younger men; and why post-menopausal women experience more freedom around sex while older men want regular sex to feel connected to their partners. It also explains why we see each other in a different light after orgasm (it’s orgasm that counts, with or without intercourse). Both men and women may want to consider the effects of oxytocin. Are you ready for that attachment, either by you or to you? Are you ready to abandon judgment? Some people have got a split between their heart and their genitals/their sex. It's called the rigid character structure. They are either able to have sex with or they can love their partner. But it is not possible to combine the two together at the same time. jebkinnisonforum.com/post/37459/Wow. I had never heard of rigid character structure or bioenergetics- so fascinating, I am not looking to generalize, but the physical and emotional traits of the rigid character structure are SO SPOT ON. Adding another dimension to attachment theory for me. Thanks anne12
|
|
|
Post by happinessrules on Jun 21, 2021 2:31:05 GMT
Hi! First time posting. So glad I found this community Recently left my bf (45M) after 3 years. I suspect he is DA but maybe a hybrid and would love to get some advice on his attachment style, and also the effort he put in. When we first met, things were pretty great. He is successful, handsome, funny, athletic, high self esteem, alpha male. Total catch. He seemed into it too, he always showed up, texted regularly, made plans and kept them. He met my family but I never met his family. He never saw them once! (He is an adult child of an alcoholic mom.) It took a while to be intimate, but he said he wanted to wait bc he saw the relationship as so much more. When we finally did, it never felt spontaneous or hot. And I realized quickly that he never initiated, which was hard for me. Eventually I started feeling like I was being a burden. When I would bring it up, he admitted intimacy was hard for him when he really liked someone. Casual relationships were easier. I asked multiple times to go to couples therapy, he declined. And bc I was vocal about my needs w intimacy, it became the elephant in the room.. and intimacy became as rare as an African elephant sighting, ironically. We chugged along this way for a while. I am secure, so I tried to give him A LOT of space. We saw each other twice a week or so, sometimes more. After a year of this and me asking for more affection, more intimacy, just more in general- he said I needed to stay over more for him to become more comfortable. So, I packed a big bag and stayed over for 2 months. I thought things were going good, but my intuition told me he was somewhat relieved when I went back to my place. He never asked me to stay again, but would make passive aggressive remarks to his pets, saying to them that I didnt want to stay over, while I was in earshot. But at the same time, he'd cram all my stuff in a drawer, out of sight, like he was hiding me. SO many mixed messages. In the beginning he said he wanted kids, but as time went on, he started to back down, saying he wasn't sure anymore. So I tried to walk away- but he convinced me to stay- saying he just needed more time and that he saw us being together, all in. So, I waited... all the while feeling more and more alone. Finally he told me he didn't want kids. I was pretty upset, as I was nearing the end of my fertile years and felt strung along. But by this point I said I could be ok with the no kids, but I still wanted marriage. He said he didn't want a big wedding, and we started talking about buying a house and combining our finances. He also started doing therapy on his own so he could be a better partner for me. After a few months of this, yet no further talk of future plans, he announced he was done with therapy. I said great, can we talk about our future? He started to stall again. At this point, I was ready to walk away - so I said it's been 3 years, its time to sh*t or get off the pot. He said he couldn't do it. I asked him why didn't he tell me sooner than just waiting for me to get to this point? He said bc he always thought he could fix it and address my needs eventually, and that loss of attraction wasn't the issue. He just couldn't make the leap. I had so many feelings/questions/etc but I was just so hurt and upset, and honestly, kind of over it- so I told him I thought he should continue therapy and best of luck. Did I push him over the edge prematurely? The whole break up was so weird. It all happened over text. He texted me a few days after to shoot the shit, which felt so bizarrely casual so I never responded. It's now been a month without contact. I have gone through a rollercoaster of emotions from anger, sadness, disbelief, to just WTF! Also, he never acknowledged how hard I tried to be patient, hoping he'd live up to what he said he wanted...it always felt like it was about him and his issues. And I am still so angry about feeling strung along during some really crucial years that I could have been with someone who wanted to have a kid (and meant it!) I have been trying to understand what happened by researching online, and on the plus side, have found so much helpful info. I just would love some advice on his attachment style and insight into his behavior? For my own sanity.
|
|
|
Post by anne12 on Jun 24, 2021 6:58:53 GMT
|
|
star
New Member
Posts: 25
|
Post by star on Jun 24, 2021 19:14:32 GMT
|
|
|
Post by krolle on Jun 25, 2021 11:17:13 GMT
I'm an FA male. And I have done this quiet a lot in the past. The whole compartmentalizing sex thing. In fact I have lost quiet a few previous partners in the early stages of dating because they thought I was gay. For me it's mostly a trust issue as Alexandra rightly pointed out. (She's quiet the wise lady in my experience, possibly my favorite poster on the forum if you'll indulge me a moment of brown nosing). My experience is that sex has been used as a covert contract often by the women in my life more often than not, so I'm very wary of it. Whereas I can meet my needs for connection by being emotionally intimate with someone, without it being used as leverage to control me. Or at least much less likely to. So I'm usually the guy that is described as being a great listener, or always there for her when she needs me...but confusing why I won't put out, or stop putting out when there's a trust issue. Thanks for sharing krolle. This is really interesting.. I kind of wondered if he was gay early on too.. Our first date was at a restaurant, very casual, just a hug. After, he texted every day with interest but didn't see me again until over a month later at his house. On that date, he was all over me to the point where it made me feel uncomfortable. Like, you were so reserved and now suddenly you want to rip my clothes off? I resisted, and he totally backed off- and then after that date it was clear he wanted to be exclusive and paid a lot of attention to me....but then every date after that was totally platonic... I even brought it up and he said he had been in situations before where he had sex too quickly and then the relationship became all about sex. so he wanted to hold off bc he saw me as "so much more." Well, he held off for 2 months. When we finally did it, after a long day of hanging out- it was so awkward and mechanical. I was pretty bummed that he couldn't let loose, and from there the sex was just always awkward. He seemed almost ashamed or embarrassed in some way? Speaking of compartmentalization- I often wondered if he'd get wild and crazy with his casual hookups. Also often wondered, if I had had sex w him on that second date, if he would have not seen me as relationship material. Does any of that sound familiar? Wondering about what you said re:sex feeling like covert contracts.. Remember people are much more than their attachment styles. Attachment styles are a useful indicators of a pattern of relating but aren't the b all and end all of a person. Maybe he has issues with sex because he's been told he's not very good at it and feels embarrassed or was frightened of losing you?, Maybe he held off because sexuality was taboo or punishable in the environment he grew up in. Maybe the night he was all over you, you just looked really good and caused him to be aroused lol. My point is there could be many reasons and not all related to attachment style. having said that... If he is FA then The way he was very interested one minute then backed off hard the next, rinse, repeat, is quiet understandable. One of the core subconscious mechanism of us FA's is distance management. He will have been queuing into your behaviour and adjusting his to keep you at a safe distance. You back off or seem unavailable, he'll show as AP as he becomes frightened of losing you. You want more and become too available or needy he'll back off. I can see how that would be very frustrating to somebody trying to plan their future around a time limited biological clock. And I know it doesn't do much to relieve the frustration, but know it is almost entirely subconscious. When he was chasing you he likely did feel really into you and saw a future and kids and was planning for that, when he was really deactivated he really likely couldn't imagine a future with you...or anyone perhaps. It's impossible to say if he would have viewed you relationship material if you had slept together early on. I'v had partners who I slept with early on and they turned into several year commited relationships. Others I never saw again. there's lots of factors which dictate whether he viewed you as relationship material regardless of sex timeline. Sex can be a conflicted situation for FA's. And if I were to use one word actually to define an FA in general it would be probably be conflicted.
|
|
star
New Member
Posts: 25
|
Post by star on Jun 25, 2021 20:59:12 GMT
Love your perspective krolle!!! gawd. in hindsight it just felt like a losing game. I push to get more of my needs met, he can't do it, I get annoyed, he gets triggered by the annoyance and deactivates. I've been reading how the best partners for those leaning FA/DA would be secure- but I think it's only if everyone is aware and seeking help/actively addressing. otherwise it doesn't seem like secure behavior to stay in that sort of dynamic for long.
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jun 26, 2021 3:59:18 GMT
I've been reading how the best partners for those leaning FA/DA would be secure- but I think it's only if everyone is aware and seeking help/actively addressing. otherwise it doesn't seem like secure behavior to stay in that sort of dynamic for long. I agree with this 💯
|
|