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Post by blacksnow2 on Jun 30, 2021 17:21:04 GMT
Very true tnr9 and alexandra. It does lie on a spectrum though, and I've witnessed people who I'm sure have full blown NPD (father, although he's never been diagnosed because, surprise, he thinks nothing is wrong with him) have moments of introspection... that's just it though, they're only moments. And they usually reach that point when something is repeatedly enforced by external sources. But in general, yeah, they're not self aware. They know what they're doing in terms of manipulation, sure, but it doesn't get any deeper than that. |
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Post by blacksnow2 on Jun 30, 2021 18:03:22 GMT
I would also like to remove the stigma around therapy…..therapy is wonderful for addressing trauma that was experienced as a child. I credit therapy for improving my relations with friends and family…it has given me tools to deal with any nervous system overwhelm, it has allowed me to stop and consider my actions both before they occur and after. I have a greater sense of empathy towards myself and others. In fact, I read an article recently about Rob Lowe in which he said that family therapy sessions were a regular part of his family’s life and that he saw therapy for the mind/emotions the way he saw exercise for the body. Since you're talking about therapy, I felt this urge to share my probably controversial view on it.
I believe therapy is very helpful for a lot of people. I truly think it has saved my sister's life (she has pretty bad OCD stemming from trauma).
But personally, I always wondered why I never liked therapy, and I was able to figure it out just recently. A therapist for a lot of people, especially those with attachment disorders and issues, is like the first 'secure' relationship model. But by design, there is a power imbalance between the therapist and the patient, which is due to information asymmetry: the therapist always knows more about the patient than vice versa. So I could never trust this 'model' and it was never really 'secure' for me. A relationship should not have a power imbalance. This is why I never stuck around long enough in any therapy. General distrust, and always wanting the therapist to share THEIR unresolved issues in exchange for me telling them my darkest secrets. lol
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Post by krolle on Jun 30, 2021 18:42:55 GMT
But the difference between you and a narcissist is your ability to have empathy…..one of the key traits of a narcissist is low empathy. Without empathy, everything is about the self. ... My prior therapist was married to an NPD for 3 years and did a lot of research…she used to tell me all the time that a true NPD doesn’t see anything wrong with who he/she is…they will simply find new people to support them. Yes to all this! Having been close to NPD, there is zero introspection, empathy, or questioning that maybe the NPD is wrong or has an issue. They'd rather just find new "supply." Asking if you're a narcissist is generally a big sign that you don't have NPD. Someone with NPD would instead project and decide everyone else is the problem and may be narcissists. I know someone with a family member doing this right now, and it's so hard because they'd hoped the interest in learning about the condition was progress for the person. Nope, just self-victimization with fancier words now, "wow, so everyone around me has NPD and that's why they treat me badly!" Oh man I'v been there. it's face Palm worthy sometimes. I remember bringing up conversations about gaslighting and stuff with a friend before. In hopes of educating them about their behaviour. All that happened was the next week their Instagram posts about playing the victim were more vocabulary dense lol. In terms of my struggle with empathy as it relates to Narcassism. Is that I have often struggled with EMOTIONAL empathy because I struggle to understand not only others emotions but also my own. So as an FA and very attuned to social cues I am very COGNITIVELY empathetic. I know if someone's upset and 'how I should be acting toward them' but there's very little feeling going on viscerally. I'm told that NPD's can be very cognitively empathetic as a manipulation tool. In addition to questioning if oneself is narcassistic being an indicator they are likeky not. Again im not so sure. I can envision a scenario where one simply acts as though they question being a narcissist in order to get validation, encouragement from their peers (I.e you guys) that they aren't to blame/bad etc. So I still feel room to doubt myself. Apologies that I'm always the "Yeah but.." guy in these discussions. Its part of my cynical nature to question anything that is said Even if I highly respect the opinion. |
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Post by tnr9 on Jun 30, 2021 18:43:37 GMT
I would also like to remove the stigma around therapy…..therapy is wonderful for addressing trauma that was experienced as a child. I credit therapy for improving my relations with friends and family…it has given me tools to deal with any nervous system overwhelm, it has allowed me to stop and consider my actions both before they occur and after. I have a greater sense of empathy towards myself and others. In fact, I read an article recently about Rob Lowe in which he said that family therapy sessions were a regular part of his family’s life and that he saw therapy for the mind/emotions the way he saw exercise for the body. Since you're talking about therapy, I felt this urge to share my probably controversial view on it.
I believe therapy is very helpful for a lot of people. I truly think it has saved my sister's life (she has pretty bad OCD stemming from trauma).
But personally, I always wondered why I never liked therapy, and I was able to figure it out just recently. A therapist for a lot of people, especially those with attachment disorders and issues, is like the first 'secure' relationship model. But by design, there is a power imbalance between the therapist and the patient, which is due to information asymmetry: the therapist always knows more about the patient than vice versa. So I could never trust this 'model' and it was never really 'secure' for me. A relationship should not have a power imbalance. This is why I never stuck around long enough in any therapy. General distrust, and always wanting the therapist to share THEIR unresolved issues in exchange for me telling them my darkest secrets. lol
I get that perspective….both my therapists have shared with me and have viewed us as equals rather then a one up one down model. In fact, my current therapist reminds me all the time that she is my advocate….especially when I start fearing I will disappoint her or that there is some expectation of me. The reminder is incredibly helpful since my dad was a psychiatrist and I felt analyzed all the time by him. I think it is normal when trust is broken to be very wary of therapists…which is why it is so critical to find a good match rather then trying to white knuckle it and make no progress. I do highly recommend somatic experiencing since it is working through trauma held in the body. |
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Post by annieb on Jun 30, 2021 18:52:31 GMT
I would also like to remove the stigma around therapy…..therapy is wonderful for addressing trauma that was experienced as a child. I credit therapy for improving my relations with friends and family…it has given me tools to deal with any nervous system overwhelm, it has allowed me to stop and consider my actions both before they occur and after. I have a greater sense of empathy towards myself and others. In fact, I read an article recently about Rob Lowe in which he said that family therapy sessions were a regular part of his family’s life and that he saw therapy for the mind/emotions the way he saw exercise for the body. Since you're talking about therapy, I felt this urge to share my probably controversial view on it.
I believe therapy is very helpful for a lot of people. I truly think it has saved my sister's life (she has pretty bad OCD stemming from trauma).
But personally, I always wondered why I never liked therapy, and I was able to figure it out just recently. A therapist for a lot of people, especially those with attachment disorders and issues, is like the first 'secure' relationship model. But by design, there is a power imbalance between the therapist and the patient, which is due to information asymmetry: the therapist always knows more about the patient than vice versa. So I could never trust this 'model' and it was never really 'secure' for me. A relationship should not have a power imbalance. This is why I never stuck around long enough in any therapy. General distrust, and always wanting the therapist to share THEIR unresolved issues in exchange for me telling them my darkest secrets. lol
That's funny, because the therapist that I made the most progress with always shares stories from her own experience, and I always thank her for that, I think those have been more helpful than anything else. And she shares stories from her other patients lives, which has been extremely helpful. |
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Post by blacksnow2 on Jun 30, 2021 19:00:21 GMT
In terms of my struggle with empathy as it relates to Narcassism. Is that I have often struggled with EMOTIONAL empathy because I struggle to understand not only others emotions but also my own. So as an FA and very attuned to social cues I am very COGNITIVELY empathetic. I know if someone's upset and 'how I should be acting toward them' but there's very little feeling going on viscerally. I'm told that NPD's can be very cognitively empathetic as a manipulation tool. Relatable.
tnr9 and annieb .... yeah, I mean I can see that being a much better deal. And I've had therapists share about themselves too (any good therapis should as long as it is related and it helps give more insight), but it's always resolved issues they share, and to me that's not very vulnerable. But of course, if they're to share anything else, the therapist model would sort of break, because then it's truly an exchange of equals and there's a risk that you become their therapist in a way (has also happened to me).
Edit: this could just be my own trust issues speaking, in all honesty.
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Post by star on Jun 30, 2021 21:29:59 GMT
In terms of my struggle with empathy as it relates to Narcassism. Is that I have often struggled with EMOTIONAL empathy because I struggle to understand not only others emotions but also my own. So as an FA and very attuned to social cues I am very COGNITIVELY empathetic. I know if someone's upset and 'how I should be acting toward them' but there's very little feeling going on viscerally. I'm told that NPD's can be very cognitively empathetic as a manipulation tool. This is so interesting! I always felt confused in my relationship bc my ex struggled greatly with empathy for me and also just not being able to articulate what he was feeling. What was confusing was that he managed a large team and on his Zoom calls, he was so dialed in and great at reading cues from his team members about a range of stuff- dealing with power struggles, covid burnout, and just generally checking in with everyone and their emotional state in such a skillful way--- that I couldn't understand why he wasn't like that with us. So it made me take it very personally. |
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Post by krolle on Jul 1, 2021 3:55:49 GMT
In terms of my struggle with empathy as it relates to Narcassism. Is that I have often struggled with EMOTIONAL empathy because I struggle to understand not only others emotions but also my own. So as an FA and very attuned to social cues I am very COGNITIVELY empathetic. I know if someone's upset and 'how I should be acting toward them' but there's very little feeling going on viscerally. I'm told that NPD's can be very cognitively empathetic as a manipulation tool. This is so interesting! I always felt confused in my relationship bc my ex struggled greatly with empathy for me and also just not being able to articulate what he was feeling. What was confusing was that he managed a large team and on his Zoom calls, he was so dialed in and great at reading cues from his team members about a range of stuff- dealing with power struggles, covid burnout, and just generally checking in with everyone and their emotional state in such a skillful way--- that I couldn't understand why he wasn't like that with us. So it made me take it very personally. I'd try not to take it personally. I mean it is personal, but to him. Not really a reflection of you. Emotions are weird concepts to some people. The closest degree of accuracy I can identify my emotions are a vague 'pleasant' for the good stuff and a vague 'unpleasant' for the bad stuff. There's no location to the emotion or differentiation between most of them. I'd say the most likely sensation I often feel emotionally could be described as a dull emptiness, sort of detached. Jeez that sounds grim lol There are exceptions though if the emotions are extreme enough, personal to my own core wounds. If I'm very triggered anxious I want to vomit. It's very stomach based. if I'm very triggered avoidant it's somewhere in my neck and jaw. And a blend of anger and disgust...I think... Also related, I note that empathy is also situational, at least to a begginer in self development such as myself. As much as I said I struggle with it. If I have experienced that pain, and it was intense. Then when I see someone else go through it there is indeed more of an emotional reaction. If it's something I wouldn't get upset over it's a much more conscious effort to empathize that they might. An example to perhaps help explain is through a friend of mine. She had never been broken up with or cheated on. Always was the one to do the breaking up, ghosting, cheating etc. So she had a hard time realizing it could cause so much pain to someone. Then when it did finally happen to her she was devastated, and told me she felt an intense desire to apologize to many of her former partners after it. |
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Post by blacksnow2 on Jul 1, 2021 13:47:55 GMT
I'll just say this: it's hard to be genuinely empathetic towards other people if you aren't towards yourself and your sense of self is smashed into multiple pieces.
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star
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Post by star on Jul 1, 2021 17:43:46 GMT
An example to perhaps help explain is through a friend of mine. She had never been broken up with or cheated on. Always was the one to do the breaking up, ghosting, cheating etc. So she had a hard time realizing it could cause so much pain to someone. Then when it did finally happen to her she was devastated, and told me she felt an intense desire to apologize to many of her former partners after it. omg this was like my ex. when I initiated the break up he kept saying 'we' as if it was his idea too. I wondered if he was trying to keep his record intact. he seemed pretty proud of the fact that no one had ever broken up with him, even tho most of his relationships were short. it also makes me think that probably contributes to him not being willing to look at his issues. if women don't want to leave him, he's fine right? |
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Post by krolle on Jul 2, 2021 13:22:57 GMT
An example to perhaps help explain is through a friend of mine. She had never been broken up with or cheated on. Always was the one to do the breaking up, ghosting, cheating etc. So she had a hard time realizing it could cause so much pain to someone. Then when it did finally happen to her she was devastated, and told me she felt an intense desire to apologize to many of her former partners after it. omg this was like my ex. when I initiated the break up he kept saying 'we' as if it was his idea too. I wondered if he was trying to keep his record intact. he seemed pretty proud of the fact that no one had ever broken up with him, even tho most of his relationships were short. it also makes me think that probably contributes to him not being willing to look at his issues. if women don't want to leave him, he's fine right? Be careful you aren't searching for confirmation bias in what I said. As I think you misinterpreted the intention and meaning of that post you quoted. My point on that one was to highlight how it is harder to empathize with a situation and feeling that you have not experienced yourself, or can imagine experiencing. I don't think my friend was ever really proud of not being broken up with etc, at least not consciously. She was just very attractive and non committal so it was just through probability that not many people would want to break up with her before she did. My point is she just couldn't understand it could be painful to be rejected because she had never known it, at least not in a romantic setting. In regards to your ex. what made you think he was proud of not being broken up with before? it's possibly pride. But there could be other reasons he referred to the break up as mutual. |
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Post by krolle on Jul 2, 2021 13:26:43 GMT
I'll just say this: it's hard to be genuinely empathetic towards other people if you aren't towards yourself and your sense of self is smashed into multiple pieces. I'll agree with the first part of that. Certainly true. |
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Post by krolle on Jul 2, 2021 13:41:32 GMT
I would also like to remove the stigma around therapy…..therapy is wonderful for addressing trauma that was experienced as a child. I credit therapy for improving my relations with friends and family…it has given me tools to deal with any nervous system overwhelm, it has allowed me to stop and consider my actions both before they occur and after. I have a greater sense of empathy towards myself and others. In fact, I read an article recently about Rob Lowe in which he said that family therapy sessions were a regular part of his family’s life and that he saw therapy for the mind/emotions the way he saw exercise for the body. Since you're talking about therapy, I felt this urge to share my probably controversial view on it.
I believe therapy is very helpful for a lot of people. I truly think it has saved my sister's life (she has pretty bad OCD stemming from trauma).
But personally, I always wondered why I never liked therapy, and I was able to figure it out just recently. A therapist for a lot of people, especially those with attachment disorders and issues, is like the first 'secure' relationship model. But by design, there is a power imbalance between the therapist and the patient, which is due to information asymmetry: the therapist always knows more about the patient than vice versa. So I could never trust this 'model' and it was never really 'secure' for me. A relationship should not have a power imbalance. This is why I never stuck around long enough in any therapy. General distrust, and always wanting the therapist to share THEIR unresolved issues in exchange for me telling them my darkest secrets. lol
Hmmmm. This one doesn't really resonate with my own experience. For me it was the opposite. I'v never tried therapy, mostly due to financial reasons. But when I had councelling (much cheaper where I'm from) I became disillusioned by it because there WASN'T a power imbalance, if we're referring to knowledge as power in this instance any way. I don't want to pay for the services of a peer who is in the same boat as me. I'm not sure why I would want to pay the advice of someone who is still struggling with their problems like me. I do appreciate the discussion with peers and believe a lot can be gained from it. After that's why I'm here on this forum. But I wouldn't pay for it, or view it as therapy. If I am able to afford therapy at some point in the near future the only way I would be able to respect their opinion is if there was a power balance in their favour. I want to talk to a wise sage so to speak, who is so beyond my knowledge of psychology, life experience, and how to be successful in relationships that talking with them and adopting their views is an eye opener. But perhaps I misunderstood your meaning. Maybe you meant you need to know what they've been through when you refer to knowledge. So that when they try empathize you it seems more valid or something. I'd like to hear your thoughts blacksnow. |
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Post by star on Jul 2, 2021 19:55:13 GMT
omg this was like my ex. when I initiated the break up he kept saying 'we' as if it was his idea too. I wondered if he was trying to keep his record intact. he seemed pretty proud of the fact that no one had ever broken up with him, even tho most of his relationships were short. it also makes me think that probably contributes to him not being willing to look at his issues. if women don't want to leave him, he's fine right? Be careful you aren't searching for confirmation bias in what I said. As I think you misinterpreted the intention and meaning of that post you quoted. My point on that one was to highlight how it is harder to empathize with a situation and feeling that you have not experienced yourself, or can imagine experiencing. I don't think my friend was ever really proud of not being broken up with etc, at least not consciously. She was just very attractive and non committal so it was just through probability that not many people would want to break up with her before she did. My point is she just couldn't understand it could be painful to be rejected because she had never known it, at least not in a romantic setting. In regards to your ex. what made you think he was proud of not being broken up with before? it's possibly pride. But there could be other reasons he referred to the break up as mutual. Yes, I understand your point and it's not about confirmation bias, I realize how my post didn't make that clear. The reason I felt like my ex was proud of it was bc of the tone of voice in how he said it. It's hard to express via this forum. Like once, I was talking about how some breakups were more painful than others, and he couldn't relate, saying oh, no one's ever broken up with John, talking of himself in the third person with a big smile and laugh. (not his real name). Your example resonated with me bc it just made me think, regardless of feeling proud or not, that he probably also has no idea how much he's hurt other people bc he's never been rejected. The pride thing was just another layer that was specific to him, not your friend. |
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Post by krolle on Jul 3, 2021 0:13:13 GMT
Be careful you aren't searching for confirmation bias in what I said. As I think you misinterpreted the intention and meaning of that post you quoted. My point on that one was to highlight how it is harder to empathize with a situation and feeling that you have not experienced yourself, or can imagine experiencing. I don't think my friend was ever really proud of not being broken up with etc, at least not consciously. She was just very attractive and non committal so it was just through probability that not many people would want to break up with her before she did. My point is she just couldn't understand it could be painful to be rejected because she had never known it, at least not in a romantic setting. In regards to your ex. what made you think he was proud of not being broken up with before? it's possibly pride. But there could be other reasons he referred to the break up as mutual. Yes, I understand your point and it's not about confirmation bias, I realize how my post didn't make that clear. The reason I felt like my ex was proud of it was bc of the tone of voice in how he said it. It's hard to express via this forum. Like once, I was talking about how some breakups were more painful than others, and he couldn't relate, saying oh, no one's ever broken up with John, talking of himself in the third person with a big smile and laugh. (not his real name). Your example resonated with me bc it just made me think, regardless of feeling proud or not, that he probably also has no idea how much he's hurt other people bc he's never been rejected. The pride thing was just another layer that was specific to him, not your friend. Ah right. Completely understandable then star. Talking about yourself in the third person and laughing while your partner opens up about a painful experience. I'd say fairly obnoxious behaviour.....As you were... |
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