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Post by mrob on Jul 18, 2021 23:39:37 GMT
For me, a couple of things: If I feel manipulated, I go numb. A twilight zone between angry and sad. I’m either going to say something I’ll regret, or cry. Thats why you need therapy to have the emotional depth to deal with such things in a mature manner. Either you call it out immediately, tell the perpetrator how you feel and correct the action....or brush it off by saying "you're a dick" like 80% of Earth's population would do and carry on. No need to be numb, no need to freeze, no need to stonewall because it isn't productive at all. Not to mention stonewalling is the last but not the least of the 4 Horsemen of Divorce and relationship breakdown as found by John Gottman. I’d agree with the last one. But when you’re being manipulated, the situation is not always safe to “brush it off”. I think you’re minimising your part in this, and it’s effects on the other person. The other thing is that If I’m going to therapy because you’re telling me to, it’s the wrong reason and nothing will change. Nothing will change until I want change on my own.
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Post by dullboat123 on Jul 19, 2021 0:05:28 GMT
I’d agree with the last one. But when you’re being manipulated, the situation is not always safe to “brush it off”. I think you’re minimising your part in this, and it’s effects on the other person. The other thing is that If I’m going to therapy because you’re telling me to, it’s the wrong reason and nothing will change. Nothing will change until I want change on my own. I don't know what culture you're from but people here do that all the time - from my friends, to family to colleagues to managers. E.G (1) I'll tell my boss I am working from home on Friday due to Covid and want to limit my exposure. He will say "Yeah right, you're working especially on a Friday.". I won't feel like I'm manipulated. I just laugh, work from home and continue to submit my deliverables. (2) I'll tell my friends I am sick and can't go to his drinking session. He will say "Harden up Princess! You just want to stay home with your girlfriend!". I don't feel manipulated. I'll tell him to fk off, we both laugh and I'll take a raincheck for the next drinking session. I'd probably make it up to him by bringing a bottle of Canadian Club whiskey since its our favourite. (3) I'll tell my mum I'm going for my swimming training. She will say "I know you're going to the arcade and blow your pocket money first right?". I won't feel manipulated. I'll tell her the truth that I am indeed going to the swimming training and head home after having my dinner.
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Post by dullboat123 on Jul 19, 2021 0:09:03 GMT
The other thing is that If I’m going to therapy because you’re telling me to, it’s the wrong reason and nothing will change. Nothing will change until I want change on my own. That is the thing about avoidants that are not being self-aware or simply too narcissistic to go get help. Just like doctora, Simon and myself whom have nothing but the best intentions for our avoidant exes, you have no idea the amount of devastation the avoidants have caused. I have no issues owning my part. I'll apologise and try to correct my behaviours, which I had been doing for the past year when all she did was strung me along, while enjoying the full benefits of being in a relationship while giving back absolutely nothing. Would she own her part then (we already know she won't and blamed it all on me instead) of insulting me and my children, telling lies, pulling away, distancing, keeping secrets, stringing me along, being rude to me and my children, physically assaulting me, hot and cold etc? Trying to downplay their shitty behaviours and the damage they caused feels the same way as being a survivor of the Holocaust and being told it didn't happen.
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Post by mrob on Jul 19, 2021 0:15:14 GMT
You’ve now crossed the line into being offensive, and I’ll leave this conversation here.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2021 0:25:42 GMT
The other thing is that If I’m going to therapy because you’re telling me to, it’s the wrong reason and nothing will change. Nothing will change until I want change on my own. That is the thing about avoidants that are not being self-aware or simply too narcissistic to go get help. Just like doctora, Simon and myself whom have nothing but the best intentions for our avoidant exes, you have no idea the amount of devastation the avoidants have caused. I have no issues owning my part. I'll apologise and try to correct my behaviours, which I had been doing for the past year when all she did was strung me along, while enjoying the full benefits of being in a relationship while giving back absolutely nothing. Would she own her part then (we already know she won't and blamed it all on me instead) of insulting me and my children, telling lies, pulling away, distancing, keeping secrets, stringing me along, being rude to me and my children, physically assaulting me, hot and cold etc? Trying to downplay their shitty behaviours and the damage they caused feels the same way as being a survivor of the Holocaust and being told it didn't happen. You're a dick for invoking the Holocaust over your shitty little relationship. If you need to be told why, you're also a moron.
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Post by dullboat123 on Jul 19, 2021 0:27:57 GMT
I'm sorry if the truth is offensive to you. If its offensive to you, try being on the receiving end.
Goodbye. I hope you get some therapy and perhaps heal some of your FA tendencies.
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Post by dullboat123 on Jul 19, 2021 0:30:33 GMT
You're a dick for invoking the Holocaust over your shitty little relationship. If you need to be told why, you're also a moron. There you go. The real side of an avoidant comes out.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2021 0:39:28 GMT
You're a dick for invoking the Holocaust over your shitty little relationships. If you need to be told why, you're also a moron. There you go. The real side of an avoidant comes out. Your own suggestion: blow it off by saying "you're a dick" like 80 percent of the population would. I do believe 80 percent of the population would think you're a dick for invoking the holocaust. You're nothing but a troll really, but your suggestion was gold. At any rate, moving on as well. 😋
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Post by annieb on Jul 19, 2021 5:00:47 GMT
For me, a couple of things: If I feel manipulated, I go numb. A twilight zone between angry and sad. I’m either going to say something I’ll regret, or cry. Thats why you need therapy to have the emotional depth to deal with such things in a mature manner. Either you call it out immediately, tell the perpetrator how you feel and correct the action....or brush it off by saying "you're a dick" like 80% of Earth's population would do and carry on. No need to be numb, no need to freeze, no need to stonewall because it isn't productive at all. Not to mention stonewalling is the last but not the least of the 4 Horsemen of Divorce and relationship breakdown as found by John Gottman. Suffice to say, one of the main issues of an unaware avoidant is that their conflict resolution is extremely poor. Which is why they mainly have no real friends and their relationships shallow. This serves as a major red flag in identifying avoidants or difficult people in the dating phase. One insult doesn’t cancel out the other insult and I’m sorry it went into tit for tat with her, that is the worst. But I understand you are saying that her coping methods are different than your coping methods. We all deal with stress differently and it’s what we know and are capable. When I think of my last DA and his coping methods, they now seem comical to me. They seem like there is no way I could have had a relationship with him that lasted more than a year, but I do not try to understand his methods any more. Because I do understand them, I accept them and we are moving on and hopefully one day we both meet someone, who can interact with us in a more constructive way, for both of us. Because even though he is a DA and is pretty horrible it was me who hung in there for dear life with him, and that’s my responsibility. I take that and I move forward. With you it seems like you still haven’t looked at why you repeat this pattern in your life. What is your role in this and most importantly the feelings you feel about yourself - are you trying to make them come from her, so you don’t have to own them?. That’s the general sense I get from your posts. You’ve basically assigned her the source of all your negative feelings and closed the case. If you can access this trap, you will make progress. You are still here so I think subconsciously you are trying to.
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Post by dullboat123 on Jul 19, 2021 7:46:17 GMT
One insult doesn’t cancel out the other insult and I’m sorry it went into tit for tat with her, that is the worst. But I understand you are saying that her coping methods are different than your coping methods. We all deal with stress differently and it’s what we know and are capable. When I think of my last DA and his coping methods, they now seem comical to me. They seem like there is no way I could have had a relationship with him that lasted more than a year, but I do not try to understand his methods any more. Because I do understand them, I accept them and we are moving on and hopefully one day we both meet someone, who can interact with us in a more constructive way, for both of us. Because even though he is a DA and is pretty horrible it was me who hung in there for dear life with him, and that’s my responsibility. I take that and I move forward. With you it seems like you still haven’t looked at why you repeat this pattern in your life. What is your role in this and most importantly the feelings you feel about yourself - are you trying to make them come from her, so you don’t have to own them?. That’s the general sense I get from your posts. You’ve basically assigned her the source of all your negative feelings and closed the case. If you can access this trap, you will make progress. You are still here so I think subconsciously you are trying to. What I'm trying to point out is that stonewalling, under any circumstances is considered a destructive behaviour. No good will ever come out of that. I'm just calling a spade a spade. I do not condone stonewalling and just let it slide as "we all deal with stress differently". No. Stonewalling is classified as abuse and in some countries, domestic violence. I was constantly on the receiving end of it with my ex and I can tell you it is mentally abusive. No. I feel that you shouldn't take it upon yourself that you hung onto a DA. Its your capacity to love and that is totally not a bad thing. You hung in there because you think there is potential though there is none. Its hollow. They operate with a mask depending on who they're with or their aim as researchers found. I'm sure the DA isn't horrible ALL. THE. TIME. Or else leaving him quick smart will be apparent and easy. Thing is with avoidants, they blow hot and cold, string you along and have no idea the devastation they caused. Then to add salt to the wound, blames it all on you for the relationship break down. Those gets us trauma bonded. Almost like Stockholm syndrome. All because we have faith, we have love and we have commitment. That is the light within us which they took full advantage of. It is only my 2nd relationship except my marriage. So no, its not really a repeat pattern in my life. Both relationships are unique and devastating in their own ways and I have no experience prior to spot the red flags. I owned my issues, spend countless hours and dollars in therapy. But in the end and confirmed by my therapists, I realized I'm being gaslighted. That is why all the negatives are tied to her. How would you feel if I told you your kids are useless and that they'll never find a partner?
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Post by krolle on Jul 19, 2021 15:09:27 GMT
....This all feels scarily familiar to me.
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Post by dullboat123 on Jul 19, 2021 23:30:01 GMT
....This all feels scarily familiar to me. This might be because avoidants have low trust for pretty much everyone as a default setting. Thus everything is personal. Everything is manipulation. Everyone is trying to hurt or use them. Call it extreme form of cynicism where they simply see the worst in everyone to satisfy their internal narrative of an abyss of hurt. My ex would start to eat diazepam like there is no tomorrow when she was with me as life with me was at it's best - things are stable, we are going back to my country to meet my parents, I am loving, caring, generous, supportive of her in every way.....only to have her say "this is too perfect. It can't be true. I know something will go wrong and people leave me.". I was puzzled because life was really good, we both have our jobs in the pandemic, we are getting closer. There are just nothing that is anxiety inducing and yet her anxiety increased by the day. She blamed it all on the fear of flying (yet she travelled most of Europe. Go figure). Now I know its anxiety rising from not finding a fatal flaw in the relationship. That was the beginning of the end where after the trip home, my mum calling her "daughter" and buying the wedding dress, she came back from the trip and started to withdraw. As she withdrew, my unaware, secure self began to destabilize as I have no idea what is going on. Thinking I am not good enough, I tried and tried while getting more and more anxious. Then she really had something to latch on - that I'm unstable.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2021 12:47:27 GMT
....This all feels scarily familiar to me. This might be because avoidants have low trust for pretty much everyone as a default setting. Thus everything is personal. Everything is manipulation. Everyone is trying to hurt or use them. Call it extreme form of cynicism where they simply see the worst in everyone to satisfy their internal narrative of an abyss of hurt. My ex would start to eat diazepam like there is no tomorrow when she was with me as life with me was at it's best - things are stable, we are going back to my country to meet my parents, I am loving, caring, generous, supportive of her in every way.....only to have her say "this is too perfect. It can't be true. I know something will go wrong and people leave me.". I was puzzled because life was really good, we both have our jobs in the pandemic, we are getting closer. There are just nothing that is anxiety inducing and yet her anxiety increased by the day. She blamed it all on the fear of flying (yet she travelled most of Europe. Go figure). Now I know its anxiety rising from not finding a fatal flaw in the relationship. That was the beginning of the end where after the trip home, my mum calling her "daughter" and buying the wedding dress, she came back from the trip and started to withdraw. As she withdrew, my unaware, secure self began to destabilize as I have no idea what is going on. Thinking I am not good enough, I tried and tried while getting more and more anxious. Then she really had something to latch on - that I'm unstable. It may feel familiar not because of faulty traits inherent in everyone you interact with here, but because of your malignant, abusive communication style. Your communication is full of the characteristics of an abuser. The tactics you employ to attempt to silence the voices of those here that you have generalized as sick, incapable people include: Condescension: You're sarcastic, disdainful, and patronizing Circular nonsense: You suggest the "mature" tactic of name calling to deal with disagreement, and when I literally did exactly what you suggested you foolishly attempted to call me out on it, as if you forgot that you just suggesting doing this. Countering: You suggest that everything others contribute here is wrong, and that your generalizations are the only truth in the discussion (generalizations and blanket statements also being a verbal abuse tactic you employ) Criticism: You persistently employ harsh criticism in order to drive home your point, allowing no room for nuance nor alternative explanation, there is no deviation from your blame and shame method of communication It appears that in the face of your incivility, others here have gone to great lengths to remain civil, but behind the scenes the conversation is that you are suspected to be highly disordered. Most won't point you in the direction of considering a personality disorder in yourself because it could be seen as a way to amplify your behavior here instead of mediate it- mainly because you show a stunning lack of self awareness. That, and you turn everything into "There you go, that's an avoidant for you." That alone is a verbal abuse tactic- discounting everything, generalizing, trivializing, it's all there. At any rate, you've managed to erode the quality of the interactions forum with your continuous victim rants. In real life, as on the 'net, people tire of the person who continually nags, complains, attacks. There's little doubt in my mind that you tortured your ex with your onslaughts. You're aggressive, and relentless. Obsessed. It's toxic stuff. No doubt you will attempt to turn this all back on me, but it's no matter. You've been expressing negativity for months here and it isn't likely to change, others here will simply move on. I've done so for the most part but watched this thread a couple days to see if anyone calls you out or if they just stand back. A moderator would be helpful but as it is, we just need to take it or leave it. Not a life-changer.
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Post by claire81 on Jul 21, 2021 17:42:47 GMT
Dullboat, sending you a hug. I think you deserve compassion, too.
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Post by dullboat123 on Jul 21, 2021 22:41:52 GMT
It may feel familiar not because of faulty traits inherent in everyone you interact with here, but because of your malignant, abusive communication style. Your communication is full of the characteristics of an abuser. The tactics you employ to attempt to silence the voices of those here that you have generalized as sick, incapable people include: Condescension: You're sarcastic, disdainful, and patronizing Circular nonsense: You suggest the "mature" tactic of name calling to deal with disagreement, and when I literally did exactly what you suggested you foolishly attempted to call me out on it, as if you forgot that you just suggesting doing this. Countering: You suggest that everything others contribute here is wrong, and that your generalizations are the only truth in the discussion (generalizations and blanket statements also being a verbal abuse tactic you employ) Criticism: You persistently employ harsh criticism in order to drive home your point, allowing no room for nuance nor alternative explanation, there is no deviation from your blame and shame method of communication It appears that in the face of your incivility, others here have gone to great lengths to remain civil, but behind the scenes the conversation is that you are suspected to be highly disordered. Most won't point you in the direction of considering a personality disorder in yourself because it could be seen as a way to amplify your behavior here instead of mediate it- mainly because you show a stunning lack of self awareness. That, and you turn everything into "There you go, that's an avoidant for you." That alone is a verbal abuse tactic- discounting everything, generalizing, trivializing, it's all there. At any rate, you've managed to erode the quality of the interactions forum with your continuous victim rants. In real life, as on the 'net, people tire of the person who continually nags, complains, attacks. There's little doubt in my mind that you tortured your ex with your onslaughts. You're aggressive, and relentless. Obsessed. It's toxic stuff. No doubt you will attempt to turn this all back on me, but it's no matter. You've been expressing negativity for months here and it isn't likely to change, others here will simply move on. I've done so for the most part but watched this thread a couple days to see if anyone calls you out or if they just stand back. A moderator would be helpful but as it is, we just need to take it or leave it. Not a life-changer. And why are you so triggered when what I said isn't about you at all? What I said so far is based on my personal experience, backed up by some other forum members and also in line with Jeb's findings from years of his research of avoidants being poor partners. If you really want to be critical, Jeb's description on avoidants is pretty generalizing.
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