dh
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Post by dh on Sept 14, 2016 17:40:34 GMT
Thanks all. That's what my therapist says too. (Well, he says that I might have an avoidant 'style,' but if I'm OK with that and it isn't causing me major life issues, it's not a 'disorder.') He also says that both things can be true - I may have DA tendencies, and I can also have real issues with my partner that could derail a relationship. It doesn't necessarily help that my partner sometimes says things like, "Maybe you're bipolar." At least I know I'm not bipolar. But, anyway, our only hope is if she finds a job and starts taking care of her own needs like she used to. Maybe 'Codependent No More' will give me some strategies.
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raco
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Post by raco on Sept 14, 2016 17:46:00 GMT
Looking back, I can see a pattern of being in a relationship and then suddenly needing to become a hermit in my life. I also don't know how helpful any of that will be, because I see my behavior as a method of coping, or protecting myself. I guess you are a dismissive-avoidant, whether your current girlfriend is nice or not. According to what you say, it is likely that you would feel the need to distance yourself from her even if she had a job and took care of her expenses alone. It doesn't mean that there are not some real reasons to break up with her that are not related to your avoidant attachment type, but I would think that both issues are not completely distinct from each other. I am not avoidant at all, and I could not imagine wanting to marry a woman and then dumping her because she's been unemployed for 3 months. Especially if I accepted that she quits her job to move in with me, which means that I knew in advance she would become unemployed. You don't say much about the attitude of your girlfriend, it seems unclear to me whether she's trying hard to find a job or not. If she thinks that after all, she doesn't need a job because you can pay for everything, then of course it's not fair. You should tell her about how you feel about the situation. If she doesn't care about what you feel, then obviously something is wrong with her. If she is really willing to find a job, then being patient for a while could lead to a stable situation. But it's likely that you would still feel the need to distance yourself from her. Which is a problem that could much harder to solve than this cigarette problem. It's really nice to see that you can genuinely care about her even though you're tempted to break up with her. Feeling guilty about breaking up shows that you care about how you treat others, something I wish I had seen in the avoidants I know or have known. |
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dh
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Post by dh on Sept 14, 2016 20:21:35 GMT
Hi Raco -
She is applying for jobs; but she's only had one interview all summer (and as a friend of mine in HR says, 'If you're not getting interviews, you're not applying for the right jobs.') My take on it is that she is applying for the dream jobs that she would like to have, in a different field than she's been working in; and she isn't willing to take a lesser position in the meantime just for gas & cigarette money. She and I talked about her applying for a job at a local supermarket, and she said she would, but she hasn't. An old college friend from out of state moved in with me a few years ago, and she had a full-time job within a couple of weeks, so I thought it would be easier. Three months isn't exactly the problem; it's that I can pretty easily picture this dragging on for several more months without any change. It's that cartons of cigarettes weren't in the bargain that I signed on for (although I knew she smoked, she has been saying for quite some time that she was going to quit). It's that I've been told 'you're supposed to take care of me.' It's that going to the library for a couple of hours to use the internet and applying for two jobs is sometimes all she can handle for the day. It's that she wastes money on stupid things that I would never waste money on ($70 in overdraft fees on a bank account this month - I've never paid an overdraft fee in my entire life) and I'm picking up the tab. It's that I feel like I'm just an ATM.
It's also that I used to have total control over my budget, and I lived the way I chose and spent (and saved) money in ways that pleased me; and now I go to work and make money which pays for things that I think are wasteful (for example, for the same $ it costs to insure her one vehicle for a year, I insure two pickup trucks and a motorcycle). And now at any moment, another person can say, 'Now you have to spend $ on this' and I pretty much have to do it (for example, the monthly charitable contribution she pledged to her college before moving in with me now comes out of my pocket). It feels to me a bit like indentured servitude to go to work and earn money, and to use that to pay someone else's expenses (although indentured servants at least got passage from Europe to America for their work). If my feelings are DA, then I feel like DA is a protection mechanism that will serve me well to avoid this kind of situation in the future.
And yet I can't quite bring myself to say these things to her; but if a certain amount of time goes by or I reach a certain amount spent, then I am going to have to.
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raco
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Post by raco on Sept 14, 2016 21:58:55 GMT
I see. She may indeed be taking things too lightly. You said your solution to any relationship problem is to break up, which is, as you know, a typical avoidant behavior. You may end up breaking up with her, and if that happens, maybe you will feel less guilty if this time, you first try to fix the problem by talking to your girlfriend. You say you can't bring yourself to say what's on your mind to her. Maybe she does not realize how much those issues bother you. Try to talk to her, and you will see if you're really just an ATM in her eyes. I know it's not easy, avoidants usually prefer to avoid conflict and to run away. Maybe that's why you're waiting for those issues to become really unbearable for you. But if you wait, I guess it will be even harder for you to handle this without running away.
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katy
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Post by katy on Sept 14, 2016 22:49:59 GMT
I'm not an avoidant and I would be very annoyed about the situation that you're in. I would not continue to pay for expenses that I have no ability to control. I have lots of thoughts and ideas. First, I think you need to decide if it's worth trying to make a go with this woman. It sounds as though you have gleaned some info about her which may make a long-term relationship impossible.
If you decide that it's over and you feel guilty and she has no savings, you could give her enough money to get moved back to where she came from so that she can get back to her previous life.
If you decide to try to make it work, I've got some ideas. Maybe one or more of them might seem relevant:
1. From everything you've said, she sounds like a very poor money manager. She's not a child if she has an adult daughter. To pick up and move, however far away, without a job, without adequate savings, and without very clear money arrangements with you sounds like very poor money management.
In my opinion you don't start making charitable donations until you have very adequate savings. And, if you have no job, you delay your charitable donations until you get a job.
It sounds as though you are a good money manager - why isn't she listening to you about how to manage her money better?
You may need to give her an allowance - that's the money per week or month that you feel is appropriate. If it's not enough, she'll have figure out how to manage. It's very true that people never change until it's too uncomfortable to stay where they are.
I think that poor money management is a life-long issue, so be prepared, if you stay with her, to have to make this a constant issue to be managed in your relationship.
2. She sounds as though she is throwing psychological labels at you as sort of a bullying technique. You've admitted enough to her about your insecurities that she's making you feel bad with psychological labels. That personally bothers me - I don't like people bullying other people.
3. I wonder if she is actually incompetent at looking for a job. Or, she may be in some kind of depressive rut where she doesn't know what to do. Her resume may be terrible or she may be unqualified for the jobs she is applying for.
Temporary agencies are often the best way to get good jobs - companies often test out a temporary employee before offering them a full time job.
You may need to be very directive. If you know somebody who is good with resumes, have them look at her resume and help her figure out what she should be doing and help her produce a good resume to support her job search. You could also hold her accountable that, each day, by the time you get home from work, she has applied to xyz temporary agency or to abc school system to be a substitute teacher. If she is just a little stuck and your nudging gets her up and out, things may get better. If she is very resistant and doesn't do anything to help herself, then you'll know that she's seeing you as a gravy train and your decision about a long-term relationship might change.
4. This is only sort of a joke - borrow the book Tightwad Gazette from the library and ask her to read it. See how she responds. Amy Dacyczyn, the author, has some savings tips and techniques, but her essential theme is that couples need to be on the same page to make a life for themselves and that spending money is one of the important ways that they need to agree and to work out compromises. That book covers many aspects of life and how to be economical - it will be interesting to see how she's willing to change and compromise.
You'll know after it works or doesn't work with her if you ever want to get involved with anybody else. If you decide to try another relationship, there are many women like Amy Dacyczyn and lots of other mature, thrifty women who are great money managers and collaborative equal partners. The trick is to very slowly assess somebody before getting too involved so that you're sure that you and she are on the same wave length.
Good luck. We're all here pulling for you to get this resolved one way or the other.
Best wishes,
Katy
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dh
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Post by dh on Sept 15, 2016 14:58:50 GMT
Thanks - I did pass her resume to my HR friend to take a look at over the weekend and see if he has any advice. I think it's hard for her because we're both in our 40s, and she has been working in health care but completed a BA in social science last year, so she's applying for positions in the social sciences. Could be some unproveable age discrimination; could be candidates with more experience in the field applying for the same jobs as her. But there's also that element where there are certain jobs that she just isn't willing to consider (like going back to the health care field), even temporarily. And yes, depression is a factor at this point, too.
From what I've seen since we began living together, yeah, money management is definitely not her thing, and it's something I excel at. I was upset when I got home last night and checked the mail that there was another overdraft notice on her account from the bank. (And my first reaction was, 'Crap; I have to pay this for her.') I've gotten the passwords to her other recurring bills so I can just log in and pay them. There was also several thousand dollars of back rent owed to her previous landlord that I assumed (and 40-ishK in student loans that I have not, although I will be making monthly payments starting this month).
I already know how she would respond to the Tightwad Gazette - she made a rambling Facebook post about how some "elites" (referring to me) force others to 'suffer neddlessly' because I don't set the thermostat as low as she'd like, and I don't like running the oven in the summer when we're trying to COOL the house, and I didn't know she was out of cigarettes one day and I didn't give her money before I left for work. She's a person who, instead of lighting a candle, has an electric candle warmer that melts the wax and releases the scent. Because, why light a candle like everybody else when you can pay the electric company to warm the candle for you? So, long term, I can't picture it working out, really.
It's rough right now, but I guess it could always be worse.
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dh
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Post by dh on Sept 15, 2016 15:04:33 GMT
And the thing that I'll add about only having one solution (breaking up) to relationship problems is ... it WORKS! My ex (I was married, a long time ago) used to say that I blamed her for all of my problems. But when she went away ... so did all of my problems.
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katy
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Post by katy on Sept 15, 2016 15:35:43 GMT
I happened to sign on and saw your post. Again, I'm not an expert, only a person who was married to a spendthrift first husband with a current thrifty husband who has spendthrift relatives who used to beg money from us. That ended when they claimed they couldn't pay their mortgage and we gave them money and the next thing we knew, she came home with trays of exotic sushi because "they deserved a treat." Especially with your girlfriend's hostile attitude on Facebook, I predict that it will not work out happily for you. She obviously doesn't have a clue how you're trying to live your life.
I am outraged at lots of what you've said - $40,000 in student loans and she's squandering money and also donating money to her college? And she probably hasn't got any money saved? And she thinks you owe it to her to support her?
If she does manage to get a job and has some income, you could always live like my brother and his wife. I'm not saying it's a happy marriage, but it's a compromise. They have totally separate money - to the point that when they go out to lunch, they each pay their own bill. Not a very happy marriage, but they both disapprove of the way the other one spends money so it sort of works.
BTW, if you get to that place where you're talking about splitting money, I wouldn't let her pay for part of your mortgage or she may have some legal claim to your house. I'd let her pay the electric bill if that's her biggest gripe - then she can all the a/c and candle warmers that she wants.
Good luck.
Katy
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katy
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Post by katy on Sept 15, 2016 15:42:44 GMT
While I was typing somebody came to the house, so I didn't see your second post. My truthful opinion is that you already know enough to know that this is a losing situation and that you need to figure out a good exit strategy. This woman and you are going to have money problems for the remainder of your relationship because she squanders money and is hostile to somebody who tries to be careful and thrifty.
Then, once she's gone and you get a chance to recover, you can figure out how you want to live the rest of your life. If you decide it's with someone, then it needs to be with a person who shares your essential values - loves animals, thrifty with money, ...
Katy
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raco
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Post by raco on Sept 15, 2016 16:45:11 GMT
And the thing that I'll add about only having one solution (breaking up) to relationship problems is ... it WORKS! My ex (I was married, a long time ago) used to say that I blamed her for all of my problems. But when she went away ... so did all of my problems. The electric candle warmer works, too. I'm not sure it means it's a good idea to use it. With this mindset, getting in a relationship doesn't make more sense than to use an electric candle warmer to get the scent of a candle. You're gonna have problems in any relationship. So you will break up every time. But you realized that. You probably have good reasons to break up with your girlfriend. But I think you can't have good reasons to run away without trying to fix issues by talking to your girlfriend. And to do that, you may first have to solve a problem that has nothing to do with your girlfriend, and that prevents you from talking to her. It's also possible that you're paying for way too many things to avoid conflict with her. Maybe you should just stop paying for those things instead of breaking up. If you break up, your girlfriend will be alone, with no job and no home. So I guess it's better for her to be only unemployed. It would probably motivate her a lot to find a job. |
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dh
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Post by dh on Sept 15, 2016 18:20:50 GMT
The electric candle warmer works, too. I'm not sure it means it's a good idea to use it. Touche'. |
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katy
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Post by katy on Sept 15, 2016 20:54:21 GMT
I'm sure there are lots of big picture issues like whether you're an avoidant or not and how to select a partner with whom your are compatible, but, in my book, the first thing to control is the financial hemorrhage. It seems as though you need to figure out what you're going to do with the woman in your house and all of her money problems.
Somehow you ended up there, in a tough situation. I don't know if you were naive and didn't ask enough questions or if she purposefully hid her financial mess, but she's there and something needs to be resolved before you are impoverished and totally frustrated.
I'm sure that this is difficult but it seems as though, as Raco says, you need to be very direct with her and lay out what your bottom line is. If you're convinced that you're not compatible with her (nobody would blame you if you made that decision, especially after the Facebook post which showed a very poor prognosis for her trying to understand you and no appreciation of your kindness) then you need to tell her what the exit plan is going to be. It's not fair, but you'll probably have to give her enough money to go wherever she is going to go and to get set up. Then your conscience will be clear and you'll always know that you did the right thing.
If you want to try to make it work with her, then you will need to clearly state what you will pay and for how long. If she seems to come to her senses, you and she can probably figure out a spending plan, that you're in charge of. You'll probably also be able to talk about a coherent job plan that gets her out of the house, doing something to earn some money. If she doesn't accept that things must be different, then you can describe the exit plan to her. I know I sound very hard-hearted but people who mismanage money are spending addicts and they need tough consequences.
This is also going to sound especially cruel, but if you do cut off the endless funds and she's alone in your house all day, I would be very sure that all of my financial accesses (check books, computer passwords, credit cards, etc.) were well secured. People who are addicts will resort to anything to get money. As an example, I have a friend who is a district attorney, whose husband was an alcoholic without a job. She thought that she would stop him from drinking by cutting off his funds. He found lots of money - at the first of the next month, the alcoholic husband collected the rent from my friend's rental apartments and instead of putting the money in the real estate bank account as he usually did, he squandered all of that month's rent payments on his habits.
I'm sure your counselor will also have some practical suggestions to get this figured out.
I also believe that people come into our lives to teach us a lesson. By the time this is resolved, it's going to be an expensive lesson, but I'm sure that you will come to learn what your values really are and you will know how to spot people who also have your values.
Best wishes,
Katy
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dh
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Post by dh on Sept 16, 2016 20:58:26 GMT
I think I have to ride it out a little longer; three months isn't enough time maybe to expect someone to find a job and get on their feet. I'm making an extra $400 a month now doing some extra work that is scheduled to end right after the holidays, so that's when financial pressure on me will really pick up. But it's been made perfectly clear to me that what she wants in a relationship is "security" - (her word) - meaning that she won't just 'live together' in my house without some guarantee that she won't be kicked out at some point (she wants some equity in a house) and that if we were married and I die first, she would like to inherit the house. So the element of me providing long-term financial stability is explicitly on the table, which quite honestly creeps me out a little. Anyway, it isn't something that is going to be resolved before the holidays, I imagine. I can afford to carry her that long.
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katy
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Post by katy on Sept 16, 2016 23:12:29 GMT
My first thought is that I'm glad you have a local counselor who can help you sort all of this out. Maybe the counselor can help both of you form a cohesive team so that you are both coming from the same place, with the same long-term goals.
From what you've revealed, I am concerned for you. You've presented yourself as a person of conscience, perhaps a little avoidant, willing to try to work things out, but who is pretty uncomfortable being confrontational. From what you have described, you're dealing with a woman who claims to be a social services expert (does that mean a psychology major?) who sounds pretty greedy and domineering with her demands for security as well as uncollaborative and very ungracious with her Facebook posts. From what you've described, she doesn't seem to have your or your household's best interests at heart - she seems more interested in what she wants.
If negotiations are not your comfort zone, you would think that she would have the training and motivation to begin to create a "family" partnership between you both. A partnership means that both of you talk about what your needs and concerns are and a solution is worked out that makes both people feel OK. For example, your concern is money and her not working. If she were a supportive team member, you both would come up with a solution that would make you feel better. It sounds as though she really doesn't care what your worries and concerns are, she wants it her way and she wants her name on your assets.
I'd really talk with your counselor about what a happy marriage is all about and how this woman will fit into a happy marriage with you. I hope in the next three months you'll be able to develop a team spirit or see the light and not get dragged into something against your better judgement that will not be happy for you in the long run. I too would be very creeped out by a person who only was interested in getting her name on my assets.
I hope that you get everything worked out in a way that you will be happy for a long time.
Katy
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dh
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Post by dh on Oct 4, 2016 16:16:04 GMT
Just checking back in. We've decided to commit to 6 months, and have made some changes in the house to try to facilitate coping better for me. I'm kind of coming back to a thought I had years ago, which is that maybe I have Asperger's. (Online tests, not terribly reliable, I know, suggest that it's a possibility.) I think maybe the stress of living with someone brings out my worst tendencies, which might be one reason I feel the need for solitude.
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