steve
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Post by steve on Apr 3, 2016 21:03:24 GMT
I was/am a Dismissive-Avoidant, now I think I'm simply Avoidant, since I no longer blame or dismiss my wife as being over-sensitive or over-emotional. It's of little consolation to her as I have a hard time accessing/expressing my emotions but we don't stress about my disability as much since we've come to this realization. I've seen the term "Earned Secure" and at this stage I'd say I'm an "Earned Avoidant", neither dismissive nor fearful.
From the outside, "Avoidant" appears to be a good label for me. Perhaps I'm just trying to avoid the label, "Avoidant", but it seems to me that I might be more concisely labeled as, "Bonding-Challenged". I don't consciously avoid bonding with my wife rather, I don't know how to bond with her. My old reactions to her attempts to force a deeper emotional connection with me would result in my pushing her away and blaming her for being frustrated, hurt and too emotional. I was unable to recognize the problem in myself therefore it must be her's. She is/was an Anxious-Preoccupied and I am/was Dismissive as opposed to Fearful -- I'd push back but not run away resulting in a long lasting but unsatisfactory marriage for both of us but we didn't know why.
I'm pretty sure I didn't bond with my parents properly, nothing traumatic, most likely from their lack of basic emotional skills and before I was consciously aware of anything. Since neither of them was erratic or missing, I have no fears of being abandoned. From my limited viewpoint, I had a perfect childhood, no bad memories, few memories at all when it comes to a relationship with my parents. Perhaps, Fearful-Avoidants are a bit further along the spectrum of being able to express their emotions since they become fearful when presented with a bonding opportunity. In my case, I don't adequately sense my feelings and simply push back to avoid something I don't know how to accomplish or don't subconsciously feel comfortable doing.
I've noted other's postings, being they secure or preoccupied, that they wonder how their partners could have gone on so long in their relationships without telling them of their past, hiding their childhoods, not admitting to their problems, lack of growing up and immaturity, etc.,. Therein lies the heart of the problem; Avoidants don't consciously realize that they have a problem, therefore they rationalize the problems as belonging to their partner's. It's taken me a very long time to realize and admit that I'm the problem, my wife has her issues with being preoccupied but I accentuate her issues instead of calming and supporting her as a more secure person might do. You can't in my estimation, blame Avoidants for our disabilities nor expect us to magically own up to it.
Most marriage counselors and psychotherapists are of no use in the case of Avoidants as they either haven't dealt with us individually or don't acknowledge our existence. An Avoidant would never willingly go to a therapist as we don't recognize that there's a problem. How will the psychotherapy field learn to help Avoidants if they never see us? Most therapist's cookbook approach is to bond with the patient and then get them to share their feelings. Guess what, the therapy relies on two things that are most challenging for the Avoidant, bonding and accessing our feelings. So where does this lead; umteen different therapist, lots of money, frustration and little to show for it.
Much of this portion of the website is devoted to the partners of Avoidants, I see no other comments from other Avoidants. That's the way of an Avoidant, we wouldn't look at this site other than to figure out what is wrong with our overly-emotional partner? But this begs the question; If ~25% of the population is Avoidant, as has been speculated and there's no successful treatment for our disability, is it wise to leave us wondering around oblivious to our condition and passing on our bonding issues to the next generation? Shouldn't the therapy community recognize such a widespread problem and stop treating all of our issues in the same cookbook approach? If so many of us have an undiagnosed problem, ruining countless relationships, shouldn't someone look into helping the disabled and not just advise people to either stay away from us or dump us if you're already in a relationship? Seems like we're all hiding our heads in the sand hoping this epidemic will go away. From the looks of it, it's getting worse.
I welcome comments or questions from which ever side of this issue you come from.
Steve
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katy
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Post by katy on Apr 4, 2016 0:41:56 GMT
Steve,
Thanks for your post. You encapsulated in one sentence what the literature on avoidants doesn't really make clear:
"My old reactions to her attempts to force a deeper emotional connection with me would result in my pushing her away and blaming her for being frustrated, hurt and too emotional."
In my case, after what seemed like a nice friendship, the rejection by the avoidant was accompanied by insults, blame, on-going hatred, defensiveness, and a refusal to discuss what happened or how we could work things out so that we'd both feel OK. For a while, I didn't understand what happened and I tried to figure out if I done something wrong. I finally reluctantly realized that I was never going to really know what happened. All I really knew was that it was obvious that he had totally rejected me and that I needed to move on.
The literature about avoidants discusses the rejection, but, not until your comment, did I realize that the insults and hatred are also part of the rejection.
Thanks for your post. You really helped to answer a very important question for me.
Best wishes in your journey.
Katy
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Post by Jeb Kinnison on Apr 4, 2016 4:58:14 GMT
Steve --
Thanks for the view from the dismissive side. You are exactly right -- and you are one of the few that realize how you react to a partner seeking intimacy comes out of your "disability," though I think that term is going too far. The dismissive stance is functional in many situations and causes problems when partnered with someone who requires more responsiveness; it's a disability in achieving a really close partnership, but those who don't actually want that can't be said to be disabled.
Since you do understand your own dynamics, you've been able to reduce the contention that makes both partners even more unhappy in this kind of pairing, which is good. At least you both understand that neither of you *intends* to hurt and disappoint the other. So your making it here to tell us about it is a sign of your enlightenment.
You sound like you know what your road will be. As for the therapy community, lack of understanding of attachment issues is still the rule, and few have the time or money to seek out the few who are expert in them. And even then, treatment tends to reduce problems related to avoidant tendencies, not eliminate them. You can change a little and find ways to handle things more satisfactorily, but your core emotional templates are resistant to change.
Best of luck and again, thanks.
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Post by Mary on Apr 4, 2016 13:54:33 GMT
Steve, I, too, am an avoidant and I commend you for getting married. I have not been able to hold on long enough to any relationship to get close to that point. I agree with a lot of what you say. I think it's a disability when it comes to close relationships, but not a disability in life. I think it has attributed to my career success.
From what I have found on the internet, it seems the advice is to just stay away from us. I don't think we are incapable of seeing our problem, but I have not had it explained to me in the past. I saw therapists that didn't help much. You can't talk about feelings you don't have and most therapists see this as an unwillingness to talk about it rather than an inability. Now that I am aware of the issue, I can discuss it and it helps others understand me. While I don't think I can change much, I have recently been able to find an understanding partner.
I am unable to access my emotions, but I am now able to verbalize that my partner is important to me. I make a lot of mistakes, but I do think that I will find more ways to cope and be less dependent on my old ways.
" it's a disability in achieving a really close partnership, but those who don't actually want that can't be said to be disabled."
I can't say that I agree with this statement. The reactions of an avoidant are so subconscious and their feeling are so buried that not wanting a close relationship is just a reaction/a way to cope, not a true reality.
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Post by Jeb Kinnison on Apr 4, 2016 20:45:24 GMT
"But you *should* want a close relationship." I have had people argue that my books come out of a point of view elevating a healthy, supportive partner relationship to the most important thing in life, something everyone should want and strive for. That is not my position -- I try to offer advice for those who *are* seeking that, but that doesn't mean people who are happy and functional without it should be thought disabled and flawed. It may be that most of those people would be even happier and thank us if we could lift the blockade on their positive feelings, but that is a) impossible and b) presumptuous. "It takes all kinds," and the avoidant's stance may allow them to achieve things that are good for everyone; many great scientists and explorers, for example, have been avoidant types, "bad family men."
So while I encourage avoidants who want to have happier close ties to try to change and adjust their thinking, that doesn't mean there is something wrong with being avoidant. If they are conscious of it and help others close to them understand it, it can be better all around.
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Post by Mary on Apr 4, 2016 21:42:26 GMT
Jeb, I definitely see and appreciate your point of view. I probably see it as a disability only because other people don't understand it and it has effected my life. Just as someone with a learning disability, people don't quite understand why they don't learn like others. They can have happy and productive lives yet it does effect their life, even if it's just one part. People don't understand why I don't have feelings like other people and I am seen as "mean" or "cold" and it's extremely difficult for other people to understand even if you explain it. Am I mean or do I just have the inability to feel what others feel? It means that you hurt people that you don't intend to and act in ways that even you don't understand. People talk about feelings and it's a foreign language. Yes, I am happy and functional, some would say successful, but there is a small part of life that I don't understand and never will. There may not be anything wrong with being avoidant, but it is an inability to do something that most people can.
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Post by mrcamper on Apr 7, 2016 11:13:23 GMT
"I have no fears of being abandoned."
Coukd you elaborate on that more?
And I'm a guy on the anxious side. Been married quite a while
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 8, 2016 15:00:58 GMT
"I have no fears of being abandoned." Could you elaborate on that more? And I'm a guy on the anxious side. Been married quite a while
I simply meant that my parents were always there, they never split up or separated and were stable but unemotional. It would seem that children that experienced separation or divorce of their parents might experience fears of being abandoned by their partners and therefore become anxious about their dismissive partners motives and intentions. Instead of the supporting and calming the anxious partner, an Avoidant will pull away which enhances the anxious partners fear of abandonment. Since I had a stable childhood, I don't fear that my partner will abandon me. My wife is anxious-preoccupied and has a difficult time in ending our relationship hoping that I will at some point grow up/mature to the point of sharing my feelings. I now realize that if she did leave, it would be due to my inability to bond with her sufficiently and allow myself to open up to her needs. I'm trying not to be dismissive and acknowledge her anxious nature but still have difficulty in accessing my own emotions. But the act of no longer dismissing her has allowed us to reach the point of being able to talk about each other's personality traits without me pulling away.
Hope I answered your question, if not, try again,
Steve
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Post by mrcamper on Apr 8, 2016 19:49:23 GMT
OK good answer. I just touched on that because maybe if I'm psycho analyzing too deeply that maybe there is a deep fear in there. Dunno.
I'd say what you're doing now and realizing is great progress. Good job on that. At the minimum maybe be sure you are doing the actions every day that warm her heart. If it's touch or talking or time together. Make sure that actions are there. Maybe asking how she's feeling. Even asking further for her to explain her answers even more.
Good luck to you both.
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jenn
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Post by jenn on Jul 6, 2016 2:14:30 GMT
Steve -- Thanks for the view from the dismissive side. You are exactly right -- and you are one of the few that realize how you react to a partner seeking intimacy comes out of your "disability," though I think that term is going too far. The dismissive stance is functional in many situations and causes problems when partnered with someone who requires more responsiveness; it's a disability in achieving a really close partnership, but those who don't actually want that can't be said to be disabled. Since you do understand your own dynamics, you've been able to reduce the contention that makes both partners even more unhappy in this kind of pairing, which is good. At least you both understand that neither of you *intends* to hurt and disappoint the other. So your making it here to tell us about it is a sign of your enlightenment. You sound like you know what your road will be. As for the therapy community, lack of understanding of attachment issues is still the rule, and few have the time or money to seek out the few who are expert in them. And even then, treatment tends to reduce problems related to avoidant tendencies, not eliminate them. You can change a little and find ways to handle things more satisfactorily, but your core emotional templates are resistant to change. Best of luck and again, thanks. |
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jenn
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Post by jenn on Jul 6, 2016 2:34:15 GMT
Steve,
Thank you for coming forward and sharing your story. My boyfriend is an AD he is 57, been married twice for two years both times. He's heen divorced now 12,years and has had countless girlfriends or just friends with benefits.. He would call them someone he dated not refer to them as his girlfriend.. We gave been together 2,years. Been living together for 1 1:2 years.. We are very compatible and enjoy so ending time together... However, he started using deacivstubg pulling away strategies last summer which I was so confused by.. I have a nursing background so I started to some research and stmbked across attachment styles... We haven't had ibtercourse since Feb 2015, and we haven't fooled around since March 2016.
I have been the one for most of our relationship who has insisted sex.. Very early on in our relationship he said we needed to dial it back, he never had sex in his wedding night with his second wife, he never told her he loves her and the first wife they had sex maybe once a month.... Then he will say to me we should be having it 3-4 times a week... But he doesn't seem interested at all... We had a open discussion about him using Viagra before our relationship.. Which he said really didn't work.. I said to him you font gave a problem getting an errctuin with me, you just aren't interested in sex.. And I don't know if it's me your not interested in or sex... He didn't answer and I also said u don't understand why you can have sex with someone you barely know and you can't with me... He didn't say anything... He said something is missing.. I asked him if there was something we needed to work on and he said he didn't think so.. I told him I didn't want to hold him back and he said i wasn't.. He's not interested in anyone else.. I also said to him two months ago, that he knows how I feel about him, but I have no idea how he feels about me.. He said that's just the way it is... Is he not capable? I live him with all my heart and I want to better understand how he feels and be supportive.. He is not abusive and I know he cares about me or else wouldn't he ask me to move out? I did try to fooli around with him 2,weeks ago.. U thought it would be better to ask him.. So I said as we are laying in bed one more do you want to fool around and he said no.. It hurt....
When he told me about 6,weeks ago something was missing, I started pulling away.. Meaning u stopped holding his arm at night while we later in bed watching TV, I stopped kissing him first thing in the morning snd when he hit home at night. I stopped calling him at lunch time... Do you think he even notices these changes and appreciates them? I do miss the physical touch of him... U want to hold just arm at night b/c we don't have any physical touching other than a hug in the morning and I kiss him on the cheek good by snd good night.. Why can't he kiss me on the lips anymore? Thanks for read for my note....
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Post by vtemt1976 on Aug 1, 2016 21:07:20 GMT
Jenn i am in the same situation. My boyfriend of 10 months rarely wants to be intimate and that is the hardest part foe me. I have found that he is addicted to porn which i have read is common for peopel with attachment disorders. I would love to hear from some of the avoidants how sexual intimacy is for them.
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Post by DH on Aug 16, 2016 15:11:44 GMT
Hi ...
I'm going to jump into the discussion to say that I recently learned about Dismissive Avoidant Attachment, and, sadly, the description fits me perfectly. I'm in a committed relationship, and I see myself making detachment behaviors. I've actually just begun counseling, and ordered "Avoidant: How to Love (or Leave) a Dismissive Partner" because I thought it might help me and my partner both understand what we're facing. Looking back, I can see a pattern of being in a relationship and then suddenly needing to become a hermit in my life. I also don't know how helpful any of that will be, because I see my behavior as a method of coping, or protecting myself.
I'm trying to resist my urges to cut and run, but there are also actual negatives to my present relationship for me (not just DA behavior on my part). I can intellectualize the situation; but I also think that I don't feel it the way others might. I just feel sad and depressed most of the time. We lived about 100 miles apart, so saw each other on weekends, until she moved in with me. In a perfect world, I could handle a relationship of two strong, independent people who each have their own space and choose to spend time together. But now I feel 'stuck' in this situation where I don't really get any alone time, and I have a partner who emphasizes that she would like a relationship (ie getting legally married) that would provide her with a level of economic security that I have reservations about (one of the benefits of being legally married, she has said, is that if I were to suddenly die, she would be able to remain in the house that I've been paying the mortgage on for 20 years. I really don't know where we go from here; right now we're kind of stuck. I have broken our engagement, but she doesn't really have options to move out, so we're kind of muddling through a live-in relationship that neither of us is completely happy with, and there's a lot of stress. I feel confused by how much of my thoughts are something that are hard-wired for me to be Avoidant, and how much is whether there are actual deal-breakers for me in this particular relationship.
To try to answer some of the questions others have asked about intimacy, I'm going to completely honest and say that some simple things (like hug and kiss your partner when you get home from work) simply don't occur to me, because I'm not wired to need that physical connection. With sex, I don't feel like I get the 'emotional' bond or experience that people say exists ... it seems much more like a biological function to me. I enjoy it, but it's difficult to let my guard down with the person who in other areas of my life I perceive as kind of a threat to things that I value highly.
Had I known about DA three years ago, I wouldn't have gotten her or myself into this situation. I don't want to go around hurting other people. But on the other hand, right now, I feel this incredible urge to put up defenses, because I know that I can rely on myself and that when I lived alone, I had more money and more time, and I value those things, too.
If you're wondering what it feels like to the DA person you're dealing with, it feels like I'm a battery that has been getting slowly drained over the course of a relationship. I full of energy and with complete control over my life - my strongest state. Then slowly little relationship demands creep in -- I say yes to the more expensive restaurant that I didn't really want to go to, I give up time doing X that I enjoy to do something the partner wants (or spend time working on/fixing something of hers instead of tending to my vegetable garden, etc.) and after a while I just feel like nobody (including me) is taking care of me, and the only tool that I have to change that is to go back to being fully independent and not having someone else influencing how I spend my time and money. It's a cycle where I think maybe a DA person has 'this much' they can give, and other people want more than the DA is comfortable giving, so we freak out.
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Post by Jo on Aug 16, 2016 17:45:13 GMT
Hi, thank you for this. It's really useful. I was particularly interested in your last paragraph. Your feelings / responses to your relationship can be true for many of us. As a fairly secure person, I have experienced what you have written to a certain degree, but have ended the relationship, as I know there might be something better out there. An anxious soul might hang in in there for much longer than they should. But my question is - what do you eventually do as DA? Does your battery eventually die, and you lose yourself entirely, or do you finish things in the end? I'm asking, because I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who is so unhappy. Thank you in advance.
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dh
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Post by dh on Aug 16, 2016 18:56:24 GMT
Hi Jo - Let me first say that the battery metaphor is just how I personally feel; I have no idea if that holds for others. I have also felt at times like a pendulum, where I'd go for a while without much social interaction at all, then if I started dating suddenly I'd get 5 consecutive weekends filled up with plans and I'd start saying 'no' to everything because I felt overwhelmed. It was either 'no social life' or 'too much social life' and I have had trouble finding the right balance.
What do I eventually do? Well, my first relationship in college ended at graduation; then a few months later I met a woman 11 years older than I, and we dated for quite a while, then got married. We were together for about 15 years. Then my dad died, and I was both depressed and having a mid-life crisis, and we divorced. I recall feeling then like being married to her was like I was living in a little box, and I didn't want to live in a little box anymore. Living on my own was great, and I was much happier. In the 10 years after the divorce, I've had several relationships. Two got to the stage where the woman was clear it was time to propose, or break up; when faced with those ultimatums, I chose the "or else." One woman moved into my house and it was a disaster; we were passive-aggressive with each other and she started sleeping in the guest room, then found a new place. Generally, I could find a fault with all of the women I dated that explained the breakup. This one wanted me to sell a house six months after I bought it; that one wanted me to take my rescue kitties back to the shelter to move in with her (she was allergic). (Those were the two who were thinking marriage, whom I did not propose to.) A couple of times I got overwhelmed and broke things off suddenly. One or two might have dumped me. I can see a pattern now that I didn't see before. If my battery gets too drained, I have been known to quit a relationship, which can feel liberating, getting all my time back and being able to recharge. I don't know if being an introvert is common to DAs, but I feel that I'm fairly introverted, in that dealing with people usually drains me, and I can envision a life for myself as basically a hermit.
Anyway, that leads to where I am now. I met my current partner on a dating web site, and things were good for a long time while we were daring long distance. We'd see each other on weekends, with plenty of 'free' weekends where I could just hang out at the house and do my projects. I woodwork, garden, etc. Guy stuff out in the workshop. She was clear with me that she wasn't going to move in unless we got legally married, and she is a great woman with a good heart, so I proposed. I could always envision some far off magical retirement together; but I couldn't picture the 15 or so years between now and then. The adjustment to sharing a house has been rough for me. I had been in the house 10 years before she moved in and am a bit set in my ways, so I'm not crazy about furniture being moved, etc. (She says I have too many 'rules.') It feels like there isn't enough space. Complicating matters is that she had to give up her job to move in with me, and hasn't yet found a job in my area, so I'm paying her expenses, buying all the groceries, utilities, etc. (and I had structured my life to keep my expenses as low as possible). I have always lived within a pretty rigid monthly budget, so I'm freaked out about the spending right now. I think there are some fiscal incompatibilities that would present a challenge to any couple, but at the same time I have to wonder if it's just convenient for me to use these as an excuse to put up defenses and distance myself. I honestly don't know if I'll be able to get over the hurdles I see in front of me and commit to marriage at some point. I know that if I don't, she will eventually go her own way (she has said this). I feel right now like I could do a certain amount (like living together, unmarried) but not the whole package of merging financial lives as well as living space.
And I do have this streak in me that questions whether I want to do as much therapy as it seems would be necessary to change myself, when I see some of my DA aspects as coping mechanisms or defenses that have actually served me pretty well in the past. Was I happier after getting divorced? Yes. Do I regret breaking up with any of the women I dated? Maybe just one, a little. But I wasn't ready to get married, and she wasn't willing to wait. (And she wanted me to put her name on my house and all my vehicles, which creeped me out, having had to buy my ex out of some family property that I had foolishly put her name on.) Maybe just becoming a hermit would be the better option for me at this point, vs. a ton of therapy? I don't know. I'm trying to figure all of this stuff out,so if anyone has some advice or experience that might be helpful I'm all ears.
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