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Post by cherrycola on Feb 7, 2022 19:30:09 GMT
I thought I would break this off from my healing thread as I feel I have processed that grief now. It has given me some good themes to explore in therapy.
Posting this on here right now is making me super anxious. Odd because you are all strangers yet I worry about what you think of me. I feel like I am going to be judged and feel shame that I am dating before I am completely healed. Yet logically I know that healing is a continuous process and no one is perfect, if I wait until I am healed I may never date. It's like omg, where we go again, another insecure attacher knowingly dating an insecure attacher, when I could be continuing to find someone more secure.
I am on a second date with someone who has brought up massive amounts of things to unpack. I was getting triggered like mad and I realized it was transference from my situationship two years ago. This guy, lets call him X. His texting style is infuriating. However he calls me, which is amazing, he is actually the first person to ever do so. I think the calls though may be inflating the amount of connection I feel for the # of dates we are on. I also rarely have rapport so quickly. Almost everyone I've dated before there have been awkward silences. That feeling like conversation is effortless and it just flows from topic to topic and it doesn't seem to matter what we talk about, we have similar experiences and get each other. Then I get afraid that, do I just like him because of our attachment issues? He is self identified AP and was the one who asked me my style. AP / FA seems to be a popular pairing. He has done so much work on himself. It seems too good? Like I didn't think this person existed. My counsellor insisted they did but I didn't believe her.
He has overshared a few times and then apologized. Though sometimes he says "I know this is oversharing" and chooses to do it is anyways, so not sure what to make of that? Maybe I should ask?
I became triggered when he invited me on a trip out of no where. My knee jerk was this man doesn't take me seriously, and I wanted to block him (transference from my previous situationship). I re-regulated, gently set a boundary, and asked for a call if he had time... He then triggered me further that he ignored that comment and changed the subject. The next day he called me and apologized for asking me that. That of course it was too much.
I'm having issues trusting myself. I don't know where the line is between under/over sharing, and how to form a healthy attachment with a slow escalation. But I don't want to be over boundaried and prevent him from knowing me. I also don't want to do the FA push/pull. I'm trying hard to just see him for who he is. That he may say something about himself but I need to see if his actions also line up. Maybe that is my fear, that he won't see me for who I am. That if I say the "wrong thing" he will get the wrong impression and "judge" me on it. I also don't want to see red flags everywhere, that he himself seems a bit anxious and I think his ability to respect my needs is more important then him acting impulsively (as long it doesn't move into controlling). So much of this probably just needs time and practice?
So yeah, trying to stay in my lane, and focus on me but not sure what things should be in the mutual lane and brought up with curiosity for discussion vs just waiting it out and observing? I was busy and not checking my phone, and he texted multiple times over a few hours to ask if I was free which I recognize as something I would have done before. So while this is a his thing, I could express I noticed it and see if he wants to articulate what he was feeling?
Being an FA with this duality sucks. When I am triggered DA it is so much easier to deal with because I am in my logical space and can think clearly, but when I am in this emotional anxious space it is so overwhelming.
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Post by alexandra on Feb 7, 2022 20:41:21 GMT
It's okay for you to try dating with awareness even if you're not "secure." If you're dating someone else with awareness or even someone secure, great. I would date on and off when I wasn't secure yet, and sometimes it would just be about checking in to see how it felt. If I was quickly super frustrated by a few dates, it wasn't time yet.
In this specific situation, I'd say if he's aware and in therapy, that could be okay. But it's only okay if he's not triggering you or if you are indeed able to set proper boundaries, which he then respects, when you feel he's out of line. Like when he asked you to go on a trip. That's a red flag for me about where he is in his process, but if you say something like, "that sounds fun to do at some point, but we've only been on a couple dates and I prefer to wait a few months until I'm exclusively dating someone to travel," and he doesn't push it or get passive aggressive or upset about it and doesn't keep asking you in spite of you saying to wait X amount of time, then that's fine.
Do not make him mind read. He will pick the most anxious way of assuming and interpreting you. This is the time to practice stating your needs. You have nothing to lose: either he respects your needs and you interact securely with each other and you internalize the experience of having needs being okay. OR he does get scared or ignores them or is turned off, and that's GREAT. Because it means you're not compatible at this time and you can confidently go on to the next person who may be a better match.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2022 20:57:23 GMT
cherrycola, I don't think it's possible to become secure without walking things out in the arena of dating and real life. Just as your experiencing, this will bring things to the surface to unpack, and doing that here and with a therapist is fantastic. I learned a LOT and grew a lot by being challenged by "dating" if you can call avoidant hiding out and being avoidant doing that lol. And then once I met my SO and began getting to know him, then dating, then relationship.... the whole process brought me where I am today and I couldn't have done it without trying, noticing, practicing how to be the healthier me.
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Post by cherrycola on Feb 7, 2022 21:19:17 GMT
It's okay for you to try dating with awareness even if you're not "secure." If you're dating someone else with awareness or even someone secure, great. I would date on and off when I wasn't secure yet, and sometimes it would just be about checking in to see how it felt. If I was quickly super frustrated by a few dates, it wasn't time yet. In this specific situation, I'd say if he's aware and in therapy, that could be okay. But it's only okay if he's not triggering you or if you are indeed able to set proper boundaries, which he then respects, when you feel he's out of line. Like when he asked you to go on a trip. That's a red flag for me about where he is in his process, but if you say something like, "that sounds fun to do at some point, but we've only been on a couple dates and I prefer to wait a few months until I'm exclusively dating someone to travel," and he doesn't push it or get passive aggressive or upset about it and doesn't keep asking you in spite of you saying to wait X amount of time, then that's fine. Do not make him mind read. He will pick the most anxious way of assuming and interpreting you. This is the time to practice stating your needs. You have nothing to lose: either he respects your needs and you interact securely with each other and you internalize the experience of having needs being okay. OR he does get scared or ignores them or is turned off, and that's GREAT. Because it means you're not compatible at this time and you can confidently go on to the next person who may be a better match. Thank you for the caring response. Yep, it screamed RED FLAG when I saw the text, after I calmed down and re-read it I could tell from context he was just got really excited. He 100% respected my boundary when I set it. He is impulsive and impatient, as someone with ADHD I get that, so I'm kind of just watching for if it crosses the line. There have been a few topics too where we start to go down a path and he's picked up that I'm uncomfortable sharing further and he backs off. Family is always such an awkward and touchy subject for me due to all the deaths. For an AP he acts very secure on the phone, but over text it is all over the place. The texting is a sore spot because my situation ship was all over the place, ghosting, coming back, push pull, push pull and I was so AP and wanting him so much and chased. So I know that is my wound and not his... I've read that if someone triggers you then it isn't the relationship for you... But do you think it is okay to say if someone is triggering me because I have some universal triggers that anyone can set off vs our dynamic then proceeding with caution is okay? Provided like you said I continue to set boundaries and he continues to respect them? I am very very sensitive to rejection during the first few weeks. Also the feeling of someone trying to control me, or feeling like they like me for sex but not for all my amazingness. He isn't clinging or being overbearing and I see him as an equal so that powerlessness feeling is definitely there and ramping up the anxiety. I am trying really hard to be clear, and communicating from a place of assertiveness. Why is it so freaking hard to tell someone "I am looking forward to seeing you again". It feels like giving so much of my power away. And to not do it in an insecure way to seek assurances but a, here is where I am at. I don't know if communicating needs is something that he has explored yet, but I recognize that is a him problem and not a me and am trying to not mind read him! Nothing worse then two people trying to mind read each other. Different things come to different people at different times. |
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Post by alexandra on Feb 7, 2022 23:48:42 GMT
My boyfriend mildly triggered me a couple times at the beginning (first few months) even though I was secure, but it was a universal projected trigger and not particularly reasonable of me. I recognized that and self-soothed until we could talk about it. Specifically, he disappeared for about a day in the middle of two conversations. In both those cases, I didn't know he wasn't feeling well and passed out, for way longer than I can sleep lol. It was 100% my projection from bad earlier dating experiences, and seemed out of character for him, but that early on I was still getting to know him. I recognized it was a nervous system overreaction and then observed how he responded and if he was otherwise consistent, which he is. He also was always open about communicating and didn't make me feel like he was going on the defensive or being judgemental if I raised an issue, always was well-intentioned if something bothered me and I'd misunderstood him, and always had making me happy on his priority list in how he approached stuff, nothing was petty or defensive or about control, it was about us as a team. He didn't flat out say that, but it was obvious, and once time passed and we built trust organically, I had no doubt about that. Aside from those two times that I got panicky based on my own insecurity and the relationship foundation not being built yet, he doesn't trigger me at all even when we're resolving conflict, which is pretty awesome. But we'd also both earned secure prior to meeting.
So I think if you're triggering yourself and he doesn't make you feel even more dysregulation when you deal with it, that's okay and work you are doing. And in general, if as you get to know each other better things tend towards being less and less triggering, that's also good. But this also depends on how he acts when he feels triggered and if he takes the appropriate amount of responsibility on his end to handle it.
Tl;dr, you need time to get to know him to see if things trend in a positive direction as you build trust, and leave it as the wrong dating situation for you if they're not doing that or you feel something is off during a lot of the time you spend together. If it ends up not working, it might be the pairing and it might be you're not entirely ready to date yet or the timing is mutually not right, and any one of those things is okay.
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Post by cherrycola on Feb 8, 2022 16:36:15 GMT
We had a great date. There was an intellectual connection there I very rarely find with people, but for most of the date it felt like it was overshadowing building the emotional connection. It was easier to talk about huge philosophical problems then what we do in our free time.
It is very clear he has a ways to go on his attachment work. Lots of passive communication. I found him doing what I do to people, only partly communicating so the context is lost. But it was reminding me to be more assertive in my communication! We would have a passive exchange and then I realized it and stepped up and was more clear about what I wanted. There was some minor mind reading/people pleasing on his part trying to guess what I wanted to some degree. Something to watch, but I think all newer things can have a small degree of that.
We talked about calls vs text, and I setup our next date before our date was over so there was no guessing for either of us. I also let him know I need consistency and congruency in my relationships.
He mentioned a few things about previous partners that just mad me sad. He seems really kind and caring, with such a low bar for how others treat him. In a way it just strengthens my compassion and love for myself. That I am precious and worthy of being treated well.
My avoidant definitely came out a bit near the end, we went to his place and it popped the bubble of this person is better then me. He instantly became a messy normal human. I didn't find myself judging it as harshly as the last guy I dated. It felt more adult and lived in then I am a man child.
Is it bad that I feel "safe" dating an AP? It's like, I know once they attach they are unlikely to leave me. So my FA loves that, I know the power is going to be tipped in my favor. It feels manipulative.
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Post by alexandra on Feb 8, 2022 20:05:48 GMT
Is it bad that I feel "safe" dating an AP? It's like, I know once they attach they are unlikely to leave me. So my FA loves that, I know the power is going to be tipped in my favor. It feels manipulative. This is a good thing to call yourself out on. Firstly, because it's not actually true that someone being AP will make them too devoted to leave. There's no assurance until you get to know someone's character over time that they'll be devoted to a partner and never cheat or leave. A really immature AP who can't communicate and doesn't feel appreciated may actually cheat seeking validation from elsewhere, then feel awful and everything gets even more screwed up. But secondly, the most likely scenario is they'll be far more likely to fall into codependency and quietly tolerate $hit until they protest passive aggressively, then explode or implode. But then you'll get turned off, feel smothered and like you can't meet their needs, and flip avoidant. So making assumptions about what their attachment to you will look like based on their attachment style is bad. Going into a relationship already thinking about it from a power dynamic perspective is bad. It's about more than feeling or being manipulative. It's about believing that because you're looking to have an illusion of control to make yourself feel better around something you can't control (another person). Fixing that aspect of emotional regulation is building up more trust in yourself as a whole person, rather than relying on your partner to "never leave." The way to a healthier relationship is about approaching a new person and relationship with an open mind, not projecting or assuming anything about them, just letting them tell you and show you who they are over time and deciding each time if you are interested in continuing to get to know them better and better (a next date and a next). Until you know them well enough to have a better idea of if you've been building a foundation of trust and of a relationship that makes you both happy. |
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Post by cherrycola on Feb 8, 2022 20:35:55 GMT
Is it bad that I feel "safe" dating an AP? It's like, I know once they attach they are unlikely to leave me. So my FA loves that, I know the power is going to be tipped in my favor. It feels manipulative. This is a good thing to call yourself out on. Firstly, because it's not actually true that someone being AP will make them too devoted to leave. There's no assurance until you get to know someone's character over time that they'll be devoted to a partner and never cheat or leave. A really immature AP who can't communicate and doesn't feel appreciated may actually cheat seeking validation from elsewhere, then feel awful and everything gets even more screwed up. But secondly, the most likely scenario is they'll be far more likely to fall into codependency and quietly tolerate $hit until they protest passive aggressively, then explode or implode. But then you'll get turned off, feel smothered and like you can't meet their needs, and flip avoidant. So making assumptions about what their attachment to you will look like based on their attachment style is bad. Going into a relationship already thinking about it from a power dynamic perspective is bad. It's about more than feeling or being manipulative. It's about believing that because you're looking to have an illusion of control to make yourself feel better around something you can't control (another person). Fixing that aspect of emotional regulation is building up more trust in yourself as a whole person, rather than relying on your partner to "never leave." The way to a healthier relationship is about approaching a new person and relationship with an open mind, not projecting or assuming anything about them, just letting them tell you and show you who they are over time and deciding each time if you are interested in continuing to get to know them better and better (a next date and a next). Until you know them well enough to have a better idea of if you've been building a foundation of trust and of a relationship that makes you both happy. Excellent as always, thank you for calling me out. Definitely some projection here. Definitely that control piece, which feels like manipulation to me even if it is forming at the subconscious level. I get it is my brain just trying to keep me safe, but once I notice that behavior I feel shame, and there is that mistrust of myself, because I never ever want to use that to hurt him or have him stay in a bad relationship with me because of his attachment. I picked up a theme of him staying in relationships even when being treated badly because he believed that was what love is. Loyalty. Then I have experiences with my past AP partner who was incapable of leaving. I definitely seeked validation outside that relationship because I couldn't communicate. No matter what happened he was always right back there, and it makes me feel bad looking back that I put him through that. Even after I tried to end it for good he was begging and pleading. It took him 6 months to start to break that attachment with me and realize that we were never going to work. You are right that I just need to take this a date at a time, and just continue to observe. I have no clue how our dynamic would play out, even with my ex things would be entirely different because I am entirely different. And this new man could be entirely different from his past. I am going to bring this up in counselling. Self esteem and self validation so I can trust myself is my current focus. Thank you for giving me a safe place to explore the not so pretty sides of me. I think projection trips me up a lot. I can catch when I am triggered and re-regulate/communicate but projection doesn't have that same emotional state for me so it is easier to miss. I need to get better at just watching and expressing curiosity towards their experience. |
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Post by cherrycola on Feb 9, 2022 22:15:55 GMT
So much fear today! But lets start with the positives, he called me last night. It was nice that he reached out, and he made a comment that of everyone he has dated I have my life together the most.
He wanted to talk about a youtube video I sent. He was SO excited to be learning so much about himself and went on and on about how he was dating all these avoidants and how AP he is, and how it all makes sense. My heart just sank after this conversation, it felt bad and disconnecting. These are the exact same conversations I've had with friends, but they feel different somehow.
I don't think he is using me as a therapist, because he does seem to want to have a dialogue. Maybe I feel resentful? Used? Unsure of how I fit in? Like I do not want to push him AT ALL to be where I am at, I want him to discover at his own pace, so all I can do is make comments here and there and provide him validation and empathy. He asked me for reading materials and wants to read my favorite book on how to have boundaries and communicate.
Maybe part of it is, these can be very vulnerable conversations and we are still getting to know each other, so I am feeling "restrained" when we talk about attachment. Normally I overshare out of anxiety to see if they are going to be completely shocked and run away... not doing that this time. I do also find myself afraid he is going to read about my attachment and go "no thanks" which I don't think is actually very likely, but you never know. He thought maybe he had done something wrong when he kissed me and I assured him no, that I was 100% okay with what happened it was just how tender he was with me, and I would let him know in the moment if I was uncomfortable with the physical intimacy. I don't feel like I can tell him I've been mistreated for so long that tenderness is foreign to me. That I've been raped more than once and am afraid that he will feel I have weird hang ups because of this. That I don't want to overshare and have him see me as weak because then men want to "fix" me and I am strong and do not need to be fixed.
I think I am also maybe feeling inadequate, I am usually that bubbly energetic one who gets super passionate around topics, but it takes me a little bit to get there with someone so he is showing up full of energy and I am having a hard time getting to that level. He also has a really amazing job that is so impressive and so foreign to me that I don't even know where to start to ask him questions to learn about it. I never ever saw myself dating someone like this.
I think I am also disappointed that he is not as far along as I had hoped. Once you know you are AP the next steps are to work on communication and boundaries and he hasn't started that work yet from the sounds of things. I think I had this fantasy of us being able to practice healthy communication and boundaries together. I still intend to take this slow, I am trying to re-regulate, process these feelings. Lots of great things coming out of the woodwork that were hiding. Still seeing him as a "whole" person with good and bad going on, no pedestal, no devaluing. Maybe it is just that he is proceeding at a healthy balanced pace and I've never had this before. My most recent ex chased me so hard I deactivated multiple times. Third/Fourth/Fifth dates are always the big hurdles for me where I need the absolute most reassurance that someone likes me.
Would it be fair to ask him how he feels attachment theory would apply to us?
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Post by alexandra on Feb 9, 2022 23:29:52 GMT
My opinion is, there's good things and not-enough-information things in here, and you are jumping much further ahead of yourself than you need to. I understand why you're doing that, and I've done it in the past as well. So I'm not calling YOU out for anything negative, just pointing out that it's happening so you can think about what you want to do.
The good news is, he's aware, he's got a therapist (and he's still currently going?), and he's motivated to figure stuff out since he responded to the information you sent him with excitement and not defensiveness. Though I'm a little surprised his therapist didn't go into any depth about romantic attachment dynamics.
The not enough info yet and we'll call neutral news is, he's AP and not as far along as you'd hoped, as far as you can tell and conscious work he's done (maybe he has done some of it and the therapist calls it something else though?). But that's okay, if he's still willing to INDEPENDENTLY do the work and it is in progress. Which means you shouldn't be jumping into discussing the attachment dynamics between you two yet in theory and psych yourself out. You should be getting to know him and seeing how he responds to stress or how you two deal with conflict when it organically comes up (not creating conflict to test him), if he's triggering you (versus universal triggers on your end), and figuring out what you have in common and if you even like him and if your day to day lives and wants are compatible. That's what the first couple months are more about.
I do not think you should tell him about your rapes and other terrible experiences yet. You need more time to build trust and get to know him and make sure he's actually a safe person to share this with. I'd think that is more like a 1-2 months in conversation if things are going well, perhaps sooner if you're going to be sexually intimate with him but think you may get triggered about it due to your past history and want him to be aware of it. Telling someone AP (who inherently will have lousy boundaries because that's just part of it) about your vulnerable trauma early is likely to create some false intimacy trauma-bonding. Because AP and FA both tend to rush. So, build the trust first, then share.
And the idea that you'll both work through your attachment issues together is fantasy. That's discussed in other threads. There's aspects you can do together and open communication is great, but making it more joint than individual opens up you turning each other into therapists and getting co-dependent. It's okay to talk about it but I wouldn't make it a central focus right now when you're trying to figure out if you even actually like each other and don't know each other yet.
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Post by seeking on Feb 9, 2022 23:51:20 GMT
How does this feel in your body? I'm asking because maybe it is not just a fear, but wisdom. If you think about it ... if someone is very eager to "fill a spot" and put you in it, then right - they are not really *seeing* you - they are projecting on to you and that's never pleasant. I'm not saying he is doing this. I don't know. But I've been here before, and doubted myself and looking back, in retrospect, this is exactly what was happening.... |
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Post by seeking on Feb 9, 2022 23:53:31 GMT
Being an FA with this duality sucks. When I am triggered DA it is so much easier to deal with because I am in my logical space and can think clearly, but when I am in this emotional anxious space it is so overwhelming. I've only so far read your post and had some thoughts so sharing FWIW - (haven't read the rest of the thread yet so disregard if not relevant) but DA/FA is a little bit of shut down, though right? So maybe it offers you a sense of "protection" - I wonder if you had real boundaries in place, you can feel that same sense of protection without having to shut down. And without having to flood. I guess the dance is to feel safe enough to be assertive - and when it's new, we try to stay in that pleasing mode..... Just some reflections. |
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Post by cherrycola on Feb 10, 2022 0:38:16 GMT
How does this feel in your body? I'm asking because maybe it is not just a fear, but wisdom. If you think about it ... if someone is very eager to "fill a spot" and put you in it, then right - they are not really *seeing* you - they are projecting on to you and that's never pleasant. I'm not saying he is doing this. I don't know. But I've been here before, and doubted myself and looking back, in retrospect, this is exactly what was happening.... Yeah, it does feel like he is projecting something onto me, but I can't tell what. He wants to settle down and have a family and I am a settled person. I have a very stable job / home / life. We did briefly talk about living alone during covid and he indicated this is the longest he has been single. I kept all my profiles up, I am keeping busy with friends and family and hobbies and we are only seeing each other once a week. It's just all that dang FA anxiety and of course my counsellor had to cancel our last session. |
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Post by cherrycola on Feb 10, 2022 0:52:48 GMT
My opinion is, there's good things and not-enough-information things in here, and you are jumping much further ahead of yourself than you need to. I understand why you're doing that, and I've done it in the past as well. So I'm not calling YOU out for anything negative, just pointing out that it's happening so you can think about what you want to do. The good news is, he's aware, he's got a therapist (and he's still currently going?), and he's motivated to figure stuff out since he responded to the information you sent him with excitement and not defensiveness. Though I'm a little surprised his therapist didn't go into any depth about romantic attachment dynamics. The not enough info yet and we'll call neutral news is, he's AP and not as far along as you'd hoped, as far as you can tell and conscious work he's done (maybe he has done some of it and the therapist calls it something else though?). But that's okay, if he's still willing to INDEPENDENTLY do the work and it is in progress. Which means you shouldn't be jumping into discussing the attachment dynamics between you two yet in theory and psych yourself out. You should be getting to know him and seeing how he responds to stress or how you two deal with conflict when it organically comes up (not creating conflict to test him), if he's triggering you (versus universal triggers on your end), and figuring out what you have in common and if you even like him and if your day to day lives and wants are compatible. That's what the first couple months are more about. I do not think you should tell him about your rapes and other terrible experiences yet. You need more time to build trust and get to know him and make sure he's actually a safe person to share this with. I'd think that is more like a 1-2 months in conversation if things are going well, perhaps sooner if you're going to be sexually intimate with him but think you may get triggered about it due to your past history and want him to be aware of it. Telling someone AP (who inherently will have lousy boundaries because that's just part of it) about your vulnerable trauma early is likely to create some false intimacy trauma-bonding. Because AP and FA both tend to rush. So, build the trust first, then share. And the idea that you'll both work through your attachment issues together is fantasy. That's discussed in other threads. There's aspects you can do together and open communication is great, but making it more joint than individual opens up you turning each other into therapists and getting co-dependent. It's okay to talk about it but I wouldn't make it a central focus right now when you're trying to figure out if you even actually like each other and don't know each other yet. Yep, my brain is spiraling. Did some journaling and talked to a friend but getting it all out here seems to help. Going to go for a run in a bit. Been slacking on the self care lately. On the same page about not telling him about any of those things, just fighting old programming to dump everything. Maybe some worry I have sent some mix messages re intimacy. I get excited and overly suggestive with my flirting. He did ask me a question that was trending too far in that direction and I clearly said that I hold those topics for once I know someone better, he respected that. That might be somewhere I need to set a firm boundary with him that until the topic is discussed in full he can just assume I am not going there yet and then see if he is okay with the flirting. I know what I need re safety to be able to have an intimate relationship with someone and I know logically if he can't wait to give me that safe space, he isn't the one for me. Definitely don't want to be his therapist and am trying to avoid that. He just keeps getting so dang excited and wants to talk about relationships and attachment and life, because no one else in his circle is working on these things. He overshares and my first instinct is to overshare right back, I end up giving a really high level response and then it feels incomplete. I did tell him I noticed he says oh I'm oversharing and then proceeds anyways, he said he just wants to get it all out there because other women have rejected him for these things. I think I need to improve my boundary and just not share back? Maybe some redirection to a more appropriate topic? I have my handy list of getting to know you / bonding questions I am going to pull out for our next date. I have a feeling he would be happy to work through that list with me. |
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Post by cherrycola on Feb 10, 2022 2:47:51 GMT
Well my counsellor is out for another week due to illness. I am resorting to the old trick of snapping a rubberband on my wrist everytime I ruminate and stress cleaning !
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