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Post by cherrycola on Feb 28, 2022 4:25:59 GMT
Thank you  I've just started inner child visualizations with my counsellor and it is amazing how powerful they are. Definitely need to do more visualizations to confront my mother and the things she did to me. So much suppressed anger that is really hard to access now. |
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Post by cherrycola on Mar 1, 2022 7:21:07 GMT
Went out on a date tonight that I really did not want to go on. He was just overly enthusiastic and was sending me huge texts so I was getting turned off. But he did seem like a good communicator and after last nights cancellation I decided to give it a go. He admitted to being nervous, and did talk a lot for the first part of the date. He was direct and clearly said he was going to cover the tab. We had some good conversations. He read my body language well. He brought up kids and my age, and was direct about his timeline. I saw some potential compatibility issues, I did not find him attractive but also he wasn't unattractive. There are some questions around activity levels and weight, but no red flags, only green. There was zero oversharing, nadda. He did not even mention an ex. He expressed clear interest in seeing me again but was really respectful that I could text him in a day or two with my decision. He was overall a super cheerful and happy person, in a really authentic way. I texted him once I got home and agreed to another date. He asked me for a day and time and said he has some ideas and will get back to me. alexandra, thank you for telling me to loosen my first date requirements. I picked tonights, and now he has obviously stepped up to plan the second date. I felt calm, respected and when I talked, I felt he genuinely enjoyed it. For some reason everything he said was super easy for me to ask follow-up questions about. Some men when they talk say a lot, yet I am left unable to form any addition questions over it. This may go no where but I left smiling AND knowing where I stood with this person and that means a lot to me. |
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Post by alexandra on Mar 1, 2022 9:42:56 GMT
Yay! I'm glad you had a good experience. And even more importantly, a different experience from the usual, so you can observe how it made YOU feel, in both positive and negative ways. Fingers crossed for you!
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Post by anne12 on Mar 1, 2022 13:28:03 GMT
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Post by annieb on Mar 2, 2022 14:57:27 GMT
I’m trying to see what I can contribute as a masculine energy neurodivergent female 🤪. I think my neurodivergence is about 80% trauma induced as I did not have any ADHD symptoms as a child and only started having them after significant trauma and stress in my early teens. I was officially diagnosed with ADHD in my thirties.
The masculine energy I would also say was from trauma and trying to regain/ maintain control of my life; and the pursuit of career/ financial independence certainly contributed to all that.
After I started therapy in my late thirties, I discovered a lot of my “feminine” traits but only really insofar that I stopped controlling things and letting chips fall where they may.
I still have difficulty (or I don’t even think about that) of a man providing for me in any way and it gives me anxiety when my new boyfriend (3 months of dating) wants to provide for me. But I’m working on it. There is this whole mistrust thing with me where I can’t imagine what it would all look like if he had to support me and if I would lose my independence in it. Definitely a masculine trait of mine. He’s paid for all our meals and outings with me contributing maybe 20-30% percent financially. This is my first relationship in my 42 years that’s like this.
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Post by cherrycola on Mar 3, 2022 5:09:05 GMT
I’m trying to see what I can contribute as a masculine energy neurodivergent female 🤪. I think my neurodivergence is about 80% trauma induced as I did not have any ADHD symptoms as a child and only started having them after significant trauma and stress in my early teens. I was officially diagnosed with ADHD in my thirties. The masculine energy I would also say was from trauma and trying to regain/ maintain control of my life; and the pursuit of career/ financial independence certainly contributed to all that. After I started therapy in my late thirties, I discovered a lot of my “feminine” traits but only really insofar that I stopped controlling things and letting chips fall where they may. I still have difficulty (or I don’t even think about that) of a man providing for me in any way and it gives me anxiety when my new boyfriend (3 months of dating) wants to provide for me. But I’m working on it. There is this whole mistrust thing with me where I can’t imagine what it would all look like if he had to support me and if I would lose my independence in it. Definitely a masculine trait of mine. He’s paid for all our meals and outings with me contributing maybe 20-30% percent financially. This is my first relationship in my 42 years that’s like this. Thanks for conmenting. I was first diagnosed at 5 but mine could have also been trauma as I was a non-verbal child and my sister said bad things were happening in the home all around me. I would say mine is also rooted in control. Which has only gotten worse rather then better as I've gone along. My first relationship I handed over my control. I liked having someone to take care of me and he liked doing it but it slowly crossed over to more and more controlling behaviors. Part of me keeps thinking I want that again, an assertive partner to just handle things but the more I think about it, the more it doesn't make sense to me. I'm dating men who are more passive and probably attracted to my strong traits and then causing conflict because I can't quite hand over control but I also want them to step up. It's a no win game for them. |
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Post by annieb on Mar 3, 2022 17:05:26 GMT
cherrycola it seems like control/ lack of control/ lose or rigid boundaries/ confidence and lack of; these are things that will always be part of dating and relationships for us. I had pretty much tabled dating for the last couple years and when I dated I found myself ruminating on ridiculous relationships that should have never gone past the first date. When my last relationship began we got off the wrong foot so many times it became comical. I did not expect him to stick around, but he has. We both had enough attraction for each other that it was worth it I suppose. I have to say that he is the one who seemingly struggles more with his self esteem than I do all things considering, and I find myself being “used” as a regulator often, but it seems to have mellowed out. I too have been in controlling/ abusive relationships, but I do not believe I would have stayed in them for as long as I did had I had all the therapy and knowledge I have now. I internalized a lot of the men’s issues and absorbed their projections vs now I could really care less about someone projecting something onto me. My new boyfriend seemed to do that a lot and I had no interest in entertaining any of it. And he really backed off on that the last couple weeks. I don’t know what to expect in the future, but I still want to see him and he still wants to see me. I don’t have any big plans for the future and I’m taking it day by day.
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Post by cherrycola on Mar 5, 2022 0:26:02 GMT
So couple updates. During my last few interactions with friends I took some moments to be mindful and observe our conversations. I don't find myself judging them in my head. There is no you should. I feel curious and open to their experiences. So this is something that I want to try to transition over to romantic relationships. I can see how once again I took my point of view and applied it to Mr. AP. I saw him going through this painful experience with his ex and projected all my thoughts and feelings on it. I tried to "fix" it because I was like I just went through this! I know what to do! I think to some degree I wasn't curious enough, both out of fear and because I assumed I already knew but also because I don't think he was open to me wanting to connect on that level. I think there is also some anxiety here, I get anxious and afraid to ask questions in case I get them wrong, and once I get spooked by any perceived disconnect or possible abandonment I get even more anxious and don't want to be wrong again. That blocks empathy since that can require you to clarify their experience until you understand it.
Mr. AP did finally provide me a reason for dropping off, but did not even acknowledge my text trying to clarify things. He spent the next 24 hours blowing up my phone. I got confused over something he wrote, tried to clarify, got a very over the top response back and ... poof. I know the right thing to do is probably end contact, but for now, I removed notifications from his texts. He seems more FA then AP to me at this point but either way emotionally unavailable. I do feel for him, but I am trying to care without sacrificing myself. I did spiral a bit that I wish I had been more myself with him, thinking of the ways I messed up but I know that when you have two healthy people you don't have to be perfect.
I find myself turned off from Mr. Communicator. He has done everything right, he is warm and expresses interest etc, yet my replies are sparse. I feel like I should be reaching out, asking questions, etc like I would anyone else but it feels overwhelming, like I know he'll reply almost instantly with MORE texts to reply to. Trying to figure out is it because I am not physically attracted or is my avoidance kicking in. Or maybe I am just super busy this week and this is what I need. Texting for me is links and jokes and light banter and his texts are just WALLS and require far too much thinking. I did already express to him on our last date that I wasn't much for long texts, and he seemed fine with it, so I need to just trust that.
I am chatting with a few other men, and trying to be myself and authentic. Been making a real effort to communicate clearly and fully. But also pushing myself out onto the ledge a tiny bit to be maybe a bit warmer and be the first one to text sometimes.
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Post by anne12 on Mar 6, 2022 13:19:38 GMT
annieb I was just thinking about what you wrote, and I was also thinking about myself, My parents relationship with money and My ancestors relationship. We can sometimes inherint something that is not even ours. “I can’t imagine what it would all look like if he had to support me and if I would lose my independence in it..” jebkinnisonforum.com/thread/2891/money-arcetypes-attatchmentstyles-gender-ectThis can be worked on in therapy with top down and button up techniques - I just Saw this technique being demonstrated with a woman who had a tendencie to Fall for men who dident wanted to share with her. She was a single mother, her own mother had been a single mother ect. They also worked with the light (Chris Griscom) Through therapy (top down, button up ect.) she released some of the energy she had picked up from her own mother and her mothers mother ect. She recently found a new man who wants to share with her…
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Post by cherrycola on Mar 7, 2022 4:21:17 GMT
Date tonight was bad. Bad bad bad. He is super astute at reading my body language and kept things up and asking about them. He did say I seemed to have something big weighing on me(Mr. AP), but didn't pry. We also just couldn't get any conversation going, I tried to pick topics he had mentioned before, like cars, but he just kept letting it drop. He asked me out AGAIN and I sent him a really kind no thanks and he wished me luck.
In other news, Mr. AP texted me to go for lunch Saturday, so I went. The first half went GREAT. Laughing, flirting. When I look into his eyes I just get lost, which is something I haven't felt in forever. I realized he does this thing where he says "next time we go out, or next time we come here" and it REALLY throws me because ... is there a next time? As a joke on our 2nd date he said a terrible song playing could be "our song".
We went for a walk and then things turned. He opened up about things he had been afraid to talk about because he didn't want to scare me off. Mainly, he thought he wanted to give up poly relationships and now isn't sure. It felt like more baggage with the ex. It didn't actually sound about mono/poly, he wants that exact dynamic they had and you can't just re-create that no matter how many other people you date.
I didn't comment much, didn't feel fair as it would be mainly self serving. I actually have explored being poly before, but decided at the time it was too complicated. I am feeling he isn't a good enough communicator. I have also seen too many examples where people just turn to an open relationship because they don't know how to fix the one they have.
We held hands and continued to talk for a bit, but then I think we both got stuck in our heads and sat in silence. We started to just walk back to my car and he didn't say hey lets continue the night or suggest a change in venue and I was overwhelmed so I just.. kissed him goodnight and turned to go and he stopped me and hugged me and asked me what was wrong. He apologized that things were just complicated and confusing, I apologized for being awkward, said there was just a lot on my mind and hugged him again and left.
I texted him a few minutes later that I was sorry, that I was feeling conflicted because I wanted to continue the night but also felt it was the right time to say goodnight and I enjoy his company... I sent him a follow up text a few hours later that life is messy and complicated and I would like to see him again... crickets. With the right partner, there are compromises here I would be fine with, but ... things are just stacking up poorly.
But all of this is teaching me, you can't control life, and the more relaxed I get about that, the easier things go for me. Trying to find a man to shove in my rigid box of expectations is never going to work. At least I have grown, with M a month in I found a laundry list of things that bothered me, or that I wanted to change and I dwelled on them. I'm not finding those here, I see imperfections but I also just see him... The only thing I obviously can't deal with is his baggage around his ex.
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Post by cherrycola on Mar 10, 2022 17:23:51 GMT
I've been trying to unpack this thought and just can't. I have grown to be an overly independent person. I own a house in a high cost of living city, most single people rent or maybe own an apartment.
When I was dating M he owned a condo and wanted me to move in with him, and it made me feel unsafe. I did not want to sell my house, plus it would have made my commute longer and I didn't want to change jobs. I also, felt uneasy simply about living together.
When Mr. AP mentioned moving, my brain went sure! There was zero defensiveness or walls that went up. Find a new job? Sure! Be able to compromise and find a middle ground for what we both want? Sure! It was this feeling of like, I can move anywhere with him and we will be okay. Living with him? Sure! I didn't realize this until someone who I've been chatting with for a few weeks, mentioned long term maybe move a few hours away and those same walls came up, INSTANTLY.
I haven't felt this way since I was 18 and dating my future husband long distance. We had been seeing each other for 2 years and there was zero fear. I quit my job, took only what fit in my car and moved 6 hours away.
So here I am confused, I just thought this overly independent and stubborn person was who I am. Why did Mr. AP trigger this in me? This was before he started to pull away so I didn't feel anxious yet. I've had infatuations and an intense situationship before and I've never experienced this. I feel like it must be tied into my attachment but if so, you think the situationship which lasted much longer would have also triggered it. Or have I really just not dated a single man that I really liked since my ex? Or are they just similar architypes? Same attachment type, same co-dependent history. Am I transferring my feelings for my ex over this new man?
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Post by alexandra on Mar 10, 2022 19:02:25 GMT
I think you're slightly overthinking around the men. I doubt you're projecting your ex specifically, but you may be projecting the archetype. Like, maybe AP men make you feel "safe" in that you don't have doubts they'd leave you -- even though you may have other, different issues. In that way you feel some power / control and don't make your walls your go-to defense mechanism. But, you're also supposed to not have major doubts and go to defense mechanisms in good relationships because you feel secure enough in yourself and the partner doesn't trigger you. When your instincts throw up walls, it either means you're not feeling secure enough on your own side of things and have more work to do to feel whole (this means balanced between feeling safe with independence and interdependence, not fiercely independent only for its own sake) OR the guy is giving you a reason to feel you can't trust him. So the analysis should be, is it me or him or both together that's causing my concerns? But you need to start from the you introspection... are your fears founded in something tangible that you can explain and verbalize, or are you having a defense mechanism reaction out of avoidance and shut down? Ultimately, your independence is about wanting to protect your stability, and that's okay. But it's still about exploring where the healthy boundaries are in that and if someone else has given you consistency and reason to trust them over time.
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Post by cherrycola on Mar 12, 2022 8:49:26 GMT
I don't think it is AP men in general, but hard to say. My counsellor felt part of it was transference but also that he made me feel incredibly safe and secure. That maybe he was just calm and open and I responded to that.
There are some details I left out to keep some privacy and on speaking with my counsellor she is worried about him manipulating me. So I directly asked him to discuss things with me. He is either going to rise to the occasion or ghost. My money is on ghosting but either way I will have my answer. I always try to remember now "the relationship you want is on the other side of the conversation you would rather not have"
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Post by cherrycola on Mar 18, 2022 22:13:01 GMT
WHY DO I DO THIS? (I know why, I have had two counselling sessions but I need to vent) Mr. AP got more consistent again and wanted to see me, I jumped at this. He brought up how I always say no to him, which was surprising, because I didn't think I did... I told him I didn't realize it. I thought that was the end of it... He admitted he was having a hard time trusting me because of his past.
We talked about grabbing food so I'm sitting on his couch waiting for him to get ready and he blows up at me about not picking a restaurant, and how I always say no, how think I want an assertive man but I obviously don't, and then brought up a weird exchange on our 2nd date.
I was super surprised that I no longer get triggered by anger, so I went over and hugged him, his heart was racing and he was triggered, he calmed down and apologized. I tried to talk about it but he just again said it wasn't about me and told me about family drama and lack of sleep etc... We had lunch, was pleasant enough but I could tell he was ruminating and just not being present. He once again said he didn't know what to do relationship wise, that he wants poly but that it always blew up so quickly.
I tried to make plans for this weekend he ignored me. Said something else once via text and then nothing.
I am really examining how I fell into my same insecure passive communication style and we are now stuck in a dysfunctional dynamic of trust issues. These mixed messages really did a number on me and I keep finding myself giving away my power. I keep putting him back on that pedestal. So many half conversations never finished, with things left unclear. It's like the thing I should be saying out loud, I say it in my head, I can't get the words out, and then the moment passes. Now it feels like we are in an impossible place to try to start communicating from. My counsellor was very clear that trying to understand him or offer him compassion here is the wrong thing, and he'll probably take any attempt at trying to communicate or probe into his experience as a confrontation. She encouraged me that if I choose to continue down this path, I need to set a very clear and direct boundary with him and then just pull back. Put the ball in his court to show up or leave. He said he wants to do the work but he isn't and he probably isn't in a place to do it with everything else going on in his life. I am a bit trapped by feeling like I need to prove to myself that I can do this, I can communicate securely with this person, but really that is the insecure thing I think? A secure person would cut their loses and move on.
15 minutes after counselling, when I had just been talking about him. My situationship pops back up out of no where!! It's been nearly a year since I've heard from him and I haven't seen him since mid 2020. I didn't even have his number saved. I have long ago moved on, but... a part of me is still hooked.
I am proud of myself here. I was honest with him that he makes me feel bad with how he chooses to make everything about physical intimacy. He of course ignored questions. I didn't make them optional. We had probably the most honest chat we have ever had. Ultimately, I know why he is back, it's always the same thing. I know he will chase me until he has me, we might go on one date then he will get overwhelmed and he will disappear again. But it was nice to have this exchange with him.
Him and Mr. AP are the same dynamic, just a different person.
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Post by alexandra on Mar 19, 2022 0:00:22 GMT
It doesn't really change much but maybe will explain how you keep finding yourself here again... I think Mr. AP is FA. And FA-FA generally looks like AP-DA except the partners keep swapping sides. So sometimes things feel better or different because it's not the typical AP-FA (pushing the FA to be avoidant) always difficult and just out of reach. Sometimes it feels like it works, and sometimes it doesn't, as you come together to meet in the middle and then both split off into anxious vs. avoidant sides again.
I agree with what your therapist said about choosing to try to make this work. It only happens with you keeping good boundaries, being concise, direct, and to the point with him in communication, and deciding to walk away if you're doing this for a while and still find that you're not getting your needs met. You should not expect him to act securely, so you need to keep healthy boundaries for yourself and then decide if the situation is right for you.
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I've just started inner child visualizations with my counsellor and it is amazing how powerful they are. 
