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Post by anne12 on Nov 28, 2022 7:52:58 GMT
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Post by duklaprague on Nov 28, 2022 10:28:40 GMT
Something it took me a long time to learn when I was still AP: it doesn't matter how good the good times are in a relationship or how many boxes the other person checks off if they cannot also get through the bad times with you. How you, as a couple, handle stress together (either stress on only one or both of you), resolve conflict, fight, argue, and get through tough times is often more important than how well you feel you connect when enjoying the good times together. This is because a healthy, enduring, and sustainable relationship needs a foundation of trust and working together as a team. If your partner responds to stress by turning away from you or withdrawing totally, it can very well have absolutely nothing to do with you and not be your fault. But it does mean it's a good-times-only relationship that on some level lacks trust, communication, intimacy, and vulnerability. Life will always have stress and problems, and she's now shown you how she will leave you whenever any come up. This is very important information for you to have. You can look back on the relationship fondly and keep the good memories while having grace for yourself: you deserve a partner who will tackle life's good times and bad times together with you without giving you reason to worry that one thing going wrong is the end. Relationships should be stable, but if one or both partners do not have the capacity to stay together when unrelated stress and issues are not going as expected and run off instead, then they're not ready to be a good, mature partner. The closure is understanding the big picture, that good times can be good but the person is still a bad match, and letting them go with love so you can be emotionally available and open to surround yourself with supportive people who make your life fuller without emotionally draining you. The closure is you being able to fully process your emotions on your own, and to some extent that may look like going through the 5 stages of grief... but needing to experience all of them until you reach acceptance. That doesn't mean dating again before you're ready or have mourned the relationship, it means leaning into your support network of friends and family while reflecting on yourself. What kind of partner are you looking for? Are you attracted to emotionally available people or do you tend to go for unavailable or unstable people where the relationship only works some of the time instead of all the time? Are there gaps on your end that you may need to attend to, such as having an insecure attachment style yourself? Do you have a fear of abandonment or engulfment that gets in the way of building healthy romantic partnerships? Do romantic relationships seem to recreate and bring up older dynamics you've experience with other family members, such as parents in your childhood? This is where the closure on any past, current, and future relationships that don't quite work and leave you confused or in pain is eventually is found, not through other people. Thank you for this. Again, it’s the sort of thing I need to hear. It’s very true what you say about both people needing to get through bad stuff. The irony is that in the last there have been a couple of little incidents I won’t go into where she took a (small) step back, thought about things, and reached back out to me pretty much straight away. So she had always struck me as someone who didn’t self sabotage as a knee jerk reaction to something. I kinda liked that she could be quite pragmatic and thoughtful about things. So in my head I suppose I have a hope that although this is obviously a much bigger step back, that that behaviour might yet play out again. And I suppose although you are right about both people getting through stuff, as this is the first time this has played out like this, there is a part of me that would like to think if (and it’s a very big if right now, I know that) we get a chance to talk again, we might be able to talk about exactly that. To look back at what happened, why it happened, whether or not it needed to play out like that, and should we decide to move forwards in some form, what steps could each of us take to reduce the chance of that playing out the same in the future. I do not want to get caught in a cycle of this happening repeatedly, but after three years of emotional investment from both of us, and given that we haven’t fallen out, and there seemed to still be feelings on both sides, those three years make it worth trying once at least.
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Post by duklaprague on Nov 28, 2022 10:33:16 GMT
Thank you for this. I guess we had the intimacy and passion, but not the commitment. It’s a bit frustrating as neither of us were looking for full on conmitment, but I think she picked up on a couple if things that made her fearful side worry that that might be the direction of travel.
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Post by anne12 on Nov 28, 2022 10:38:28 GMT
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Post by duklaprague on Nov 28, 2022 11:35:45 GMT
This is something we talked about when we last saw each other. I told her that I had learnt that my sending supportive messages when she was feeling stressed / overwhelmed was counter productive. I explained that I realised that by doing that I just became something else that needed her attention when she was already at capacity. She seemed to get that and appreciate me realising that. But she went in to say that she wouldn’t want me to just be walking on eggshells with her or change who I am. I didn’t want to push back at the time, because it felt important for her to have that space to do most of the talking and be heard. (Because her marriage ended because she felt she had no voice, was unheard etc, and which may have been part of any childhood wounding) But if we do get the chance to talk some more, I would try to convey that I wouldn’t be walking on eggshells… because it’s not about a need on my part to say particular things…. My aim would simply be to ‘read the room’ as well as possible, and say the most appropriate things at any given time.
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Post by introvert on Nov 28, 2022 16:13:55 GMT
This is something we talked about when we last saw each other. I told her that I had learnt that my sending supportive messages when she was feeling stressed / overwhelmed was counter productive. I explained that I realised that by doing that I just became something else that needed her attention when she was already at capacity. She seemed to get that and appreciate me realising that. But she went in to say that she wouldn’t want me to just be walking on eggshells with her or change who I am. I didn’t want to push back at the time, because it felt important for her to have that space to do most of the talking and be heard. (Because her marriage ended because she felt she had no voice, was unheard etc, and which may have been part of any childhood wounding) But if we do get the chance to talk some more, I would try to convey that I wouldn’t be walking on eggshells… because it’s not about a need on my part to say particular things…. My aim would simply be to ‘read the room’ as well as possible, and say the most appropriate things at any given time. You sound prepared to over-function. I get it, you aren't as ready to break up as she is and it hurts, you're looking for a way to salvage this but has she offered reconciliation? And what about your needs? Has she expressed any desire to heal to the point of being able able meet your needs without you having to constantly read the room to meet hers? Keel up the good work in therapy, and try to focus on understanding your own needs and wounding if you can. That's where true relarionshil success lies- first take care of your own internal healing.
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Post by tnr9 on Nov 28, 2022 16:53:27 GMT
This is something we talked about when we last saw each other. I told her that I had learnt that my sending supportive messages when she was feeling stressed / overwhelmed was counter productive. I explained that I realised that by doing that I just became something else that needed her attention when she was already at capacity. She seemed to get that and appreciate me realising that. But she went in to say that she wouldn’t want me to just be walking on eggshells with her or change who I am. I didn’t want to push back at the time, because it felt important for her to have that space to do most of the talking and be heard. (Because her marriage ended because she felt she had no voice, was unheard etc, and which may have been part of any childhood wounding) But if we do get the chance to talk some more, I would try to convey that I wouldn’t be walking on eggshells… because it’s not about a need on my part to say particular things…. My aim would simply be to ‘read the room’ as well as possible, and say the most appropriate things at any given time. One thing that I have seen happen is that the partner says…look, I see you struggling…walking on eggshells, trying to bend over backwards for me…and I do not want you to do that….and then the person who is on these boards…takes that as something other then what it is meant to be. I think her words are accurate…she sees how you both have been struggling and she was giving you an out, but I have seen people interpret those messages as a request to try harder. Knowing more about attachment theory will not magically change the dynamics. It might allow some understanding…but in the end…if 2 people are not growing individually…the old dynamic continues. I understand it is hard to let go of an investment…especially one which appears to have a kind of fairy tale fantasy about it. But the reason you can’t go back to the beginning is that in the beginning…it was new and you both were still learning about each other and could project all kinds of fantasy aspects on each other….now you are both known entities to each other…..and reality has a way of bursting fantasies and insecurities begin to come through….and the dance begins. All you can do is to work on yourself…not for her…but for you.
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Post by duklaprague on Nov 28, 2022 21:53:32 GMT
This is something we talked about when we last saw each other. I told her that I had learnt that my sending supportive messages when she was feeling stressed / overwhelmed was counter productive. I explained that I realised that by doing that I just became something else that needed her attention when she was already at capacity. She seemed to get that and appreciate me realising that. But she went in to say that she wouldn’t want me to just be walking on eggshells with her or change who I am. I didn’t want to push back at the time, because it felt important for her to have that space to do most of the talking and be heard. (Because her marriage ended because she felt she had no voice, was unheard etc, and which may have been part of any childhood wounding) But if we do get the chance to talk some more, I would try to convey that I wouldn’t be walking on eggshells… because it’s not about a need on my part to say particular things…. My aim would simply be to ‘read the room’ as well as possible, and say the most appropriate things at any given time. You sound prepared to over-function. I get it, you aren't as ready to break up as she is and it hurts, you're looking for a way to salvage this but has she offered reconciliation? And what about your needs? Has she expressed any desire to heal to the point of being able able meet your needs without you having to constantly read the room to meet hers? Keel up the good work in therapy, and try to focus on understanding your own needs and wounding if you can. That's where true relarionshil success lies- first take care of your own internal healing. I will preface everything with a recognition that, of course, there is an element of me seeing what I want to see. But trying nonetheless, and however naively, trying to retain a degree of objectivity. So on the subject of reconciliation… I would say we haven’t had an opportunity to discuss that yet. And also I would say the ‘reconciliation’ might be the wrong word, as that implies a falling out, when there wasn’t anything like that. There was all the usual intimacy and passionate sex days before all this happened. We don’t live together, so there was no bickering or walking on eggshells. There had been no period after discussing some of this stuff for either of us to establish that it’s not working. We are doing the space/time apart thing. It’s been a month now, so at the point where I am thinking about reaching out in as neutral a way as possible. It may be that that is met with a final goodbye. Or, it may be met with an opportunity to talk some more and see how we both feel about things now. At which point it would be my hope that we are able to talk openly about things like needs and boundaries.
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Post by anne12 on Nov 29, 2022 6:27:33 GMT
Fa and stress (tips from an attatcment/se therapist)
If your partner could be under a lot of stress and stops the relationship out of nowhere: Find out if there are many things happening in your partners life, so it's clear if your partners thoughts fly around on everything else. For example, a new apartment, a new job and a life as a student after some years of sabbath.
Right now, your partners behavior is not normal, but you nterpret it as a natural stage and do not know if you should let your partner push you away and sometimes hurt you every time, but support your partners situation right now and hope for a few days / weeks a normal level again?
Does your partner ends up feeling sorry for her/his behavior and is willing to fight for it?
Solution: Keep on having the dialogue with your partner. Remind your partner, that there is so much happening in her/his life right now, that it might be overwhelming for her/him.
Investigate what kind of support, that overwhelmed part of your partner needs
Remember - If you have too much threat going on, you'll lose the part of your brain that's actually interested in connection, intimacy, love, authenticity, and vulnerability
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Post by duklaprague on Nov 29, 2022 7:00:48 GMT
Fa and stress (tips from an attatcment/se therapist) If your partner could be under a lot of stress and stops the relationship out of nowhere: Find out if there are many things happening in your partners life, so it's clear if your partners thoughts fly around on everything else. For example, a new apartment, a new job and a life as a student after some years of sabbath. Right now, your partners behavior is not normal, but you nterpret it as a natural stage and do not know if you should let your partner push you away and sometimes hurt you every time, but support your partners situation right now and hope for a few days / weeks a normal level again? Does your partner ends up feeling sorry for her/his behavior and is willing to fight for it? Solution: Keep on having the dialogue with your partner. Remind your partner, that there is so much happening in her/his life right now, that it might be overwhelming for her/him. Investigate what kind of support, that overwhelmed part of your partner needs Remember - If you have too much threat going on, you'll lose the part of your brain that's actually interested in connection, intimacy, love, authenticity, and vulnerability In answer to the bit about stress, I can say that she does suffer from anxiety. And yes, I know that in September she had a lot of stuff going on that was stressing her out and exacerbating her anxiety. The main two involved one of her children and her work. You mention a few days/weeks of normal, but this is the first time in three years it reached this situation. So pretty exceptional. Regarding dialogue…. we talked about a month ago, when I felt it was important to give her that space to do most of the talking, and for her to feel heard. And also I guess give me time to unpack stuff before responding. I did mention a couple of things which she seemed to get and appreciate though. (For example me realising that supportive messages could be counter productive when she gets that overwhelmed if that makes me another thing that needs her attention, and makes her feel guilty for not replying) I suppose my hope would be a. that she might feel differently after some time apart, and hopefully with the stress and overwhelm quite a bit lower, and b. we can maybe talk some more. I also don’t know a. if this is - to a greater or lesser degree - due to her being FA (but it seems to exactly describe what had been happening), or b. if she has an awareness of that. (I know she had some counselling for her anxiety, but not sure if she it touched on this) I do know from her bookcase that she has a few books which may touch in this stuff though. So basically it feels as though it’s worth us talking some more, but I appreciate the result of that may be that we decide to say goodbye. But given our history, I don’t think I would be human if I didn’t hope we might yet find a way past some of this stuff.
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Post by tnr9 on Nov 30, 2022 15:50:05 GMT
Fa and stress (tips from an attatcment/se therapist) If your partner could be under a lot of stress and stops the relationship out of nowhere: Find out if there are many things happening in your partners life, so it's clear if your partners thoughts fly around on everything else. For example, a new apartment, a new job and a life as a student after some years of sabbath. Right now, your partners behavior is not normal, but you nterpret it as a natural stage and do not know if you should let your partner push you away and sometimes hurt you every time, but support your partners situation right now and hope for a few days / weeks a normal level again? Does your partner ends up feeling sorry for her/his behavior and is willing to fight for it? Solution: Keep on having the dialogue with your partner. Remind your partner, that there is so much happening in her/his life right now, that it might be overwhelming for her/him. Investigate what kind of support, that overwhelmed part of your partner needs Remember - If you have too much threat going on, you'll lose the part of your brain that's actually interested in connection, intimacy, love, authenticity, and vulnerability In answer to the bit about stress, I can say that she does suffer from anxiety. And yes, I know that in September she had a lot of stuff going on that was stressing her out and exacerbating her anxiety. The main two involved one of her children and her work. You mention a few days/weeks of normal, but this is the first time in three years it reached this situation. So pretty exceptional. Regarding dialogue…. we talked about a month ago, when I felt it was important to give her that space to do most of the talking, and for her to feel heard. And also I guess give me time to unpack stuff before responding. I did mention a couple of things which she seemed to get and appreciate though. (For example me realising that supportive messages could be counter productive when she gets that overwhelmed if that makes me another thing that needs her attention, and makes her feel guilty for not replying) I suppose my hope would be a. that she might feel differently after some time apart, and hopefully with the stress and overwhelm quite a bit lower, and b. we can maybe talk some more. I also don’t know a. if this is - to a greater or lesser degree - due to her being FA (but it seems to exactly describe what had been happening), or b. if she has an awareness of that. (I know she had some counselling for her anxiety, but not sure if she it touched on this) I do know from her bookcase that she has a few books which may touch in this stuff though. So basically it feels as though it’s worth us talking some more, but I appreciate the result of that may be that we decide to say goodbye. But given our history, I don’t think I would be human if I didn’t hope we might yet find a way past some of this stuff. As a person who has FA attachment (leaning AP in relationships)….I can honestly say that the trauma that causes attachment wounding (this is trauma from the earliest bonding with parents) does not heal over months…it takes years of focused commitment to delve into some of the scariest memories and be willing to work through some very old and looping tapes. I understand looking for the smallest signs of potential reconciliation, but I also want to arm you with the facts. Although external stress can exacerbate the situation…the stress of attachment wounding is “internal”. It is alarm bells that go off even when there isn’t necessarily anything to cause them to. And the worst type of alarm bells comes when 2 individuals with attachment issues trigger each other because their nervous systems are in hyper drive. When there is no trust (as in, I can count on you to consider me…not just consider me the way you want)….when there is no communication (and I mean communication that says…where are we truly at and accepting the answers without trying to read into them)….then there really isn’t going to be a long term future…even if 1 person is trying.
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Post by duklaprague on Nov 30, 2022 19:20:56 GMT
In answer to the bit about stress, I can say that she does suffer from anxiety. And yes, I know that in September she had a lot of stuff going on that was stressing her out and exacerbating her anxiety. The main two involved one of her children and her work. You mention a few days/weeks of normal, but this is the first time in three years it reached this situation. So pretty exceptional. Regarding dialogue…. we talked about a month ago, when I felt it was important to give her that space to do most of the talking, and for her to feel heard. And also I guess give me time to unpack stuff before responding. I did mention a couple of things which she seemed to get and appreciate though. (For example me realising that supportive messages could be counter productive when she gets that overwhelmed if that makes me another thing that needs her attention, and makes her feel guilty for not replying) I suppose my hope would be a. that she might feel differently after some time apart, and hopefully with the stress and overwhelm quite a bit lower, and b. we can maybe talk some more. I also don’t know a. if this is - to a greater or lesser degree - due to her being FA (but it seems to exactly describe what had been happening), or b. if she has an awareness of that. (I know she had some counselling for her anxiety, but not sure if she it touched on this) I do know from her bookcase that she has a few books which may touch in this stuff though. So basically it feels as though it’s worth us talking some more, but I appreciate the result of that may be that we decide to say goodbye. But given our history, I don’t think I would be human if I didn’t hope we might yet find a way past some of this stuff. As a person who has FA attachment (leaning AP in relationships)….I can honestly say that the trauma that causes attachment wounding (this is trauma from the earliest bonding with parents) does not heal over months…it takes years of focused commitment to delve into some of the scariest memories and be willing to work through some very old and looping tapes. I understand looking for the smallest signs of potential reconciliation, but I also want to arm you with the facts. Although external stress can exacerbate the situation…the stress of attachment wounding is “internal”. It is alarm bells that go off even when there isn’t necessarily anything to cause them to. And the worst type of alarm bells comes when 2 individuals with attachment issues trigger each other because their nervous systems are in hyper drive. When there is no trust (as in, I can count on you to consider me…not just consider me the way you want)….when there is no communication (and I mean communication that says…where are we truly at and accepting the answers without trying to read into them)….then there really isn’t going to be a long term future…even if 1 person is trying. It could well be that it’s ultimately a lost cause for all the reasons you say. I guess where I’m currently at is that I don’t know how deep anything goes with her. The FA stuff is just a theory or narrative I have largely ascribed to provide some with some understanding. I do know that her marriage ended around four years ago (about a year before we met), and that was due to her feeling she had no voice and unheard because he would talk down to her, push back all the time and generally make it all unbearable to the point she had to remove herself from the situation. And last time we talked she said something about how “if it didn’t work with him, it won’t work with anyone”. So I don’t know if her view that things always go wrong for her, and fear of real closeness stems from what happened in her marriage, or goes back to sone childhood trauma. It’s also possible that maybe her ex wasn’t as bad as she described… perhaps more minor things he did or said perhaps triggered stuff from childhood wounds. I just don’t know. And again, if we did get the chance to talk (at this stage unlikely anyway probably), there definitely would be some serious things we would have to discuss to figure out if we both thought it was worth trying at least.
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 1, 2022 19:48:43 GMT
As a person who has FA attachment (leaning AP in relationships)….I can honestly say that the trauma that causes attachment wounding (this is trauma from the earliest bonding with parents) does not heal over months…it takes years of focused commitment to delve into some of the scariest memories and be willing to work through some very old and looping tapes. I understand looking for the smallest signs of potential reconciliation, but I also want to arm you with the facts. Although external stress can exacerbate the situation…the stress of attachment wounding is “internal”. It is alarm bells that go off even when there isn’t necessarily anything to cause them to. And the worst type of alarm bells comes when 2 individuals with attachment issues trigger each other because their nervous systems are in hyper drive. When there is no trust (as in, I can count on you to consider me…not just consider me the way you want)….when there is no communication (and I mean communication that says…where are we truly at and accepting the answers without trying to read into them)….then there really isn’t going to be a long term future…even if 1 person is trying. It could well be that it’s ultimately a lost cause for all the reasons you say. I guess where I’m currently at is that I don’t know how deep anything goes with her. The FA stuff is just a theory or narrative I have largely ascribed to provide some with some understanding. I do know that her marriage ended around four years ago (about a year before we met), and that was due to her feeling she had no voice and unheard because he would talk down to her, push back all the time and generally make it all unbearable to the point she had to remove herself from the situation. And last time we talked she said something about how “if it didn’t work with him, it won’t work with anyone”. So I don’t know if her view that things always go wrong for her, and fear of real closeness stems from what happened in her marriage, or goes back to sone childhood trauma. It’s also possible that maybe her ex wasn’t as bad as she described… perhaps more minor things he did or said perhaps triggered stuff from childhood wounds. I just don’t know. And again, if we did get the chance to talk (at this stage unlikely anyway probably), there definitely would be some serious things we would have to discuss to figure out if we both thought it was worth trying at least. When I first came on these boards and learned about attachment wounding, I first welcomed any insight from others about the guy I dated…but when the conversation started to move towards the futility of having a long term relationship with him, I found myself looking for “exceptions”…maybe he was not FA as I had thought because..and I would come up with things that did not fit the pattern. So I understand your hesitation with accepting what I and others have said….especially if you had a mostly happy relationship with her. I do hope that whatever you decide to do, that you will keep us posted. It might help someone else who is new to the boards.
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Post by duklaprague on Dec 1, 2022 22:19:22 GMT
It could well be that it’s ultimately a lost cause for all the reasons you say. I guess where I’m currently at is that I don’t know how deep anything goes with her. The FA stuff is just a theory or narrative I have largely ascribed to provide some with some understanding. I do know that her marriage ended around four years ago (about a year before we met), and that was due to her feeling she had no voice and unheard because he would talk down to her, push back all the time and generally make it all unbearable to the point she had to remove herself from the situation. And last time we talked she said something about how “if it didn’t work with him, it won’t work with anyone”. So I don’t know if her view that things always go wrong for her, and fear of real closeness stems from what happened in her marriage, or goes back to sone childhood trauma. It’s also possible that maybe her ex wasn’t as bad as she described… perhaps more minor things he did or said perhaps triggered stuff from childhood wounds. I just don’t know. And again, if we did get the chance to talk (at this stage unlikely anyway probably), there definitely would be some serious things we would have to discuss to figure out if we both thought it was worth trying at least. When I first came on these boards and learned about attachment wounding, I first welcomed any insight from others about the guy I dated…but when the conversation started to move towards the futility of having a long term relationship with him, I found myself looking for “exceptions”…maybe he was not FA as I had thought because..and I would come up with things that did not fit the pattern. So I understand your hesitation with accepting what I and others have said….especially if you had a mostly happy relationship with her. I do hope that whatever you decide to do, that you will keep us posted. It might help someone else who is new to the boards. I definitely appreciate any and all insight, and my gut does tell me that all of this almost certainly is futile now. It’s not that I am looking for exceptions, it’s that I just don’t know. There has been a lot of stuff to process in a short space of time. The whole fearful avoidant stuff would certainly explain a lot. It’s also true that she went through a bad marriage that sounds like it had some if the hallmarks of the sort of childhood wounding that is cited with FAs. So I don’t know if she is FA with childhood wounds, or FA with wounds from her marriage, or if her marriage triggered childhood wounds. Or if all of this is just brought on by general anxiety that I know she suffers from, and a genuine sense with her that she has just been spreading herself too thin and feels she needs to be more present with her daughters. It’s been one of the most frustrating things for me, ie having to do the No contact thing, when it feels like having a really big talk about sone of this stuff might be good.
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Post by alexandra on Dec 1, 2022 22:55:42 GMT
So I don’t know if she is FA with childhood wounds, or FA with wounds from her marriage, or if her marriage triggered childhood wounds. Or if all of this is just brought on by general anxiety that I know she suffers from. While it doesn't really matter what caused her to have an insecure attachment style, in the big picture sense that she's not able to be in the type of relationship that you're looking for (or deserve!) right now, the way to think about this is, a lot of insecures who aren't particularly cognizant of their attachment style or their patterns subconsciously choose romantic partners who feel familiar and replay the negative childhood dynamics that they wish they could change. So it's most likely she has anxiety from the same childhood issues that caused her insecure attachment style, and then as an adult was attracted to someone who was going to recreate the same toxicity. That didn't help her issues, but the foundation and tendencies were almost definitely already there. The subconscious patterns continue, the insecure person chose another partner (her ex, in this case) to prove and validate all her fears (you can't trust other people, you don't deserve to be treated well), it's all part of intimacy fears and self-fulfilling prophecies typical to all insecure attachment styles. So I wouldn't try to parse it out between her marriage and childhood, I'd see it as all connected. Which indicates how many years she's been living with these issues, which means she won't be able to resolve them overnight even if she decides it's time for her to heal her trauma (it is doable but usually takes a couple years of earnest and focused effort). It is also very likely that if you talk about that part with her, you're going to find she doesn't know the answers or how she feels about a lot of the stuff in her past.
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