|
|
Post by seeking on Jul 31, 2024 12:38:44 GMT
I ask because I just could not do it with B because I ended up spending so much time trying to analyze his world instead of focusing on mine. If was only after I forced myself to defriend him and asked all my friends to not update me that I was able to really focus on my healing journey. Yeah, this isn't a huge problem for me. Like I said, it was only very recently that he started liking all my posts and I started investigating. Before that I had nearly forgotten about him. He was trying to pursue a friendship - even after he got with this woman (said they could come visit me and we could finally meet - no thanks!) .... and then I had just forgotten we were in FB friends but would occasionally see a post and not spend time on it. It was recently that I was like, Huh, that's odd - he's liked my last dozen posts within seconds of me posting (and he's someone who doesn't even have internet on his phone). So it was like, Huh, wonder what is going on. I looked, and turns out he and she haven't posted lately, she had surgery, etc. So I just wrote and asked him how things are going. I think the energy I was putting into it was more watching MY OWN behavior over knowing him and using it as a learning opportunity - like what the heck WAS I doing? Geez. I couldn't even meet him for coffee, etc. In light of my recent sending mixed signals to yet another (new) person, I was reflecting on all that. And then seeing A with someone new just observing the (classic) -- "wow, maybe he was a good guy, I screwed up" -- because it's safer now for me to see his good qualities where before when he was pursuing me, all I saw was this flaw and that problem (because of the perceived threat in my brain). So it helps me to look at that and understand it. Well, at least I hope it does! So I can maybe stop doing it! |
|
|
|
Post by lovebunny on Jul 31, 2024 18:09:12 GMT
Picture it: Maybe 6 years ago? I had just started an r'ship with a monogamous lesbian who had her life together. I was coming out of a horribly insecure r'ships, an off-and-on thing with a much-younger person with BPD. This new woman (who later turned out to be somewhat FA) seemed like a solid choice to date after that. When she first started wanting to spend all her spare time with me, all my insecure stuff started acting up. I felt protective of my life, my space...but then I just said, "What if I just let her?" Like, whenever she wanted to come over, I said ok. Whenever I was going somewhere, I invited her. Bad boundaries aside  Contrary to what I'd believed, it did not become overwhelming. I started to enjoy that amount of attention (which was when she turned FA, of course.) But it was the moment I started to think maybe I could be happy monogamous & partnered if I just let myself. My point is, maybe it won't be so bad. Of course, you have to find someone compatible. Like, you mentioned the food thing. I don't eat meat, and I kind of expect my partner to not be a big meat eater, and if they are it's kind of an incompatibility? I'm disorganized attached, I think, so a bit different. But what you're describing sounds fairly textbook. |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jul 31, 2024 18:22:53 GMT
I understood what Alexandra was saying to mean I was putting up walls to prevent enmeshment. But maybe I'm the one doing the enmeshing? Not sure. Yes, at its core, this is a healthy boundary issue you're sorting out. One way you might be able to work on this is continuing working on being comfortable having and communicating healthy boundaries. That's how you prevent enmeshment. If you're not getting enmeshed because, as tnr9 says, you can figure out how to recognize finding out where you end and another person begins, then you won't feel as much threat to your autonomy. Right now what you're doing doesn't prevent enmeshment, it outright prevents connection. It's a dysfunctional response not a healthy one. If you eventually do let your walls down while still in this mindset, it would become such a big deal that you'd end up over-invested and without boundaries again and then hurt the minute the other person did something out of your control. Which would be enmeshment. That leads to the self fulfilling prophecy bias thing, "oh I feel bad now and knew I'd feel bad if I got involved with this (list of flaws) person, better withdraw again." Not getting enmeshed or co-dependent is two parts: 1. Healthy boundaries for self 2. Choosing an emotionally healthy enough partner meaning they have reasonably healthy boundaries too. If you don't have both these two things, you're going to run into major problems in the relationship. You can't guide someone who doesn't have them into good boundaries even if you get your own side in order. Your description of your intuition is indeed a mind reading hypervigilant trauma response, as you said. Unfortunately, even if you're right most of the time, this 6th sense leads to creating stories about people and situations that tend to not be fully accurate. It's very common in insecures with an activated anxious side, and it does lead to overstepping, assumptions, and codependency and enmeshment if you're relying on this rather than expecting the other person to be able to communicate their needs with you. And there's definitely a history of it with your sister and family beyond that has created a dynamic you need to work on conditioning yourself out of. |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jul 31, 2024 18:58:24 GMT
I had another thought on this, which may be a helpful perspective to consider or may not be. When you're talking about being afraid with a partner that you can't eat what you want or sleep when you want or have some personal space, you do have a child. Children actually do create these circumstances especially when they're little. You don't necessarily have time to eat or sleep at all, or not when you want to. Adults you're in a romantic relationship with should not be putting anything even resembling the demands you'd get from a child who really does need you until they grow up, and yet. It's never sounded like you're enmeshed with your daughter or scared of having a close, connected, loving relationship with her. It sounds like she communicates with you to the extent she's capable and she has boundaries. You may be tired and overextended sometimes, but it's always sounded like you're a good mom who is happy and content in your relationship with your daughter, even if there are external challenges that come with it (like one challenge being her dad!). So maybe you can consider the overall positive relationship with your daughter despite her needing your time and attention and it not always lining up perfectly with what you'd otherwise be doing with your time, and then look at your fears about a romantic relationship and realize that it would be far less demanding assuming you're dating a mature adult.
Obviously a romantic dynamic is different than with a child, but my position here is that everything is much more involved and out of your control with a child until they're an adult, and yet that's still more fulfilling than scary, right? So since you don't need to parent a potential romantic partner, and certainly you should not, it doesn't need to become an enmeshed power struggle and can be far less scary than what you imagine. Again assuming condition #2, that your potential mate has decent boundaries and acts like a mature adult themselves!
|
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Jul 31, 2024 19:21:59 GMT
But what you're describing sounds fairly textbook. Hi Lovebunny. How are you? Textbook avoidant, you mean? The idea of inviting someone everywhere terrifies me and makes me feel super crowded. It's like instant irritation. I'm a workaholic in many ways - not classic like 100 hours a week or something. But mostly that work regulates me -- esp when I'm not actually seeing clients, and just doing the writing part of things, etc. One of the (albeit sad) ways I spent time with the last person I dated 100 years ago was with our laptops. He was an attorney. He was (also sadly) in agreement just to spend time with me.  I look at the photos of A with his new woman who is very glammy and I make up stories about how I'm no fun. Honestly, I'm not that fun. Maybe it's just better to accept that! I think I've just been in survival mode for so long that the biggest thrill to me right now would be having my finances, business, house, health, etc, in order - it's been an uphill battle. Anyway, thanks for sharing this. I didn't mean to shoot it down, lol. |
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Jul 31, 2024 19:27:03 GMT
I understood what Alexandra was saying to mean I was putting up walls to prevent enmeshment. But maybe I'm the one doing the enmeshing? Not sure. Thank you. Still reading but this struck me and is super interesting - can you say more here or give an example? |
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Jul 31, 2024 20:16:13 GMT
seeking Hm, ok, we can try this. For a while when I was AP, I dated all DA guys, and it predictably went south in pretty much the same way each time. Usually, a co-dependent mess where I'd ended up chasing them and they'd avoid and eventually be done. I knew nothing about attachment theory and so of course decided the answer was I kept getting unlucky and finding guys not really that into me, so I needed to only date guys I didn't need to pursue who seemed ultra interested in me. If the guy wasn't immediately all in on me practically obsessed with me, then I'd get hurt and shouldn't let my guard down again for anything less. What this led to was me being love bombed by a bunch of FA guys (and a couple men with serious issues beyond attachment theory), my eventually letting my guard down for them since it must be different this time it's safe if they're chasing me like I wanted, it eventually shifting to them fearing commitment or discarding me. I'd go oh no, I knew it! This always happens! And then it would be back to me chasing them and working harder to get their attention back, then being super hurt and destroyed when things ended anyway because I couldn't attract a decent guy. Cue tears, more fears, rinse and repeat. What was actually going on was I was looking outward for answers when they were inward. Going all-in pushing a DA along to be in a relationship even though they did care about me but maybe didn't want the same type of committed relationship in life that I wanted, or going all-in the other way waiting for someone to relentless pursue me, were two sides of the same bad boundaries coin. Since I had bad boundaries, I wasn't recognizing when others did as well, I just assumed I was doing something wrong. But (more of my assumptions) if I opened up it automatically would work out IF the guy finally liked me enough... which is not how human relationships work. So it would take forever for me to feel like I met a guy I felt enough spark with and attraction to who was worth opening up to, but since I missed all the red flags that he or I either had no boundaries or walls up way too high to an unhealthy degree due to a lack of trust in self, other, or both, when all was said and the drama done, I'd end up right back where I started, feeling lonely, unlovable, scared, crushed, etc. At least until I cleaned up my side of the equation and worked on my own emotional health, boundaries, and availability. Is that what you're looking for or too broad and abstract still?
|
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Jul 31, 2024 20:32:34 GMT
So maybe you can consider the overall positive relationship with your daughter despite her needing your time and attention and it not always lining up perfectly with what you'd otherwise be doing with your time, and then look at your fears about a romantic relationship and realize that it would be far less demanding assuming you're dating a mature adult. Obviously a romantic dynamic is different than with a child, but my position here is that everything is much more involved and out of your control with a child until they're an adult, and yet that's still more fulfilling than scary, right? So since you don't need to parent a potential romantic partner, and certainly you should not, it doesn't need to become an enmeshed power struggle and can be far less scary than what you imagine. Again assuming condition #2, that your potential mate has decent boundaries and acts like a mature adult themselves! This is actually a really good example. It a little bit stunned me. I was like, woah, I have a mostly-healthy relationship with someone! I think the risk with my daughter, which I won't go into, - maybe less "risk" and more my fear - was parentification of her since she and I are together A LOT and she sees me in various states of stress, etc. But she's pretty good about not taking care of me and a couple times has said "I don't want to hear about your problem with dad" and I shut up about it. But I love her out of this world. And maybe I didn't imagine loving a man like that. I will say though I've been avoidant with her at times - and maybe that's where I'm getting a little of this fear. Like summer is very very hard for me. We have less structure, it's brutally hot and I'm cranky (not my season). And around dinner time I want nothing to do with cooking, eating, sitting at a table where the sun is baking everything through the window, so I tend to give her dinner and be in the kitchen and she's like out here alone eating. I will check with her, sit on the sofa - but I have a really hard time sitting and eating with her. I do need my space a lot - a lot - but we are also together a lot and I'm downright exhausted. And like I said to LoveBunny - I'm just not that fun. She and I have already talked about how I'm not fun mom. I will make her homemade yogurt to help her gut, and research a remedy for some ailment, and spend all day (or even weeks) finding the best homeschool program. I'll do what it takes to get her better, etc. But I'm not the water-slide, beach-going, vacationing, fun-loving mom type. I just haven't had a ton of space for that. And I think she's okay with that now. But that's also sort of how I am in relationship. I'll make you a good soup if your sick, check on you, care for you, listen, be concerned, figure it out with you, have your back, support you -- I'm super faithful and loyal and caring. But I'm NOT like lets dress up for a night on the town, listen to live music, sports, concerts, comedy, drinks -- none of that. I'm a bookish quiet introvert and want to be in a tent in the woods! But, yeah, I think I was just thinking what you wrote PLUS another human feels like I'm smothered. If I'm already giving up stuff for my daughter, then what little extra minutes I have someone else will want, that feels super unappealing. But when you put it this way it does help me to conceptualize things differently. Sorry for the novel! |
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Jul 31, 2024 21:00:01 GMT
I understood what Alexandra was saying to mean I was putting up walls to prevent enmeshment. But maybe I'm the one doing the enmeshing? Not sure. Your description of your intuition is indeed a mind reading hypervigilant trauma response, as you said. Unfortunately, even if you're right most of the time, this 6th sense leads to creating stories about people and situations that tend to not be fully accurate. It's very common in insecures with an activated anxious side, and it does lead to overstepping, assumptions, and codependency and enmeshment if you're relying on this rather than expecting the other person to be able to communicate their needs with you. And there's definitely a history of it with your sister and family beyond that has created a dynamic you need to work on conditioning yourself out of. Yeah, I'm working with this. I tried to not "know what I know," but I did talk with my therapist about this at length, and he said it's really not possible. He helped me take the shame out of it. I just now will check with people and get facts rather than assume - even though I'm usually right about 95% of the time. I think it just gets awkward sometimes when it's like this current friend who I think is upset with me and she won't admit it b/c she doesn't like conflict, so I'll ask her but if she says "Everything's fine," I just gotta go with that. |
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Jul 31, 2024 21:05:09 GMT
I guess one thing that is coming to mind now that I wrote what I did about parenting is --
What if I'm just really an introvert? And these tendencies are more my needing to recharge (as I mentioned, I hate summer and always feel very burned out in summer) (AND I just spent a total of 60 hours driving over 5 weeks back and forth to my daughter's camps, I'm just exhausted). But I wonder how to know what's truly attachment-based avoidance and my need for alone time to recharge.
I think a lot of this started recently b/c I keep telling my coach person "I don't think now is a good time for me" and she's taking that as ambivalence, and I'm just taking it as burnout and no juice. (But I do know I still have avoidant/insecure stuff, obviously).
Oh and another thought I had was that I'm like in the thick of raising a kid/parenting and trying to maintain a stable life and business -- and so the thought of dating and romance feels like it runs counter to that? I think I've said this before, but if I were just married and a "housewife" I feel like I'd be good at that -- but single parenting, running a business, healing our health issues, and working through trauma and trying to date/meet a partner - yikes. Feels nutty!
|
|
|
|
Post by anne12 on Aug 1, 2024 0:37:34 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by anne12 on Aug 1, 2024 5:30:42 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Aug 1, 2024 8:50:32 GMT
Your description of your intuition is indeed a mind reading hypervigilant trauma response, as you said. Unfortunately, even if you're right most of the time, this 6th sense leads to creating stories about people and situations that tend to not be fully accurate. It's very common in insecures with an activated anxious side, and it does lead to overstepping, assumptions, and codependency and enmeshment if you're relying on this rather than expecting the other person to be able to communicate their needs with you. And there's definitely a history of it with your sister and family beyond that has created a dynamic you need to work on conditioning yourself out of. Yeah, I'm working with this. I tried to not "know what I know," but I did talk with my therapist about this at length, and he said it's really not possible. He helped me take the shame out of it. I just now will check with people and get facts rather than assume - even though I'm usually right about 95% of the time. I think it just gets awkward sometimes when it's like this current friend who I think is upset with me and she won't admit it b/c she doesn't like conflict, so I'll ask her but if she says "Everything's fine," I just gotta go with that. Interesting. I do wonder if doing a bit of SE on top of your existing therapy would help. Just to help with any stored trauma in the body. SE has been so incredibly helpful to me in terms of unlocking deep set trauma reactions. I was always so much in my head with emotions and thoughts and I really numbed my body for decades. I did find that unlocking trauma this way provided an avenue to explore emotions that I felt I could not express as a child such as anger. Just another option. |
|
|
|
Post by cherrycola on Aug 1, 2024 19:40:54 GMT
I suffer from this. It helped me to get clear on my dealbreakers. Mine are respect, emotional safety, and divorced. If a man trips on those, he is out. Then I have my list of things I consider red flags, such as emotional dumping, oversharing, isn't sure what he wants, boundary issues, etc.
Then I just view the first date as information gathering. In fact I refuse to become someone's penpal so if it doesn't happen within a reasonable amount of time, I am out. Then you show up, have fun, and when you finish you sit down and journal how you feel about it.
The only thing you need to answer after a first date is, do I want a second date? Then by the third date, I have an idea of if I want to continue to see them.
The questions I ask myself:
Am I energized or drained by this person?
Am I free to be my authentic self around them?
Was the conversation free flowing or was it forced and awkward with a lot of prompted questions because there are large lulls vs organic questions that flow from the conversation and curiosity.
When they text me do I feel excited or ugh?
Am I curious about this person?
Do they have any red flags that came up? Do I need more information or is this enough, such as (recently separated from an ex)
Do I want to touch them? / Be touched by them? Even if just a hug or some light flirting. This one is REALLY telling for me. I have gone over this in therapy a lot. How a date could be going great but then I just can't touch them and feel weird and my counsellor told me to trust that about myself and don't force myself to get over it. If I don't want to kiss by the third date, then end things.
|
|
|
|
Post by seeking on Aug 1, 2024 22:36:59 GMT
So just to be downright blunt - this is some of my behavior.
Guy likes me on dating site.
I write to guy and say thanks for the like (though maybe he did write me, I don't remember).
We write back and forth for a long time.
Coach says, give it another week and if he doesn't move things ahead, say "_______" (something like "nice talking, best wishes.")
He gives me his number.
I give him mine.
He texts.
I am _________ (sick, run down?) I don't know but I text him right back as I'm going to bed.
Coach says - you didn't need to do that. You could have waited a day or two and it would have been fine.
These are our messages (in part) (I just looked back at them now and was like woah - on my part)
He texts, I say "Hey thanks for connecting. I'm off to bed and will message you tomorrow."
Him - okay, good night.
Saturday July 6 5:30 pm
Hey D, I'm sorry I didn't reach back out today. I'm a bit down with a summer cold, apparently. Gonna take it easy but hope to connect soon. Hope you're having a good day and staying cool!
Saturday July 6 5:56 pm
Hi Seeking, no need to apologize. Feel better!! Enjoy your evening.
Monday July 8 7:33 pm
Hi D. How was your weekend? I'm better today. Hopefully we can catch up later in the week or this weekend.
Monday July 8 7:52 pm
Hi Seeking, my weekend was nice, thank you. I'm glad you're feeling better!!
My coach feels like he's got some ambivalence too and that he could have said, "Do you want to schedule a call/meet, etc"
My friend says, he's healthy for not positively responding to my back and forth/mixed messages.
I just left off there and never texted him? (Which I didn't even realize until now -- nearly a month later looking back at our texts).
Because now I see him post his photos on a singles group we're both in on FB. And "suddenly" I'm like "Oh, he's actually pretty handsome. I think he's cool. Maybe I should reach back out."
And then when I think about actually doing that, I go, "But I remember I thought this about him. And deep down, I don't actually think he's my guy."
So this is why I titled this post "Deep seated issues" !! (I should add "up the wazoo" sheesh). Although, I guess in my defense I feel like I'm listening to my coach a bit and she is of the mind that men will pursue you when they're interested and that's just in their nature. And this isn't all about me and my ambivalence.
|
|
Contrary to what I'd believed, it did not become overwhelming. I started to enjoy that amount of attention (which was when she turned FA, of course.) But it was the moment I started to think maybe I could be happy monogamous & partnered if I just let myself.
