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Post by seeking on Jul 29, 2024 23:08:50 GMT
I'm working with a coach on finding a partner. I'm committed to committing and it's kicking my butt.
My coach works with something called "prolonged singleness" (I'm 52 and have never married, though I have a child).
I've talked to some men and my coach has watched me put up wall after wall - he's too this, too that, not enough this. She's titled this "ambivalence." I've owned my ambivalence and on a good day I feel like I can work with it; on a bad day, I feel hopeless.
What came up this weekend felt really overwhelming and like it opened my eyes in a new way to my underlying issues and I'm just coming here for some support.
Basically after kicking and screaming about this guys issues and that, with my coach gently bringing it back to my own fears and ambivalence, I realized (as I prepared to write to someone) a lot of things that felt scary --
Like making room in my life for someone. Feeling "set in my ways," and not wanting to change that. Being "transactional" -- What am I getting? Is it really worth it? Is it worth it for all the "sacrifice" or "compromise" I have to make to "let someone in."
I know a big part of it is feeling protective of my time and energy - being a single, working, homeschooling mom of a kid with special needs has wiped me out and giving can feel like "too much" -- and while there's a reality to that, I still have a deeper-down belief that I uncovered today that is about rejection.
Like I'm going to need space to live how I want --- i.e., eat my foods, go to bed early, maybe not go do this or that, and because I'm so "high needs" someone is going to find that annoying and I'm more vulnerable to rejection --- (I do have some really good qualities to offer, believe it or not!) ---
I just wonder - do other "avoidants"/ambivalent folks feel like this?
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Post by mrob on Jul 30, 2024 16:55:05 GMT
Absolutely. I see no rational need for a relationship for those exact reasons. I’m a couple of years younger than you, been married twice with one child that lives with me half the time. My life is reasonably busy. But….there are times when I get lonely. I know no woman would put up with most aspects of my life, and I know there are aspects I never want to change again. How does one go into a relationship with that attitude? It’s difficult. The economic aspect (not the $, but the life aspects you’re talking about) is definitely transactional and can’t be ignored. Dating at our age is nothing like in our 20s. There’s far more to consider.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 30, 2024 17:25:28 GMT
I see this post as a description of fear of enmeshment. A lot of insecure attachers experience that. I also don't see it reflecting reality IF you can find a relationship in which you are secure with each other (you can actually be securely attached with another person while still each having insecure attachment styles! Though it may be bumpier to resolve conflict than for people with secure attachment styles).
I don't feel like I can't eat the foods I want or can't go to bed at the time I want or can't sometimes be in a different location from my husband. If your lifestyles are reasonably compatible, everything doesn't need to feel like a compromise or sacrifice.
I felt like I was walking on eggshells when I was an insecure attacher dating other insecures and in insecure relationships with them, but a lot of it turned out to be a construct within my own head. I was being co-dependent and hypervigilant, and my partners would indeed get annoyed about certain things and not communicate about them. That wasn't about me, they would have done that with any partner. So there was merit in my feeling constrained. But ultimately, that feeling was indicating we weren't a good fit for each other, and the purpose of dating is to get to know each other and figure that out before committing. However, as an insecure who did not trust in myself enough and was prone to abandoning my own needs, I misinterpreted the feeling as I was doing something wrong which made relationships hard or impossible, I needed to change my life to accommodate someone else, if they were annoyed then they must be right and I shouldn't see it as incompatible, I should just keep trying harder to push down my needs, etc etc. This is insecure dysfunctional behavior coming from self and learned from old bad family patterns (which, good news, is something you've been working to address already and can be worked on!) coupled with choosing incompatible partners (which can only be avoided by taking the time to get to know someone and gaining life experience to figure out).
I know you have specific considerations because your child has special needs. But I also think there's a lot you can confront within yourself with your therapist to break free of some of this fearful thinking, and that it's not an absolute that a relationship will be as much of a hardship and constraining as it can be fulfilling.
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Post by seeking on Jul 30, 2024 20:01:07 GMT
thanks you guys. This is really helpful.
I think I have a unique perspective given that I watched a guy I "dallied" about for over a year partner with someone else and get to see them on Facebook -- not that that is in any way an accurate depiction of what's *really* happening, but it's created enough pain for me to go - how many more guys (or as my coach puts it "coffee dates") am I going to pass up before I end up truly alone. Like will this pain outweigh that pain? (i.e., the pain of watching some guy move on with someone else) or the pain of being alone.
At the time, I found 15 things wrong with him before we even met (as some of you may recall because I posted about it frantically here and in a panic). I was so afraid I COULDN'T EVEN MEET HIM FOR COFFEE. (That makes me sad, looking back) but I made the things about him that I questioned REAL rather than just go out, find out, etc.
So I just did the same thing again - TWO MORE TIMES.
It's like, hello.
So now that all that has become so painful and it's not like I have endless options, I'm willing to at least try harder and be more willing and it is really scary and my brain is coming up with 10 new reasons.
And I think part of what I'm doing is projecting *that* into a relationship - like wow, I'm already exhausted and I haven't gone on a single date. So just trying to stay present and take it one step at a time and not let my fears swallow me.
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Post by seeking on Jul 30, 2024 20:14:38 GMT
So the other thing that's been happening is the guy I talked to for over a year on email who basically asked to me like 10 times is now with someone. I'm friends with him on FB still and I see all their posts - clearly a whirlwind romance.
I also think it's confirming my worst fears about myself. I know that if I had gotten together with him a year ago, I would have been in a place of finding 52 different things wrong with him and making everyone miserable. I'm actually jealous of this woman's apparent ability to adore him -- in many of their photos she has him in adoring poses, like her hand tucked around his face -- she is gorgeous, seems very gregarious, huge smile. They are off doing a million things - friends, drinks, travel, FUN, etc. Even a photo of her with her arm wrapped around his father and him (and his mom is there too). SO. NOT. ME. She's also a former model, does not appear to have kids - closer in age to him.
And I'm all -- see, we weren't a fit. I knew it deep down. So this is helping to have me reinforce my deep avoidant fears. (He would have rejected me if he can have a woman like that).
And ... of course he's all the more attractive now that he's NOT available! Of course. SO that's the painful part of it 1) I screwed up 2) I'll likely keep screwing up 3) I'm not at all magnanimous and adventurous (anymore). 4) here I was rejecting him and I'm not even anything like her.
Ugh. So I should prob unfriend him? HOWEVER, the other thing - and not that I need to make this mean anything at all, but my last 10-12 posts (so past two weeks I would say) is the reason I've even had him on my radar is because he's liked every single one of my FB posts lately and within seconds of me posting? I got the impression he was traveling around and rarely ever on FB anyway. Again, it doesn't have to mean anything, but still... a little odd.
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Post by alexandra on Jul 30, 2024 21:18:06 GMT
Can you further explore why you're doing this? It sounds like a lot of self fulfilling prophecy that's based on stories you're telling yourself. You're not even meeting these people in person?
There might be rejection sensitive dysphoria that some neurodivergent people experience mixed with your FA fear of enmeshment / abandonment. The FA fears can be worked on. If you have rejection dysphoria, you may need to talk to your therapist about how to manage it because I haven't come across any "fixes."
But on paper it sounds like: - you find pen pals - you scare yourself out of progressing romantically because you fear if a relationship is on the table (enmeshment) and if they're emotionally available to you - then you get resentful if they move on to a woman who will actually show up for them - you fear that you've been abandoned since they're no longer available to you - you find reasons to put yourself down against whoever they're dating next, even though who that person is and who you are have absolutely nothing to do with why things didn't work out with them or if they'd have chosen you if you gave them a chance.
The reason nothing is moving forward isn't because these men would all run off with someone different if given that opportunity, it's because your walls are so high they can't give you a chance. You're refusing to connect with them and build something in a real way. It's not really fair to expect them to chase you forever and be alone themselves when you're never going to become available to them unless they leave.
I think you know most of that already. But, unfollow the men who are in new relationships. You don't need to unfriend them totally, but don't look at what they're doing now if it just leads you to compare yourself to other women and make up a story about how great their relationship is. It's irrelevant to you.
Then, I'm sure I've said this before, but the key is working on figuring out who you are and what you want and deep down believing it's enough and you're enough. That's all wrapped up in your family trauma, and disconnecting and healing from that, and it's not easy. But you're right that you're at a turning point. You need to decide if the pain of being alone after sabotaging yourself and going through the pattern over and over is more or less than the pain of changing and trying something different. Just changing what you're doing on paper isn't enough, though, because you need to try something different with someone emotionally healthy and available enough who won't just get turned off as soon as you're attached. If you choose someone unavailable to try something different with, it'll just be the self-fulfilling prophecy all over again.
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Post by seeking on Jul 30, 2024 21:56:18 GMT
Oh yes, I don't fault this man for moving on. Just wild to watch my crazy behavior though all of this.
I do know most of it, but the way you lay it out and how you articulate it definitely helps me see it, wrap my head around it.
And then notice things like - I wasn't always this way. I prob had a bit of love addiction back in the day - that thrust me into a relationship with my daughter's father who was very neurodivergent, very avoidant and I was madly anxious, throwing myself at him.
But after that ended all so traumatically, I really only dated a few guys - but at least I dated! My daughter was little, and I was still hopeful that I could move on and marry and have more kids, etc. The guys I dated were decent - but largely avoidant themselves, or had drama, etc. although one of them is still married (he met the person the same time as me). So back then I was still co-dependent, love addicted, messed up but *at least I was dating* and putting myself out there. I fell for unavailable men, etc - fantasized galore (I remember one in particular).
Then something shifted, and I started doing real self-work. That was a definite turning point. During that time, I ended up in a relationship with a love-addict and it was all so offensive to me that I ended up being his "teacher" and telling him everything he was doing wrong. He found a coach and tried to work on himself - we lasted over a year. My daughter was about 7 and his kids were similar in age. But he was a hot mess (and clearly I was too) (he ended up back with his first ex wife after me - I believe there were 3).
After that, a few dates with other guys, -- one who kept ending things with me, and I became a little obsessed with him -- then covid struck and that is when I underwent pretty severe traumas -- the very last guy I dated was THE LAST. Like something snapped in me after that. I developed severe driving anxiety -- that I'm still trying to unpack, and it's getter better. I was representing myself in court with custody, etc., ended up with severe covid, moved, on and on and on - and ended up having a panic attack on a traffic circle, and after that my brain was like "Enough" - and I went into borderline agoraphobia - basically everything felt terrifying. The guy told me one day about how things got really bad with his wife -- that he slammed books down (I feared he had an underlying anger issue) and suddenly I felt sooooo unsafe. I ended things with him. He kept at it. He actually kept at it for 2 years, sending me cards, texting. It was frightening (to my already traumatized brain at that time).
And I basically haven't dated since then. Just the pen pal and scare myself thing.
The other thing I know though is that I am zero interested in unavailable men now. I think that might add another layer - like I was v. traumatized, but also that I was going for men who were more or less available. And that was alllll new. Like maybe never in my life had I even been attracted to available (seeming) men. I think I could sniff out the chaotic/unavailable ones and easily date them and get involved with them, but now that they're not - I'm all behind a wall. Does that make sense? And so now (I think) the habit of finding 27 things wrong or projecting a bad outcome to keep distance/protect myself.
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Post by seeking on Jul 30, 2024 22:10:02 GMT
I think you know most of that already. But, unfollow the men who are in new relationships. You don't need to unfriend them totally, but don't look at what they're doing now if it just leads you to compare yourself to other women and make up a story about how great their relationship is. It's irrelevant to you. Yes, I thought of unfriending him, but then I forgot about it for a while. I wouldn't go looking for him (or her as her profile is pretty open to the public) but they'd pop up on my feed. It wasn't until very recently though -- with his like on the last dozen of my posts over the past couple weeks that I found it actually confusing. I'm confident they are still together and things are fine, but in FB world, the last post of them together is about the time he started liking every one of my posts - and her last post was of scars on her body (like a surgery) and it's unclear why (people tried asking but she didn't say). So I figure I will just do myself a favor and send him a friendly email to see how things are going rather than head down some painful road of fantasizing that things will end with them and I'll have a second chance, etc. I really don't want to give it energy. Plus, if I'm honest, I just don't think it's very kind of him to be liking every single post of mine the minute I post. Maybe he has a different viewpoint and sees me as a "friend" and likes are just supporting what I share, but it's still weird to me. I couldn't see myself meeting a guy on an online dating site, and then ending up with someone else and liking every one of his posts. That's just me.
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 30, 2024 23:25:10 GMT
I think you know most of that already. But, unfollow the men who are in new relationships. You don't need to unfriend them totally, but don't look at what they're doing now if it just leads you to compare yourself to other women and make up a story about how great their relationship is. It's irrelevant to you. Yes, I thought of unfriending him, but then I forgot about it for a while. I wouldn't go looking for him (or her as her profile is pretty open to the public) but they'd pop up on my feed. It wasn't until very recently though -- with his like on the last dozen of my posts over the past couple weeks that I found it actually confusing. I'm confident they are still together and things are fine, but in FB world, the last post of them together is about the time he started liking every one of my posts - and her last post was of scars on her body (like a surgery) and it's unclear why (people tried asking but she didn't say). So I figure I will just do myself a favor and send him a friendly email to see how things are going rather than head down some painful road of fantasizing that things will end with them and I'll have a second chance, etc. I really don't want to give it energy. Plus, if I'm honest, I just don't think it's very kind of him to be liking every single post of mine the minute I post. Maybe he has a different viewpoint and sees me as a "friend" and likes are just supporting what I share, but it's still weird to me. I couldn't see myself meeting a guy on an online dating site, and then ending up with someone else and liking every one of his posts. That's just me. I think there is a lot of internal guessing and story making on your part….look at all the work you are putting in trying to figure out why he liked your post…looking at his profile, tying in her last post to when he started liking yours and then judging it and having feelings of him being unkind. Don’t get me wrong…I did the exact same thing when B and I were trying to be friends…I would see him “online” on messenger and see a friend of mine that he had liked “online” and I went down this rabbit hole of thinking they were talking to each other. I used to put up high walls as well…but that was because I was enmeshing with strangers and exes. It felt so icky….and yet…I did not realize I was doing it until my therapist raised it.i think it is so easy to do if you were enmeshed with one of your parents as a child. It becomes like breathing…guessing the motives of others, finding faults, putting up walls…..the solution isn’t to look at the symptoms…but to really address the root enmeshment. I call it…finding out where I end and another person begins. Because until you can do this separation…there is no relationship that will be free from guess work, story telling, fault finding and walls. I want to emphasize that it is not your fault…..enmeshment did not start with you….but this is an opportunity for you to end it. There is such freedom on the other side….no guesswork and not taking things personally because you know where you end and the other person begins and who owns what and an ability to call a story out whenever one starts to pop in your head. 🙂
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Post by seeking on Jul 30, 2024 23:48:47 GMT
I think there is a lot of internal guessing and story making on your part….look at all the work you are putting in trying to figure out why he liked your post…looking at his profile, tying in her last post to when he started liking yours and then judging it and having feelings of him being unkind. That's why I wrote him directly to see what's going on and not make up any more stuff about it! (I also notice as I wrote, wow, it might be cook to be friends with him <----- first time I thought that, and interesting that it feels "safer" now that he's unavailable.
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Post by seeking on Jul 30, 2024 23:49:18 GMT
I used to put up high walls as well…but that was because I was enmeshing with strangers and exes. I'm not sure I understand this.
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Post by anne12 on Jul 31, 2024 0:38:37 GMT
Do not forget the impact of your hormones during peri meno pause and menopause. “Hormonal fluctuations leading up to and during the menopause can have a marked impact on your ADHD symptoms. When you go through menopause, your oestrogen levels decline. This can, in turn, impact the neurotransmitters in your brain required for attention, regulating your emotions, organisational skills, and memory. Women without ADHD may experience this, but for women with a diagnosis, the peri/menopause can make your symptoms more severe, and the need for specialised treatment more likely. Reduced oestrogen levels during the menopause also include a drop in dopamine levels, which are already lower in women with ADHD. As you go through menopause, you may find that you have more difficulties than usual, or that symptoms you experienced before get slightly worse. You may also experience low mood or increased anxiety during and after this transition. You might feel that life gets a bit harder at this time but with the right support and an understanding of how your hormones impact your ADHD, you should be able to manage your symptoms more effectively.” There is a British study where they have asked 5000 women with adhd about their struggles There is also going to be a research on autistic women and peri meno pause / meno pause www.bournemouth.ac.uk/news/2023-04-18/new-research-explore-impact-menopause-autistic-peopleA lot of women in general feels like they want to become a hermit / becomes less social / becomes avoidant in peri meno pause / menopause
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 31, 2024 1:56:49 GMT
I used to put up high walls as well…but that was because I was enmeshing with strangers and exes. I'm not sure I understand this. It ties into what Alexandra said to you. Individuals who are secure have boundaries that are flexible…they generally trust people and are not afraid of being overwhelmed by others or abandoned by them. On the contrast, individuals with trauma….have inflexible boundaries….either creating walls to ptotect themselves, or have no boundaries at all….
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Post by tnr9 on Jul 31, 2024 3:23:39 GMT
I think there is a lot of internal guessing and story making on your part….look at all the work you are putting in trying to figure out why he liked your post…looking at his profile, tying in her last post to when he started liking yours and then judging it and having feelings of him being unkind. That's why I wrote him directly to see what's going on and not make up any more stuff about it! (I also notice as I wrote, wow, it might be cook to be friends with him <----- first time I thought that, and interesting that it feels "safer" now that he's unavailable. That is a good start towards validating your thoughts. Is there a reason you are still friends? I ask because I just could not do it with B because I ended up spending so much time trying to analyze his world instead of focusing on mine. If was only after I forced myself to defriend him and asked all my friends to not update me that I was able to really focus on my healing journey.
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Post by seeking on Jul 31, 2024 12:28:56 GMT
That's why I wrote him directly to see what's going on and not make up any more stuff about it! (I also notice as I wrote, wow, it might be cook to be friends with him <----- first time I thought that, and interesting that it feels "safer" now that he's unavailable. That is a good start towards validating your thoughts. Is there a reason you are still friends? I ask because I just could not do it with B because I ended up spending so much time trying to analyze his world instead of focusing on mine. If was only after I forced myself to defriend him and asked all my friends to not update me that I was able to really focus on my healing journey. I think I got confused because it sounded like what you were saying is that I was enmeshing with this guy (I'll call him "A"). I think of it more as mind-reading. I happen to be highly (highly) intuitive to the point of almost being psychic (thanks trauma) and so I have to be careful. I work with folks in a helping/healing capacity and I picked up on something the other day working with someone and I don't always share it. (I don't always assume I'm right). This time, I did share it and just gently asked, Hey was there anything shocking that happened recently - seems your system is dealing with some kind of shock. The following session she said, "I just wanted to share that I had an electrical shock right before we met last time." Happens all the time. So sometimes I may "over-rely" on that 6th sense of mine. Which I know can be a boundary violation - but again I just don't always assume I'm right. I will check out facts where I can, ask, etc. In other words, I don't act on it. Like right now I know a friend is upset with me, but she's acting like she's not - that she's just busy, didn't see my message, etc. So I will say to her "Hey, if I did something, please let me know." And not just assume my hunch is right. So I guess I get confused about enmeshment -- like what really is it? What would it look like, etc. I understood what Alexandra was saying to mean I was putting up walls to prevent enmeshment. But maybe I'm the one doing the enmeshing? Not sure.
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