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Post by bedlam71 on Feb 4, 2018 22:31:16 GMT
Nobody said it was easy and you do have to have an awareness of emotions which avoidants avoid. you are here looking for insight so identify and label emotional experience, ask yourself if it's effective to act on the emotion, if it's not, then do opposite action.
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Post by ocarina on Feb 4, 2018 22:56:28 GMT
Nobody said it was easy and you do have to have an awareness of emotions which avoidants avoid. you are here looking for insight so identify and label emotional experience, ask yourself if it's effective to act on the emotion, if it's not, then do opposite action. I think the problem for those who've had early life trauma is that acting on the emotion - or even experiencing the emotion at all is dangerous. It's not a conscious avoidance of emotions - it's a learned life built in an emotional void. It sounds highly unlikely to those who've not experienced it but trust me I have been there. I worked in major trauma (medical) for years, volunteered for crisis charity and in prison work and never was able to actually feel anxiety or stress - and very little intense sadness or joy either - it just wasn't there. For some of us even identifying the emotion is all consuming and pretty much a lifetimes work - these things have become survival mechanisms and it can be extremely painful for an avoidant with a long history of childhood abuse to even allow feelings to be recognised - to actually be present in their own life. I am not being a victim here - life for me is pretty good, I have come a long way and have never suffered in the way that many others have - however I do recognise that if it were as easy as it seems - for any of us, we'd just go out there and do it. For some severe avoidants confronting the past is too painful to contemplate. I think for all of us - DA/FA/AP or secure walk a mile in my shoes is a pretty good rule of thumb...... |
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Post by bedlam71 on Feb 4, 2018 23:10:41 GMT
I am a dbt therapist. I work with an array of people with major avoidance issues. Life threatening behaviors, bpd, eating disorders. We All have habits of thinking and responding. These habits didn't form over night and new habits have to be created. This requires getting off autopilot and using skills. I use mindfulness and emotion regulation skills daily because I am far from an enlightened being. I have anxious tendencies with my ex because I have a fear of abandoment. We can analyze the thoughts all day long and that will not be helpful if the emotion is what causes ineffective behaviors. Emotions are not an intrinsic part of us. They are only appearances to the mind. We suffer when we cling to them as if they are factual. We are slave to them.
Our brains have not been upgraded in a really long time. We respond to things out of fear as if a T-Rex is chasing us when there really is no threat. We have to reprogram that through learning to accept and tolerate emotions and then changing them if we can. It's a practice and a process. Nobody is saying to turn it off and on like a switch
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Post by bedlam71 on Feb 4, 2018 23:14:49 GMT
In stage 1 dbt, we don't even look at the past. We focus on being effective in the here and now. learning skills and practicing them. If you can't deal with emotions in the present, then there is no way you can deal with exposure therapy on past trauma.
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Post by bedlam71 on Feb 4, 2018 23:47:13 GMT
You mentioned an "emotional void". Did you feel like something was missing throughout your life? Empty?
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Post by ocarina on Feb 5, 2018 6:55:00 GMT
Bedlam - I am not sure this is something that it is wise to go into on an online forum - it's complicated by a diagnosis of HFA - so my difficulty accessing emotions is likely to be hard wired as well as learnt. I spent some while really concerned and hunting for feelings where there appeared to be none - i didn't feel empty necessarily, just different in my processing. Over time I have learnt through the help of many wise teachers and some therapy (MBCT) that the technique that works best for me is gentle acceptance of the here and now and observation of bodily sensations which allow me to relate them to possibly emotional causes.
I am, as I said, doing pretty well nowadays - my emotional landscape is likely always to be somewhat different from average and attempting to bring myself into line with average is stressful and not conducive to healing - it can be difficult to know what is a comorbid condition with ASD and what is plain old avoidance - similar presentation - different causes.
Thank you for your input.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 23:51:54 GMT
I don't think so, but I don't know any other DAs, other than from this forum. Unfortunately, I would say I am very oblivious. So Mary if you're dating someone new fir example and communication is quiet after a second date you don't have a response emotionally? I am curious. For FA that kind if thing creates massive massive massive anxiety in my less aware state i could see myself feeling somewhat relieved, maybe even “off the hook” even if i liked them at that stage. but things are dofferent for me being healthier now, with my own feelings and intentions clearer to me. i actually want an intimate relationship. i don’t think my reasons are really in line with an anxious persons reasons. but, now i want an actual relationship and now i feel more positive about this. i think it feels healthy even if i am not good at it. I experienced a lot of things for the first time in my last relationship (first non-abusive one) and i would like to create a good relationship with the right partner. i am talking to girlfriends who have secure relationships in real life also, to run things by them and not rely on my own biases all the time, because i automatically turn guys down for the tiniest of reasons!! it’s not reasonable but it’s a habit to avoid the whole thing. starting to date at this point (currently) is quite different for me but i do notice old habits and auto-responses that i am looking at as i go. my thing has been to just stop stop when i realized that i didn’t want to bother with someone else in my head. i mean, someone else trying to get inside my head. or having to let them in. or i would feel like the energy expenditure would be too much, or whatever. i get emotionally lazy and say “why am i doing this?!?” 🤔 |
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Post by bedlam71 on Feb 7, 2018 1:52:29 GMT
That must be difficult, tgat. It sounds like you want the relationship but dealing with someone else's emotions/wants can be overwhelming. I'm glad to hear that you are approaching situations now.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 2:13:09 GMT
That must be difficult, tgat. It sounds like you want the relationship but dealing with someone else's emotions/wants can be overwhelming. I'm glad to hear that you are approaching situations now. actually, that’s not difficult for me any more but i have very little relationship experience outside of severely abusive ones. my challenge is actually getting IN to a relationship because i stop it before it even begins or don’t really try. i have been on very few actual dates and abandon the process extremely prematurely. it’s not about rejection it’s about liking things the way they are by myself and hesitating to introduce another person into my own private world. i have always told myself i don’t need to do the relationship thing like other people. Or i would try to establish something that would take care of some superficial needs. I actually loved loving my ex DA partner and his needs were very important to me. i loved him so i always did everything i could to meet his needs and i liked taking care of him too. nurturing stuff. he had trouble identifying his needs, a lot, as avoidants sometimes do. so then i was just there with him and we liked to just be. i didn’t try to anticipate his needs when it was like that because i really don’t like when someone does that to me. it was the nicest relationship i have ever had and i feel really good about how i participated in it as i grew. |
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Post by aha on Mar 8, 2018 22:14:13 GMT
The attraction phase
I don't think at this point we like anyone who plays hard to get or acts disinterested (we know we need someone who is into us a lot) but we also don't like anyone who is too full on or too much. This is a tough stage if you're attracted to an FA because they will want a clear statement that you really like them and don't have eyes for anyone else; but they will also want to not feel like you are OTT or suffocating them and they will get quite turned off in this phase if you make any demands. I think any neediness or being hit up too much with messages or worst of all being questioned on something (like jealous behavior) will make them walk away. During this phase, I think FAs are very likely to reject potential relationships for a huge variety of stupid reasons because they kind of subconsciously want to avoid relationships and think every person they care for is going to hurt them. We are suspicious of anyone nice who likes us. Early datingDuring this stage, it's so vulnerable for an FA. Again, they still can't stand clingy or needy or pressure or moving too fast and any of that will trigger avoidant feelings and behavior, but bafflingly they also need consistency, assurance, certainty. So they need to feel very much like they are investing in someone who really likes them but at the same time is not needy. During this phase we are super sensitive like an AP to things like changes in mood of who we are dating or if someone doesn't text one day. If the person is very stable, steady and consistent I am fine but if they are at all confusing or weird or not as into me as I need then the AP side comes out. At this point, my signature move is to break up with someone before they break up with me. The comfortable part For me, once I know for sure the person likes me, I settle down with them and providing they don't smother me OR act hot and cold or confusing, then I can be in a normal relationship and be really happy. For me all AP and FA behaviours completely disappear during this phase and I become very secure. I am able to be loving, easygoing, trusting and happy and don't have any extra needs. The commitment partI am not sure what happens to other FAs, but at the commitment part where this involves me actually becoming intertwined with someone (like living together or making the relationship public or meeting their family) I becomes extremely avoidant. I am not sure why, even if I love the person this happens to me. I remember the day I moved in with my husband my entire body was covered in stress hives that popped up. It's very, very stressful for me. And when I am like this I can be cold, distant, rejecting and even a little mean but what I really need is a hug and to be told the simple words "I am never going anywhere". Calm, reassurance. Long termAgain, once committed and settled, I become very secure and other behaviors pretty much go away. Actually during this phase, because I feel safe and know the person is there no matter what I actually become one of the most chilled partners ever and I can withstand practically anything that gets thrown at me without being spooked. If anything, during this phase I think I am more settled and chilled than any of my friends. One of those women who doesn't get jealous or needy or walk away from arguments etc. Very healthy place for me BreakupsI think this is a strange thing where my FA nature shows, because if I breakup with someone who has hurt me or scared me or made me feel insecure then I honestly can cut them off for dead and actually feel relief that the course of anxiety and fear has left the room. I just stopped seeing an FA i was in love with, and I felt mainly relief. Relief because the source of my anxiety is gone, which is actually more powerful than the missing him. On the other hand, if the breakup is with someone I really loved who was good to me, then I can take this very painfully and even take years to recover as it shakes my core fear of abandonment and confirms to me that I am not good enough and that everyone will leave me. As an interesting by product of the FA attachment style: We breakup for no reason. this is our signature self defence move. We break up so we can avoid. Yasmin, this is so helpful in seeing where things might have gone wrong with a previous partner - and why thing between him and his next partner who is very AP seem to be faring better! What joy hindsight brings! Even trying to forge a friendship seems so difficult because he responds so warmly to my first message and then promptly disappears again and the cycle repeats every few months when I think maybe now enough time has passed to reconnect. I wonder if slow but certain persistence might help? I miss him! And I wish we could have reached that comfortable/long term stage because they sound wonderful  thank you again 🙏🏻 |
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Post by badger on Mar 8, 2018 23:17:53 GMT
Hi everyone- So I just read the baggagerclaim article. I swore I had some direction on things and then boom, my FA reached out to me the other night with some superfluous text about seeing her son’s basketball year end evaluation. I played high level competive basketball growing up and had become very close with her 14 year old son. Her son and I connected on a lot of levels and I know she feels shitty about how anxious she gets at her kids over the stupidest shit. When we were together, she was jealous at times bc her kids used to want me over all the time. Anyway, after the truly amazing 4 months, she just ducked out like a coward. No explanation other than that she needed to figure shit out and right after we got back from a $15k vacation that I popped for...which was amazing in EVERY way. So she has this thing since the breakup and I quote, “yes your amazing, so handsome,successful, sweet, thoughtful, great communicator, great father, great with my kids” blah blah f—ing blah. Sfter I didn’t text her back right away, I get a second text, “oh nice no response, how’s your date?” So I text her back and we make friendly convo and I know she’s feeling vulnerable, so I tell her to listen to this song from Wilco(I refer to it in a previous thread. She says it makes her see herself and say we should sit on our feelings. Great moment for me.
The next day I reach out with a silly, funny, disarming text bc it’s one of her nights not having her kids and I tell her all the things that I hoped for lick a temporary tick, allergic reaction to food, so nobody hits on her. Trust me it was funny AF. Nothing last night or today...crickets, so now I’m super pissed. Let’s recap- she “curbs” with no explanation, has the “sac” to be jealous about whether I’m daying and then gets my funny, disarming text and wants me to squirm. I swear the person that I spent 4 amazing months with, I feel was an imposter and this article confirms it. Is she a sociopath?? Help me gain perspsctive. My therapist(yes I got in therapy over this) is pretty sure she’s major FA, but now I’m thinking she’s a manipulative sociopathic prick. I wanna say some really hurtful shit to her. Please talk me down or give me some perspective.
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Post by badger on Mar 8, 2018 23:18:19 GMT
Hi everyone- So I just read the baggagerclaim article. I swore I had some direction on things and then boom, my FA reached out to me the other night with some superfluous text about seeing her son’s basketball year end evaluation. I played high level competive basketball growing up and had become very close with her 14 year old son. Her son and I connected on a lot of levels and I know she feels shitty about how anxious she gets at her kids over the stupidest shit. When we were together, she was jealous at times bc her kids used to want me over all the time. Anyway, after the truly amazing 4 months, she just ducked out like a coward. No explanation other than that she needed to figure shit out and right after we got back from a $15k vacation that I popped for...which was amazing in EVERY way. So she has this thing since the breakup and I quote, “yes your amazing, so handsome,successful, sweet, thoughtful, great communicator, great father, great with my kids” blah blah f—ing blah. Sfter I didn’t text her back right away, I get a second text, “oh nice no response, how’s your date?” So I text her back and we make friendly convo and I know she’s feeling vulnerable, so I tell her to listen to this song from Wilco(I refer to it in a previous thread. She says it makes her see herself and say we should sit on our feelings. Great moment for me.
The next day I reach out with a silly, funny, disarming text bc it’s one of her nights not having her kids and I tell her all the things that I hoped for lick a temporary tick, allergic reaction to food, so nobody hits on her. Trust me it was funny AF. Nothing last night or today...crickets, so now I’m super pissed. Let’s recap- she “curbs” with no explanation, has the “sac” to be jealous about whether I’m daying and then gets my funny, disarming text and wants me to squirm. I swear the person that I spent 4 amazing months with, I feel was an imposter and this article confirms it. Is she a sociopath?? Help me gain perspsctive. My therapist(yes I got in therapy over this) is pretty sure she’s major FA, but now I’m thinking she’s a manipulative sociopathic prick. I wanna say some really hurtful shit to her. Please talk me down or give me some perspective.
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Post by serene13 on Mar 9, 2018 0:05:04 GMT
Hi everyone- So I just read the baggagerclaim article. I swore I had some direction on things and then boom, my FA reached out to me the other night with some superfluous text about seeing her son’s basketball year end evaluation. I played high level competive basketball growing up and had become very close with her 14 year old son. Her son and I connected on a lot of levels and I know she feels shitty about how anxious she gets at her kids over the stupidest shit. When we were together, she was jealous at times bc her kids used to want me over all the time. Anyway, after the truly amazing 4 months, she just ducked out like a coward. No explanation other than that she needed to figure shit out and right after we got back from a $15k vacation that I popped for...which was amazing in EVERY way. So she has this thing since the breakup and I quote, “yes your amazing, so handsome,successful, sweet, thoughtful, great communicator, great father, great with my kids” blah blah f—ing blah. Sfter I didn’t text her back right away, I get a second text, “oh nice no response, how’s your date?” So I text her back and we make friendly convo and I know she’s feeling vulnerable, so I tell her to listen to this song from Wilco(I refer to it in a previous thread. She says it makes her see herself and say we should sit on our feelings. Great moment for me. The next day I reach out with a silly, funny, disarming text bc it’s one of her nights not having her kids and I tell her all the things that I hoped for lick a temporary tick, allergic reaction to food, so nobody hits on her. Trust me it was funny AF. Nothing last night or today...crickets, so now I’m super pissed. Let’s recap- she “curbs” with no explanation, has the “sac” to be jealous about whether I’m daying and then gets my funny, disarming text and wants me to squirm. I swear the person that I spent 4 amazing months with, I feel was an imposter and this article confirms it. Is she a sociopath?? Help me gain perspsctive. My therapist(yes I got in therapy over this) is pretty sure she’s major FA, but now I’m thinking she’s a manipulative sociopathic prick. I wanna say some really hurtful shit to her. Please talk me down or give me some perspective. Hey buddy - been reading your posts since you joined and you seriously crack me up - in a good way!  I have felt your pain - believe me. But saying hurtful shit won't help. I met someone back in 2016 who seemed like a really smart, insightful, thoughtful person who I thought would be at least a friend for life. But after about 6 weeks and some realization on my part of what I was dealing with and some triggering and distancing by him - the situation drastically changed. The guy I thought I knew, the one who said he could see things about me that no one else could, became a different person. Cold, impersonal, detached, unfeeling. It's a really some crazy stuff, right? I have since pretty much boiled it down to his being FA and not ready to do anything about it. He surgically cut me - who I guess presented an insurmountable problem for him - out of his life - deleted me to be more precise. Yes - I felt a range of emotions. Trying to understand one moment, pissed off and wanting to tell him off the next. There is really nothing I can do and have had to realize that maybe I'm better off. I still am trying to completely figure out everything regarding attachment theory so that I am at least more aware. Doesn't mean I don't care - I'm sure I always will - I just know I don't control any of it and can't. Only he can decide to try to make the changes necessary to have the kind of relationship we seemed headed towards - but I don't expect any of that to happen. |
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Post by devastated on Mar 11, 2018 11:36:27 GMT
Yasmin, thank you so much. I really look forward to reading your post. They really do give an amazing insight to FA behaviour. You have really helped me understand things!
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Post by bedlam71 on Mar 16, 2018 16:17:15 GMT
Can someone give me their opinion on the baggerclaim article? My interpretation is that the FA doesn't love their partner. That for them, the relationship is about control and attention and when they come back, they know they have no intentions of being there.
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thank you again 🙏🏻
I have felt your pain - believe me. But saying hurtful shit won't help. I met someone back in 2016 who seemed like a really smart, insightful, thoughtful person who I thought would be at least a friend for life. But after about 6 weeks and some realization on my part of what I was dealing with and some triggering and distancing by him - the situation drastically changed. The guy I thought I knew, the one who said he could see things about me that no one else could, became a different person. Cold, impersonal, detached, unfeeling. It's a really some crazy stuff, right? I have since pretty much boiled it down to his being FA and not ready to do anything about it. He surgically cut me - who I guess presented an insurmountable problem for him - out of his life - deleted me to be more precise. Yes - I felt a range of emotions. Trying to understand one moment, pissed off and wanting to tell him off the next. There is really nothing I can do and have had to realize that maybe I'm better off. I still am trying to completely figure out everything regarding attachment theory so that I am at least more aware. Doesn't mean I don't care - I'm sure I always will - I just know I don't control any of it and can't. Only he can decide to try to make the changes necessary to have the kind of relationship we seemed headed towards - but I don't expect any of that to happen.