|
|
Post by Lily on Nov 18, 2016 19:41:02 GMT
I am writing my story here – although it is pretty much the same sad tale that I have read (and found helpful) all over this board – in the hope that it may help someone else who finds themselves in this position.
I met him just under a year ago, and he was the most beautiful man I’d ever seen. I’ve always been a sucker for a pretty face, and I sadly wonder whether this is one of the reasons that I let the red flags pile up without examining them too closely. For months we built a great friendship, met several times a week, texted almost daily, created a connection on so many levels. Things naturally progressed, and he began to pursue me more and more. It was uplifting, intense and felt special. I didn’t know that the day I told him I reciprocated his feelings would be the first nail in the coffin of this relationship (he’d won his prize – now it was time to put me (the prize) on the shelf).
I was away on vacation soon after we’d professed our mutual attraction to each other, and decision to move the relationship forward. I sent a text from the beach telling him I was taking things easy and thinking about my future. He immediately texted back to say he didn’t like commitment. This took me aback, as I hadn’t mentioned anything of the sort and it was the furthest thing from my mind.
Once I returned, he began asking me when we were going to go away together. I was always non-committal on this, but finally one day he asked me to come visit him on a trip he was taking to Central America and I finally said yes. Immediately, things changed, like the flip of a switch. He was distant. I didn’t hear from him for days, which was unusual. When I said – let’s talk about Central America – he said, well, I have to see when I could fit you in, my sister and cousin are visiting too, so I might not have time. I quickly learned this was a no-go subject, so I let it go. I would tell him how I felt about him, and he would tell me about his messed up family, and that he couldn’t love. He told me – I don’t want you to stop telling me how you feel, but I have nothing to give back to you.
To say the relationship was a rollercoaster, would be an understatement. I’d always been in secure relationships, so I didn’t understand what was happening to me. I felt depressed when I didn’t get a response from him for days, but then he’d be back, and things would be the same as they had been in the beginning, and I’d be elated. I’d ignore the bad feelings I’d had in-between, wondering what was going on. I talked to my friends about this, but they didn’t understand. They could not grasp what it meant to be in the dance with an avoidant, where he is teetering – he wants you, but you’re getting too close, so his feelings are beginning to shut down. They couldn’t understand how this could wreak havoc on someone who is usually so normal and confident.
It got to the point where I had to disengage from the relationship, and I told him I needed some time to myself to sort some things out in my life (I had a lot going on). I found this site, read up on DA and FA – I think he has traits of both. He ticked pretty much every box, like a textbook. I knew that I needed to cut him out of my life, but my heart couldn’t do it. I re-engaged with him, told him that I couldn’t say goodbye without giving us a chance. I told him all about DA traits and my interpretation of what was going on in his head. He agreed that everything I said was true. I told him I needed him to meet me half way. He said he needed to think about it, and never got back to me. I knew he’d completely shut down by this point, but my heart couldn’t let go. I needed a definitive answer so I could move on, so I pushed for one. He told me that he was too busy, that his life was too fast paced for anything other than living in the moment. That it was a burden for people to have expectations of him. Like me wanting a normal relationship was unreasonable!
So, now I’m left here, like so many of you, logically understanding that I just dodged a bullet by being out of this relationship, but emotionally drained, with a heart that just doesn’t seem to be able to let go. How long until I can get over this? That is the only question I have left. Because thanks to this site, and all of your stories, I have the answers to all the other questions. That is the only one left. How long until I feel like me again?
|
|
|
|
Post by Jaeger on Nov 18, 2016 22:01:47 GMT
Hi Lily, and thanks for sharing your story. Sadly, I can't say how long it will take, though the fact that you seem to be a secure type should help speed things along. I can only share how things went in my case, where I would say that the time from my ex breaking up our 12 year relationship (with her suggesting we could just keep living in the same house while she was pursuing a relationship with her coworker because it would be 'better for the children') until I started to feel like my old, secure self again was around 2 - 3 months. In that time, I went as close to no-contact as I possibly could. That took me from thinking how I could get her back to realizing, mentally and emotionally, that my life had only gotten better without her in it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lily on Nov 18, 2016 22:50:12 GMT
Thank you jaeger. I can see from what you say about wanting to continue to live together but separately the culmination of an avoidant’s non-communication strategy. Let’s not talk about the problems, but ignore them and shut down any feelings about them. This is probably what I’m finding difficult to come to terms with – and from what I read here – many do. The fact that you can never express how these things have made you feel and have them understand. The avoidant is incapable of understanding this. Their feelings are gone. They see you as nothing more than a buzzing fly and they want you as gone as their feelings.
The thing I don’t understand – though I recognize it as part of the dance – is why we let it get to that? I’ve read other people talking about an uneasiness – I felt this from the beginning – I remember saying to a friend – why does this feel so difficult? Shouldn’t it be easy? – while at the same time thinking how great everything was. I remember one night at his house, sitting alone out on his fire escape after he’d employed some subtle (except in retrospect) distancing techniques and gone to bed, telling myself that I had to get out of this relationship, and begging myself to remember this feeling of being alone in the relationship when I woke up the next day – because I knew when I woke up the next day, I would brush it off. And I did!
One of the hardest things to come to terms with is how stupid I feel. All those times he told me about past relationships and why they didn’t work. What was wrong with his exes. And of course, as we all do, I thought I was immune to this. Now I am them. Within an instant I have gone from someone he said he wanted in his life forever, to an imposition simply because I loved him. I think it is fair to say that right now, it makes me angry that he gets to go on his merry way, blaming me for the breakdown of this relationship (just because I wanted one) when it was him who took a wrecking ball to it. But worst of all, I let him do to it to me….
|
|
|
|
Post by Gay anxious on Nov 19, 2016 1:33:00 GMT
I hate to be so negative but does anyone really make it with a highly avoidant? We see countless stories on here of even secure people being completely distroyed by the experience. Even a few people that manage to make it work, don't have the constant fighting like an anxious avoidant couple, basically show that one day the avoidant flips a switch and drops out years, sometimes decades down the road. I guess there is some selection bias going on, happy couples aren't likely to post on blogs about their experience. But I keep hearing how an avoidant can make a relationship work with a secure and that relationship satisfaction among these couples is identical to secure secure couples. But then everything says avoidants are over represented in the dating pool, report the lowest levels of happiness, and other things that seem irreconcilable with those findings. Is it that slight avoidants eventually realize they need to try more in relationships or just accept that they will have friction with anyone and work hard to keep someone happy in other ways? I know avoidants aren't evil, these are largely subconscious activities.
I just can't imagine who is happy with a highly avoidant with such treatment forever or who can actually make them happy.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lily on Nov 19, 2016 2:17:58 GMT
I think your comment on 'highly avoidant' is the pertinent part of the comment here. I think we've all experienced slightly avoidant traits at one point or another. My DA is 30, so it's still acceptable socially for him to be single. I expect that he will not end up a bachelor, but will feel the social pressure and settle down to have children. It is likely this relationship will last a while, but not forever. I feel sorry for this future unknown girl -- seriously he should come with a warning sign! He told me he has never had a relationship where he didn't feel trapped and have the overwhelming urge to run. He said he was able to subjugate that feeling for a time. Maybe these DAs just subjugate it for longer?
I wonder if some people enter into a relationship with a DA without experiencing a secure relationship, so think this is just the way things are? I can't speak to that, it is not my experience. I knew something was wrong from the get go. But denial is a pretty powerful thing, especially when you are falling for them!
|
|
katy
Sticky Post Powers
Posts: 147 
|
Post by katy on Nov 19, 2016 2:23:04 GMT
Lily,
You described the rollercoaster in such vivid detail. The fact that I got hooked on the craziness really bothered me too - I've never dealt with anything like that. I couldn't believe how affected I was - I was literally in tears a few times.
In May, I posted the following information which I found very helpful in understanding how avoidants get people hooked into their push/pull behavior. It was very helpful for me to realize that I wasn't totally crazy.
I saw this post on the Web site Limerence Experienced.
(tribes.tribe.net/limerence)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This post discusses how dealing with individuals who are erratic in their connections can actually biochemically make people very obsessed and preoccupied. Limerence is the ultimate in debilitating preoccupation. LO is the person with whom the Limerent is obsessed. Tennov is Dorothy Tennov who wrote the original source book on limerence.
I think that this is a very interesting discussion about how people, who can usually control their preoccupation when they are dealing with stable people, often really go downhill with erratic, avoidant people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm actually a clinical neuroscientist, and therefore have been trying to think about my own experience, as well as those I've read about, from the perspective of what I know about neuroscience ...
First, the primary ingredients that Tennov refers to: "hope and uncertainty," look exactly like what happens during operant conditioning experiments (rats, primates, and humans) under a "variable ratio schedule." If you give a cue and then consistently a reward, an animal will first be conditioned to pair the cue with the reward, but after a few trials during which the cue and reward don't pair, the animal quickly becomes deconditioned. However, if you give a cue that sometimes, but not always, is paired with a reward--and is done so in an unpredictable manner--then you very quickly *f* up the animal, who goes nuts in trying to predict the reward. That's what limerence seems to be: an initial attraction, combined with reward (reciprocation by the LO) that is offered on a variable ratio schedule.
The rats, primates, and humans in operant conditioning experiments with variable ratio schedules, show the crazy obsessive behavior not because they have "abnormal brain chemistry," but rather because it is actually the nature of the brain's reward circuit to break down in the face of unpredictable reward cues. In physics, there's a notion of falling and getting stuck in "local minima," (in dynamical systems, this would be called an "attractor") in which you're essentially trapped in a vicious cycle: the more unpredictable the reward cues, the more screwed up your behavior, and the more screwed up your behavior, the more unpredictable the reward cues. Once you're in that state, it takes something really catastrophic to knock you out: either the reward needs to stop (in which case the animal becomes deconditioned) or the unpredictability needs to stop (in which case the animal becomes normally conditioned). These, of course, correspond to starvation and reciprocation, two of the three strategies that Tennov suggests can work. By the way, I'm not speaking of an analogy here: from a purely physiological perspective the brain's reward circuit is actually a control circuit, and therefore does have the potential to get stuck in local minima, just like any electrical circuit. But again, I have to emphasize that this is not due to the brain's circuit not working properly, but rather an intact circuit getting caught in a loop due to a perfect storm that combines the "right" sexual chemistry between two people, as well as the fact that one of the pair responds and pulls back in an unpredictable way.
My second reason follows from the first. Just as crazy obsessive behavior can be reliably triggered with a variable ratio schedule is most animals, this is also true of most humans. One thing that Tennov makes clear is just how common the LE is. Moreover, while some people are serial limerents, the vast majority seem to have the experience only once, with one person. If limerence were truly due to abnormal brain chemistry, then you'd expect it to be consistent across most relationships, and yet that isn't the case: it's normally specific to ONE person...limerence is more likely to be the result of a normal reward circuit coupled with a shitty interpersonal dynamic ...
I hope this information helps.
Katy
|
|
|
|
Post by Gay anxious on Nov 19, 2016 2:43:36 GMT
Thanks lily,
I was already aware of the element of intermittent reward and how it creates an addiction in the preoccupied individual. Any clues as to why this doesn't seem to creat couples of two avoidants that are each addicted to the other? I guess maybe if both are intermittently rewarding and pulling away maybe there aren't enough successful noticings of the reward?
I find myself really wanting to know why avoidant avoidant couples are rare beyond the simple lack of "glue" explanation.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lily on Nov 19, 2016 2:47:47 GMT
Katy! Oh my god! This article was amazing! Thank you!!! This was exactly me. I couldn't understand why I was acting like a crazy person!! I tried so hard to deal with this by turning to my friends - but they didn't understand at all. I'd tell them stories of things that he'd do or say and they couldn't see how the pattern of behavior added up to me being a crazy person. One asked me - how many times a week would he have to contact you so that you would be happy - she didn't understand it wasn't the length of time - it was so much more subtle than that. i don't think anyone can understand unless they've been through it. Everything in me was telling me to run for my life, but then I'd be like Pavlov's dogs - going back for a pat on the head and thanking him for it! Ugh. Even now I feel the pull of him. I both loathe the next girl to fall into his web (because I want the promise of who he is back) and I ache for her (because I know that promise is a lie).
The only thing the article doesn't explain is how to jolt the reward circuit because right now I'm only out of this relationship through sheer will and self respect but I can imagine - like and addict - I will be yearning for his approval soon enough. Which seems totally ridiculous to me, but what can I say, I feel it...
|
|
|
|
Post by Lily on Nov 19, 2016 3:09:59 GMT
I have had some relationships that I've ended with feelings of avoidance - which is why I was able to explain so succinctly to my DA what was going on in his head - and I nailed it. Didn't help me though! But because of this I have some opinions on why an avoidant and an avoidant won't make it. Logically it makes sense - they would never pressure each other to share feelings, would allow each other tons of space - which they love! But really - this is not what the avoidant really wants - deep down. My DA is like this - he wants the connection. He swings from being a loner (read workaholic/exercise-aholic) to being a serial manogamist. He's searching and searching - he wants the connection, but a DA could never provide what he wants. The spark would never be there to draw him in in the first place. And if there was a connection, however tenuous because of lack of glue? He'd still feel the urge to run. Because eventually, the relationship would become too intimate, just because of the nature of romantic relationships. Even with a DA. He has a pretty low tolerance for intimacy. His favorite thing was to tell me (god knows why he's proud of this) that people have told him he's the friendliest closed off person they've ever met (i.e. he seems chatty and open but in reality has never told them one important or personal fact).
The shut down of feelings in a DA feels real. They cannot force themselves to feel once it has been triggered. We keep looking at them through our lens. We need to stop that. I need to keep reminding myself of this. It is the only thing that will keep me from showing up at his door like a crazy person! He will do this to anyone that feels threatening to him - whether they're DA or not - put two of them together and sooner or later one or both will be running for the hills
|
|
katy
Sticky Post Powers
Posts: 147
|
Post by katy on Nov 19, 2016 3:24:33 GMT
Lily,
I remember one time literally sobbing about no response to a text message. Then, suddenly I heard my message alert and everything was wonderful. It was totally sick and crazy. I found the most difficult part was not having an opportunity to even figure out what happened - he was at his most erratic and non-responsive as things ground down.
It took months of No Contact to really be able to integrate into my mind the realization that the initial charm was very superficial and that the real person makes me very sad and anxious.
I found the best info about No Contact on narcissistic abuse Web sights (avoidants and narcissists seem to all be on the same continuum):
Melanie Tonia Evans Kim Saeed Just search No Contact and Narcissistic Abuse and you'll find other good info
Also, Dr. Helen Fisher has many excellent articles on recovery from love rejection. She also advocates No Contact.
It was very difficult to really internalize how false the whole thing had been. I'm very intelligent, had successfully interacted with many people because I was a consultant who worked all over the USA, and have deal well with most people in my life. How in the world I got sucked into the false craziness was beyond belief.
But, finally I began to see the light and began to lose interest. I'm sure you'll get there too.
Best wishes as you work though all of this.
Katy |
|
katy
Sticky Post Powers
Posts: 147
|
Post by katy on Nov 19, 2016 3:26:04 GMT
Add Savannah Grey, Esteemology to the list of really good Web sites. |
|
katy
Sticky Post Powers
Posts: 147
|
Post by katy on Nov 19, 2016 3:29:25 GMT
Lily,
The avoidant I knew fully admitted that he's an avoidant and he cheerfully told me how he confuses people because he's so friendly but he never lets anybody get close.
Katy |
|
|
|
Post by Lily on Nov 19, 2016 3:46:09 GMT
Katy - yes! Literally sobbing about lack of contract then - ding ding - message - and all is right with the world. God it really is sick. I agree - I'm a smart, successful woman. How could this guy reduce me to this?!
The only thing he has never done - right to the end - is say anything negative about me. Even at the end he told me how great he thought I was, but that he couldn't do it. I almost wish he had been verbally mean to me - because in the end - after all the conditioning - I couldn't let him go. I knew I needed to push him to tell me it was not going to work, so I did. That made me feel weak and pathetic - and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I knew logically I needed to save myself and get out - but could not bring myself to actually do it....
I guess from what everyone tells me I've got a very fun couple of months ahead of me as I work through this. It is interesting that you say the charm was superficial. Was my entire relationship a lie? I remember a conversation with my DA where he told me his parents had high expectations of him and he learned very quickly that he had to put on a facade to please them. And that much of his time was spent thinking of ways to please me. I asked him was anything he did or say real and he said he'd never lied to me. I didn't really know how to take that. From that moment i always wondered if he was saying what was real or what he thought I wanted him to say. I would hate to think that everything was a lie. But maybe this is a truth I need to come to...
|
|
|
|
Post by Lily on Nov 19, 2016 3:57:27 GMT
Yes! Cheerfully admitting avoidant tendencies! Why weren't the alarm bells going off in our heads!! I guess because we thought the fact that they were sharing these tidbits meant we were in the inner circle and immune to them. Not so!
He proudly told me - I never initiate contact with anyone. Ever. Except you sometimes.
Like that was some great concession to me. He thought he was being nice by 'sometimes' contacting me - and in reality it was killing me (push/pull)!
The worst were the constant excuses. Always making plans and then him breaking them with vague excuses. Ugh. At least it wasn't personal. I saw him do it to everyone. I really think he wanted to do these things when he made the plans - but when it came to actually doing them - he couldn't bear it and instead of being honest it would be - too busy, I forgot (like that's better than the truth!) or the silent treatment.
And my favorite - he said - silence is my 'MO'. Flag after flag and I ignored them all. At least now I understand that I was conditioned to. Thanks!
|
|
|
|
Post by Gay anxious on Nov 19, 2016 4:00:17 GMT
I think it's best to not view all avoidants as monsters. I think they are just damaged in a way that makes them hard to empathize with. The anxious are damaged also and we often hurt avoidants we are with, but it is easier to empathize with us. We just want to be loved and do crazy things when we have to endure easy things to get it.
My relationship with my father has gotten a lot better since my breakup and in talking with me he has realized he was is an avoidant. Which I guess answers my earlier question as he and my mother were very happy. She was almost certainly secure, and my father was prolly not as avoidant as my ex, although in his old age he has become a stereotypical hermit that will prolly die alone. It seems an avoidant must partner with someone that has gotten to know them as a friend for years and therefore accepted the slow pace of learning who the avoidant was as there was no expectation of disclosure.
BUT, my mother did become ill within 15 years of marriage and died of the illness. So who can say if they would have made it after I was out of the house.
He went on to date an anxious women and have a volatile relationship with her for over a decade until she also died of illness. I don't believe he ever set out to deceive or hurt her, he mentions feeling a powerful wave of passion for her in which he was inspired to write her poems. But his need for space and independence prolly caused him to hurt her, and started a cycle he couldn't possibly predict.
|
|
