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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2016 19:26:24 GMT
Hi Mary, The psychological superiority thing is merely something I have read, I doubt all DA's look to have this with their partners. You're right there are extremes. And as an anxious I admit I went to far at times. Once when I knew my boyfriend was home I called nonstop for 15 minutes. When he finally answered he asked 'can I not go to the bathroom?' To which I replied 'yes and since I know you are wearing pants when you go to the bathroom your phone should still be in your pocket'. I realize that is ridiculous but at the time it seemed normal to me. My real thinking was well I know he is home so I'm going to call until he either hears his phone, stops ignoring me, or becomes available. It never occurred to me that the phone going off for 15 minutes would be distracting or that seeing I had called 19 times would be overwhelming cause in my mind if he isn't picking up hen he must be otherwise engaged and not bothered by the calls. I don't think my DA responded so infrequently to maintain control, but distance maybe. It was definetely excessive but if it bothered me so much I probably should have ended the relationship once I had expressed how much it bothered me and he refused to do anythjng to change. It just seemed small to end the relationship over but there were times it sent me over the edge and no amount of will power or distraction could consol me. Dating a DA has taught me that it doesn't matter how much you love someone or how small a problem seems, if the relationship makes you unhinged or a person you don't want to be it needs to be ended. I think when an anxious and avoidant date they need to through out the ideas of 'normal' and 'should' and focus on what they need and can provide. Unfortunately I think this will usually result in seeing needs and abilities to respect those needs are irreconcilable. I agree with you. They don't call it a trap for nothing. It would take 2 very self aware and a lot of work/compromise on both sides. In the beginning, I think it's an exaggerated form of the honeymoon phase that everyone has. |
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Post by Jaeger on Nov 22, 2016 11:57:00 GMT
There will always be exceptions, though these only confirm the rule. Seeking psychological superiority is a trait widely exhibited by Dismissive Avoidants, tying in to their elevated artificial self-image. This was definitely the case with my ex-girlfriend. Fault finding and other distancing strategies logically flow forth from it, as is usually evidenced by research. I agree that leaping to conclusions is a bad thing, Mary, but your presence on these forums and willingness to even acknowledge and discuss the topic of Dismissive Avoidance, coupled with your having gone through extensive therapy already makes me consider your views as those of a very small percentage of exceptions and not necessarily the larger group of Dismissive Avoidants as a whole.
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Post by trixie5179 on Nov 22, 2016 14:22:10 GMT
Jaeger,
What do you mean by 'psychological superiority'? I was thinking you might be referring to DA's mindset of "I don't need a relationship, I'm fine without one"...when, in my experience with my ex DA, it seems more like the reality is 'I'm without a relationship because it is very difficult for me to have one, so I've shut out the possibility of having one.' I realize all DA's may not be like this, but this is definitely how my ex is.
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Post by Jaeger on Nov 22, 2016 17:33:09 GMT
Trixie, citing Jeb's book here:
"The fearful-avoidant (sometimes called anxious -avoidant) share an underlying distrust of caregiving others with the dismissive-avoidant, but have not developed the armor of high self -esteem to allow them to do without attachment; they realize the need for and want intimacy, but when they are in a relationship that starts to get close, their fear and mistrust surfaces and they distance."
Going by your story, your ex sounds more the fearful than the dismissive type. What I was referring to as the need to feel psychologically superior is what the above text refers to as 'the armor of high self-esteem' displayed in many avoidants. This isn't actual self-esteem but compensation for a lack of it.
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Post by trixie5179 on Nov 22, 2016 17:42:22 GMT
Jaeger,
Ah, ok, I see. Yes, looking back, I feel my ex was definitely fearful-avoidant in the relationship. I know he has the reputation among his friends (who he actually doesn't let get to know him deep down) as being dismissive of relationships and saying he just 'doesn't have time,' or energy or the desire for one, etc. In that sense I'd say he's dismissive, however, and does have low self esteem when it comes down to it. It's like his public self vs. his private self, I think. But yes, in our relationship he was definitely fearful av.
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lily
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Post by lily on Nov 22, 2016 17:57:53 GMT
Trixie - it sounds like you are describing my DA. Definitely showed traits of fearful avoidant within the relationship - but now, as what he always says to the outside world - he proclaims that relationships just hold him back from everything he really wants to do and he's better without them. Within it, he was constantly struggling for my approval - which he always had, and questioning in one way or another why he couldn't make relationships work. I think he eventually puts them in the too hard basket then flips to - I don't actually need this (or anyone) in my life.
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Post by trixie5179 on Nov 22, 2016 18:12:36 GMT
Lily,
Yep, sounds like my experience, as well! As he was breaking up with me, he expressed that basically he couldn't have a relationship and also do all the things and projects and wanted to do. He said "people think they can have it all...but they can't" I was totally speechless to that. It is definitely like a switch gets flipped, and we are left shocked and so confused.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 18:28:59 GMT
Ah ok, I never saw this as "psychological superiority", but yes DA's think they are better off without attachment. Just because I don't need an attachment though, I don't know how this translates to superiority? Yes, I can forego a relationship, but I don't think I am psychologically superior because of it.
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Post by Jaeger on Nov 22, 2016 21:01:21 GMT
Psychological superiority in my view is putting down a partner, assigning blame to them to be able to ignore or downplay the influence the DA themselves play in causing problems within a relationship. Another quote that sums this up for me:
"The avoidant looks for reasons not to admire and feel close to their partner. This sitting in judgment over even trivial stylistic issues gives them a feeling of control; they consciously believe they are distancing themselves not because they are afraid of being dependent and hurt (the real subconscious reason), but because their partner is so flawed and really not all that great. This deprecation of a partner or spouse is normally (and wisely) kept internal, but in later stages of relationship conflict, the avoidant may start running down his partner verbally and try to get more distance by intentionally causing distress"
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 22:43:36 GMT
Psychological superiority in my view is putting down a partner, assigning blame to them to be able to ignore or downplay the influence the DA themselves play in causing problems within a relationship. Another quote that sums this up for me: "The avoidant looks for reasons not to admire and feel close to their partner. This sitting in judgment over even trivial stylistic issues gives them a feeling of control; they consciously believe they are distancing themselves not because they are afraid of being dependent and hurt (the real subconscious reason), but because their partner is so flawed and really not all that great. This deprecation of a partner or spouse is normally (and wisely) kept internal, but in later stages of relationship conflict, the avoidant may start running down his partner verbally and try to get more distance by intentionally causing distress" I do see your perspective. I never really saw this as psychological superiority. In my relationships with anxious, the fault finding was equal and I was much more verbally abused, because they were always more emotive, expressive and I can "take it". I didn't take it to heart and the more calm I was, the more hurtful they tried to be to "get through" I guess. Even through all the verbal abuse I received, it never crossed my mind that either of us thought we were superior. Even before therapy, I didn't think any of it was intentional. It was just one big cycle. I find that both sides downplay their part in causing problems in the relationship, which I think to a large degree happens with everyone, even secures. One's own perspective seems more "right". |
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lily
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Post by lily on Nov 23, 2016 2:34:49 GMT
Mary - I can definitely see how you wouldn't see this as psychological superiority.
It is true to say that at the end of my relationship, when I decided I couldn't take the distancing and push/pull anymore, I was still willing to negotiate for a resolution whereas he decided that he didn't want anyone in his life. From my perspective I felt like he saw this as him being strong and me being weak. I just assumed from his attitude and the things he said to me that this is how he felt. but now that I think about it, after reading yours and everyone else's comments - I think he probably didn't even think about it one way or another. He never had empathy - as we often discussed that he was confused by the emotional lives of others - and also confused about his own. So I expect that he likely leaves these things totally unexamined and doesn't consider me one way or another, so to him it wouldn't feel like superiority at all. It would just come down to - that's just the way things are.
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Post by gaynxious on Nov 24, 2016 5:19:46 GMT
Is it common for avoidants to set traps or tests for their partners? I have read that that is more an anxious ploy to prove that their partners love them.
When my ex and I were about to move in together from a two year stint of being long distance we had been having problems for about a year. He injured himself at the gym while I was finishing up a job interview. I had gotten the job so I answered the phone incase it was an emergency. I told him to go to the ER, asked what hospital he was going to, and I would finish up as soon as I could. Once I was done with the negotiations I called him and asked if he wanted me to come and wait with him for the doctor. He replied, 'you don't have to', so I coordinated with his roommate about picking him up from the ER. I rode with his roommate to get him.
Later he said it would have meant a lot of I had come to wait with him. I told him I asked him if he wanted me there and I would have been happy to have come but I didn't want to try and find him and deal with coordinating with his roommate or getting ubers if he didn't want me there. I said I didn't appreciate him setting test for me, that I wanted him to tell me what he wants instead of reading his mind.
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lily
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Post by lily on Nov 24, 2016 16:46:14 GMT
I can't speak to the specific dynamic between the two of you, but in my experience, I would be surprised to see a DA play games. In my experience they are either unaware of their own needs or unable to articulate them/tell people they are close to what they need. I would guess that may have been the situation here. Perhaps he didn't understand that he wanted you there, or couldn't bring him to tell you at the time?
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lily
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Post by lily on Nov 25, 2016 0:43:16 GMT
Ugh. Not sure what to do. Have gone no contact with DA since 'the discussion' on him being burdened by a relationship. And I wake up this morning to an email from him. From the looks of it, it is a continuation of an amusing email discussion we had been having before everything fell apart. He's very good at this - pretending nothing serious has actually happened and resetting - I guess it's the push/pull. So now I'm sitting here with an email in my inbox that feels like a bomb - that I can neither bring myself to delete nor read and I'm teetering on the edge of the distracting push/pull feeling again  |
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Post by gaynxious on Nov 25, 2016 0:57:49 GMT
I say read it just to know but stay resolute. Unless he says he is going to therapy it's just words. He might mean it. I meant it everytime I promised never to yell again, I meant it when I said I would be less clingy. But I couldn't follow through and neither can he. We are wired to behave the way we do and only intense effort and help can change that. If he won't get help he won't change. I feel avoidant's especially can't change on their own because there perceived self sufficiency is part of the problem.
It's just like the smile I got the other day. It indicates there may still be feelings but feelings don't change anything. We have learned that the hard way.
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