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Post by Gay anxious on Nov 19, 2016 4:01:24 GMT
^Sorry, do crazy things when we must endure *crazy things to receive love.^
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Post by Lily on Nov 19, 2016 4:20:40 GMT
Oh I certainly don't see him as a monster - excuse my bad communication if it seems that way. I see him hurting me over and over as entirely unintentional. But also inevitable. My anger is toward myself. I saw all the flags - he even told me them himself - and I was unable to pull away! I have to think the feelings were real on his part. He recorded and sent me many songs he performed for me over the months. And his need for my acceptance of this was almost childlike. and I always gladly gave it.
on the DA having to have a initial friendship over many years - this rings true to me. I have a friend who I have recently come to understand is without a doubt DA. We've discussed this at length lately and she's described her internal life to me. Our closeness now I can only attribute to our ten year friendship that developed very very slowly into what it is now - where she lets me in. Part of the reason for this? I think it's because I never knocked on the door. The choice was entirely hers.
I do have a question - how do you think an avoidant can be hurt by an anxious? (You mentioned in your post it happens)
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katy
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Post by katy on Nov 19, 2016 4:37:52 GMT
Lily,
The inner circle struck a chord with me. My suspicion is that creating the aura that there is a strong bond and that you are in the inner circle, but, at the same time, throwing in little crumbs of doubt, is the essence of the avoidant push / pull.
It sounds so simple to somebody who has not been dragged into one of these states to just see the reality and walk away. But, when you're in the middle of it, it's very difficult to see the big picture. I think that when you get further away from it, you'll be able to better see the patterns instead of focusing on this conversation or that text message.
What I see, as I look back with knowledge that I have now that I didn't have then, is a person who probably did like me and did find me interesting, but who insisted on controlling everything - information, timing of contacts, what would be discussed, etc., etc.
After getting so easily sucked in, I'm much more careful about what I believe than I was before. Now that I know that this type of personality can exist, I'm definitely looking for and paying attention to all red flags.
Good luck getting your life back to normal.
Katy
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Post by Gay anxious on Nov 19, 2016 4:43:07 GMT
Perhaps I am generalizing my experience but I believe an inherit part of the trauma in an anxious avoidant trap is the cycle of triggered insecurities. The anxious isn't just a needy victim that is never loved. We resort to protest and disregard the avoidant's personal boundaries. We excuse it because the avoidant's boundaries are so unusual we may forget them or resent their needs for them. But this is the same illegitimate on of their needs that they do to ours. In my relationship, I used anger and yelling as protest to get my needs met. Why? Partially because I am impatient and I found my avoidant particularly annoying and difficult in addition to the distancing. Also, it worked. My avoidant grew up in shone with lots of anger and yelling,he was conflict avoidant. I yelled and I got my way. I yelled and he wanted to make up or console me. I yelled and he manipulated me with sex, or maybe I made a trauma bond with him or brought up unresolved issues with his parents and so that is when he felt close to me.
About relationship was falling apart I was very controlling and manipulative, common of anxious types.
In my dad's situation he felt constantly nagged and resented, unheard, his needs were never important only his anxious partners. The anxious are prone to seeing our needs as so important we must focus on them selfishly to have them fulfilled.
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katy
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Post by katy on Nov 19, 2016 5:30:39 GMT
Gay anxious,
I think that there are two different types of issues with avoidants - long term, conflict-filled relationships and initially charming avoidants who suddenly become very rejecting and often disappear.
It sounds as though you had one of the long-term, conflict-filled relationships. I think that when a person deals with an avoidant over a long period of time, it can erode that person's security and make them much more anxious. I'm sure that you didn't purposefully torment him - rejecting, dismissive behavior can make anybody feel really terrible and cause that person to become overly reactive.
I didn't have the same dynamic. I dealt with a person who, during the charm phase, wove a web of approval and praise. He solicited my attention and friendship and always responded when I contacted him. I suppose that being an avoidant he wasn't able to be open and clear with me, but if I had had a clue what his true personality needs were, I would have changed my entire behavior with him. As I said to Lily, after dealing with all of this, I'm much more aware of subtle red flags that I see with anybody whom I meet.
Best wishes,
Katy
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Post by Gay anxious on Nov 19, 2016 6:21:06 GMT
Yes I have seen some what two divergent narratives. The serial monogamist that comes on strong then disappears. And the DA that prolly truly wants a real relationship but has no idea how to do it and can't see how hurtful their behavior can be.
At times I wholeheartedly did want to hurt him. Not at first. It started as lapses in temper control. Fights meant to illicit attention or make up sex. But then it became revenge. I wanted to hurt him as badly as he hurt me all the time without seeming to mean to. Then it was compensation. I stayed because I could get my way on everything else. I basically fed my own ego off of his to make up for the hurt and resentment I felt at not getting enough intimacy. Ultimately, I found the relationship 'worked' better if I loved him less than he loved me. Looking back, I think at one point my resentment made him chase me. We were spending very little time together due to work and school, I resolved that if he wouldn't join me in a social life, of which he had none, I was going to engage in one without him. I still loved him, but less, and in a way that made me feel in control and resent him less. And that made him chase me. He actually came to me for intimacy, and I would push him away. I didn't need him, and I did, I wanted him, but I knew wanting him would mean having less from him.
Then he changed, become more confident, tried more with my friends, got a social life, got friends of his own. And I fell more in love with him than ever. Things got better then suddenly started to deteriorate. Then when we finally saw each other everyday, with some added life stessors and some new relationship problems, it all fell apart rather quickly.
I most certainly hurt him, but I realize that hurting him was the only way I could stay. He hurt me so much so constantly that hurting him was my only means of coping. Not the healthiest, and certainly not something I am proud of. But I think any long term relationship with a DA eventually brings out the worst in you, unless you are a very special person.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 7:02:14 GMT
I hate to be so negative but does anyone really make it with a highly avoidant? We see countless stories on here of even secure people being completely distroyed by the experience. Even a few people that manage to make it work, don't have the constant fighting like an anxious avoidant couple, basically show that one day the avoidant flips a switch and drops out years, sometimes decades down the road. I guess there is some selection bias going on, happy couples aren't likely to post on blogs about their experience. But I keep hearing how an avoidant can make a relationship work with a secure and that relationship satisfaction among these couples is identical to secure secure couples. But then everything says avoidants are over represented in the dating pool, report the lowest levels of happiness, and other things that seem irreconcilable with those findings. Is it that slight avoidants eventually realize they need to try more in relationships or just accept that they will have friction with anyone and work hard to keep someone happy in other ways? I know avoidants aren't evil, these are largely subconscious activities. I just can't imagine who is happy with a highly avoidant with such treatment forever or who can actually make them happy. I think there is a bias on the internet, like with many things. Complaints are over represented and happy couples aren't searching for forums. I am in a happy relationship, yet I have slip ups, so I am always searching for answers to learn more about myself. I dated many anxious people in my past and it never worked out well. I am now with a secure and things are slowly changing for me, but it's a very slow process. My take on it is you have to find a VERY secure person. I have found that his stability makes me feel more secure and I get triggered less. Through this I have been able to learn so much about what has triggered me in the past and how to make relationships work. I see that many people say than an avoidant can make anyone anxious/more anxious and this just isn't true. In the beginning, I did all my usual avoidant things and my partner never became anxious and has always been unwavering. I think this was the key for me. Over time, I realized he wasn't going to change and it tempered my impulse reactions. My reactions get less and less over time. |
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clare
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Post by clare on Nov 19, 2016 15:50:06 GMT
Wow Lily, I just read your whole story, which you expressed in much more detail than I did mine, and OMG, so unbelievably similar. The bit about the uneasiness from the beginning, that is so incredibly true. Like you, I discussed it with a friend and he told me I was maybe being too clingy or insecure but I kept checking in with myself and I wasn't, he was putting up barriers from the beginning, even while chasing. I once described the whole thing (and this is when things were 'good') as though it felt like I was dragging a bag of cement up a hill. Or, like having to fill in the blanks.
When my guy asked me to go to his house in Italy, I thought I'd got commitment from him, and I had in no way been trying to get commitment nor had I offered it other than being available and engaged, always making time for him. I'd been very cool, not one bit pushy, nothing at all. That's what's left me with so much emotional turmoil - it was him who upped the ante, so to speak, and not me. If I'd pushed to make things more serious then I could have understood, but he did it then ran away. And like you, I felt I became just a nuisance to him after that.
You have seriously made me rethink my plan of making one last attempt at contact. After he dumped me by text, I then sent him an email, explaining how he'd upset me in a very clear, non-blaming, non-needy sort of way, said that the last thing in the world I'd wanted to ever do was put pressure on him and I wish he'd just spoken to me and told me what was going on rather than just withdraw and ignore me, leaving me to wonder. I then left the door open to meet up as friends given we'd known each other so long and have many ex-colleagues in common. His response seemed thoughtful, apologetic, and blamed everything on his business and health problems and said that yes, he did want to meet. That somehow took me back to that state that you describe, where your anxiety is somewhat alleviated and you feel that you're still in the game. That was five weeks ago and nothing. I could possibly push him to meet me again but to what end? You are right, I'm going to maintain no contact.
Thank you so much for sharing your story, the similarities are astounding and you've really helped me.
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Post by Lily on Nov 19, 2016 17:35:25 GMT
Clare -
Yes - your story to hit a nerve with me too - it felt like I was reading my own!
And yes - he upped the ante. I was quite content remaining as friends and building things slowly, but he pushed for more. That is the complete irony of this situation we find ourselves in... once I agreed to go to Central America - well, the first time I brought it up he really acted like I was imposing on him - as if he wasn't the one who suggested it.
Yes - definitely felt like I was pushing a bag of cement up a hill from the beginning. What I don't understand is why I didn't jump ship right then. I even thought it a couple of times. But it was like I was under some weird spell.
I think you are right maintaining no contact. I know that it is hard. But take solace in the fact that there is someone in North America whose heart goes out to you as she is feeling exactly the same way. I'm having difficulty with the dissonance between what I know is best for me and what my heart wants. Ive never felt conflicted like this before. I really liked the article Katy shared about reward circuitry. Rings so true to me.
I'm here if you need to chat!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 17:43:28 GMT
Katy - yes! Literally sobbing about lack of contract then - ding ding - message - and all is right with the world. God it really is sick. I agree - I'm a smart, successful woman. How could this guy reduce me to this?! The only thing he has never done - right to the end - is say anything negative about me. Even at the end he told me how great he thought I was, but that he couldn't do it. I almost wish he had been verbally mean to me - because in the end - after all the conditioning - I couldn't let him go. I knew I needed to push him to tell me it was not going to work, so I did. That made me feel weak and pathetic - and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I knew logically I needed to save myself and get out - but could not bring myself to actually do it.... I guess from what everyone tells me I've got a very fun couple of months ahead of me as I work through this. It is interesting that you say the charm was superficial. Was my entire relationship a lie? I remember a conversation with my DA where he told me his parents had high expectations of him and he learned very quickly that he had to put on a facade to please them. And that much of his time was spent thinking of ways to please me. I asked him was anything he did or say real and he said he'd never lied to me. I didn't really know how to take that. From that moment i always wondered if he was saying what was real or what he thought I wanted him to say. I would hate to think that everything was a lie. But maybe this is a truth I need to come to... I think it's clear you weren't right for each other. I don't know why you think it was all a lie since he didn't change even in the end, he still thought you were great. I don't know why that is hard to believe? You can both be great people, but it just doesn't work in the end. His style didn't work for you and yours didn't work for him. I don't think that his wanting to please you means he lied or that your relationship wasn't real. It's very common for people to want to please their partner. I can relate to putting on a facade for your parents. Why? Cause when you are a child, you are a "prisoner" and there is no way out. You put on a front to survive. There is not the same dynamic when you are an adult, so it's not necessarily that he put on a facade for you. It seems to be common that others think that when an avoidant withdraws, they become another person or that their personality isn't real. All people have many sides and they can all be real. I don't know why people think that a person should be "one way" all the time or it's just fake. Avoidants withdraw when things aren't working out and it's a coping mechanism. Some people kick and scream, some people get anxious, and some people people withdraw. All styles can be difficult to deal with, and all are difficult to understand by others with different styles. |
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Post by Gay anxious on Nov 19, 2016 18:11:22 GMT
Hi Mary,
I think many of us believe the avoidant lied to us because of the unconscious nature of their actions they don't jive with what they say or even what they communicate nonverbally.
For instance, my avoidant would tell me he loved me more than ever and that he wanted to get married. But then when things got tough and he would complain to my friends about how I was 'losing it over the thought of losing him' then they would say well you have been together for 10 years and his automatic response was always 'well 5 of that was long distance' as if a five year relationship wouldn't be something to be depressed over as its failing. His saying this is a common distancing technique. By qualifying our time together he is telling himself I don't mean that much to him, so that he feels less pain over it ending. But that is at odds with him telling me he loves me more than ever and wanting to get married. It's not a lie per se but there is an incongruence between what they say and do when they are triggered and it feels like one has to be a lie. I suppose it's more likely that each is true at the time, despite being antithetical.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 18:17:28 GMT
Thanks lily, I was already aware of the element of intermittent reward and how it creates an addiction in the preoccupied individual. Any clues as to why this doesn't seem to creat couples of two avoidants that are each addicted to the other? I guess maybe if both are intermittently rewarding and pulling away maybe there aren't enough successful noticings of the reward? I find myself really wanting to know why avoidant avoidant couples are rare beyond the simple lack of "glue" explanation. I posed this same question as to why anxious anxious couples don't seem to be common. I didn't get too much of an answer. I don't know the answer to either, but I think the answer lies somewhere in why anxious avoidant couples often times attract but don't work. I think anxious avoidant couples attract, because they each have something the other needs, but the presentation of needs collide. I have not dated avoidants,but I have dated plenty of anxious. I see it as I wanted to please and fulfill my partner's needs completely and it seemed the anxious wanted to get their needs for love, connection fulfilled. It seems simple, right? The further I got into the relationships, I could see that no matter what I did, their need seemed to be never ending, like trying to fill a large hole with a handfull of sand. In the end, I felt like I could never fill that hole, could never please them so I gave up. The more the anxious person makes it known that I can't fill their need, the more I withdraw because I don't want to feel bad that I can't please them. Maybe the same styles don't attract, because their underlying needs are the same? |
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katy
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Post by katy on Nov 19, 2016 18:20:10 GMT
Please let me chime in as number three. As I look back, there was a similar cognitive dissonance. The situation was different in that I was charmed and solicited as a good friend instead of a love interest but I still always had a little voice in the back of my head wondering. He was extremely gracious to me and always appeared friendly and open to my husband.
I found the avoidant extremely intelligent and creative, we were both writers, and both of us seemed to have very similar approaches to the world. We decided to work on a joint writing project which was fantastic. I don't find too many people in daily life who seem to "get" me as much as he did and talking to him about his business and how he had conceptualized it and had grown it was fascinating. The spell of approval was cast and then the push / pull began. I'm now sure that the constant subtle rejections and then seemingly sincere reconciliations opened up old feelings of being rejected. By the end, when I knew that this was crazy and I had to stop associating with him, I was literally physically sick.
I think that the avoidant dance of approval, (in my case, I now know, phony) openness, subtle rejections, seemingly sincere apologies, and logical excuses can make a secure person crazy. In the middle of the experience, there is nothing to grasp onto to say that this person is really strange and damaging. It's only when you're finally away from them long enough that you can see the pattern of their push / pull and you can begin to understand that there really isn't going to be a good future with this person. I think the difficult part is to understand that their essential nature is not the initial charm, it's the charm which is always going to be accompanied by the damaging push / pull.
Katy
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Post by Gay anxious on Nov 19, 2016 18:53:54 GMT
I posed this same question as to why anxious anxious couples don't seem to be common. I didn't get too much of an answer. From what I have read anxious-anxious couples are more common than avoidant-avoidant couples and are more likely to be successful. They can work because they both want a high degree of closeness but the trouble comes that they are prone to jump to conclusions and the protest behavior can get way out of hand. It's tough to satisfy someone's needs when your own are unmet. I imagine couples that make this work do so by realizing when the other needs reassurance and since they want closeness also it isn't a big deal to provide it. My guess is that while I am an anxious I am actually a rather independent person. I always though it odd when couples did everything together but I was really hurt when my avoidant wanted to do so much without me. If I dated an anxious I might actually become avoidant in the relationship out of feeling overly needed and burdened. And on your note about anxious being too needy... I think we recognize we tend to be needy but we honestly don't find the things we initially want to be that demanding. Hold my hand in public. Dance with me when we go out. It seems the avoidant wants to make us happy but doesn't realize what we really want. We want closeness, not favors. My avoidant loved to make me happy by being sexually serving, affectionate, buying me gifts, doing things for me. But the things I actually wanted, tell me about your feelings, have a non-sexual intimate moment with me, have a meaning ful conversation with me on a regular basis was just too much for him.I think the avoidant tries to over compensate for this and feels overwhelmed. The anxious chooses to enjoy these things and recognizes they are signs of love and is placated, but ultimately unfufilled. On so many practical levels, my life was better with my ex in it. But being with him made me so unhappy to the point of being suicidal at the worst of it. And I think this dichotomy is what makes everything so confusing for us. How can someone be so nice and giving and at the same time so rejecting and uncaring? It's a mismatch of needs and communication styles. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 18:58:56 GMT
Hi Mary, I think many of us believe the avoidant lied to us because of the unconscious nature of their actions they don't jive with what they say or even what they communicate nonverbally. For instance, my avoidant would tell me he loved me more than ever and that he wanted to get married. But then when things got tough and he would complain to my friends about how I was 'losing it over the thought of losing him' then they would say well you have been together for 10 years and his automatic response was always 'well 5 of that was long distance' as if a five year relationship wouldn't be something to be depressed over as its failing. His saying this is a common distancing technique. By qualifying our time together he is telling himself I don't mean that much to him, so that he feels less pain over it ending. But that is at odds with him telling me he loves me more than ever and wanting to get married. It's not a lie per se but there is an incongruence between what they say and do when they are triggered and it feels like one has to be a lie. I suppose it's more likely that each is true at the time, despite being antithetical. Ah this makes so much sense! I do this too and what I say does change with how things are going. If I smell of whiff of things going south, I put up the defense of "I don't care". My partner doesn't truly understand the mechanism, but he sees it as changing my mind, rather than a lie. He understands that things change if I'm uncomfortable. I am saying what I think at the time, so each is not a lie, but I can see where you are coming from. |
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