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Post by azgirl on Nov 20, 2016 0:02:03 GMT
Lily! When I read your post below it was if I had wrote it. I had a recent short relationship with someone that opened my eyes to avoidant attachment - how I never learned of it until now shocks me. I am usually a confident, friendly, happy girl - but this experience threw me way off. You want to shake them and say, "Stop it! You're really messing this good thing up". Reading this forum and other articles out there have helped me know I am not alone, that this stuff is real  . I have had some relationships that I've ended with feelings of avoidance - which is why I was able to explain so succinctly to my DA what was going on in his head - and I nailed it. Didn't help me though! But because of this I have some opinions on why an avoidant and an avoidant won't make it. Logically it makes sense - they would never pressure each other to share feelings, would allow each other tons of space - which they love! But really - this is not what the avoidant really wants - deep down. My DA is like this - he wants the connection. He swings from being a loner (read workaholic/exercise-aholic) to being a serial manogamist. He's searching and searching - he wants the connection, but a DA could never provide what he wants. The spark would never be there to draw him in in the first place. And if there was a connection, however tenuous because of lack of glue? He'd still feel the urge to run. Because eventually, the relationship would become too intimate, just because of the nature of romantic relationships. Even with a DA. He has a pretty low tolerance for intimacy. His favorite thing was to tell me (god knows why he's proud of this) that people have told him he's the friendliest closed off person they've ever met (i.e. he seems chatty and open but in reality has never told them one important or personal fact). The shut down of feelings in a DA feels real. They cannot force themselves to feel once it has been triggered. We keep looking at them through our lens. We need to stop that. I need to keep reminding myself of this. It is the only thing that will keep me from showing up at his door like a crazy person! He will do this to anyone that feels threatening to him - whether they're DA or not - put two of them together and sooner or later one or both will be running for the hills |
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Post by Lily on Nov 20, 2016 18:51:54 GMT
Azgirl - I know what you mean - I've never encountered this before either. I think the difficult thing to come to terms with is that nothing changed in the relationship except they suddenly disappeared. I think this is why we are left wondering what went on - not because they necessarily lied but because of the inconsistency in behaviour. I think it's safe to say most of us are used to people acting consistently in our lives which lends their behavior a level of authenticity that we find lacking in our dealings with an avoidant.
Clare - your story about him coming on strong and texting right after you got home from date then falling off the face of the planet sounds all too familiar to me. I think that's why it's so difficult to process. I certainly don't expect certain behaviors from people, but when they show my who they are and set up what I expect to be a patten of behavior from the get go - I am left wondering what's going on when they then behave inconsistently. I always felt like I was anchorless - what was I actually to expect? And was it my fault that everything was so inconsistent? No wonder we felt crazy. Nothing ever added up.
Katy - just wanted to let you know that your words and stories scattered throughout this forum have been a great help to me. I'm still thinking a support group would be lovely
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Post by Gay anxious on Nov 21, 2016 1:05:10 GMT
Since so many of us seem to have similar stories I'm wondering if we had similar coping mechanisms. When you would text your DA and they didn't respond in a timely fashion would you start texting other people just so that when they responded you would get some odd relief? I didn't realize it at the time but I think when I would get a text I would get a tiny 'fix' if it was possible it was from him. Each time I checked I would be excited and then disappointed if it wasn't from him but the slight high seemed to make up for the disappointment and made the wait more bearable.
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Post by trixie5179 on Nov 21, 2016 1:12:56 GMT
I think the "text fix" you're referring to has to do with an anxious attachment, for sure. When I was with my avoidant ex, he was actually really good at responding to texts quickly/whenever he was able, so I wasn't really triggered by him that way......However, with pretty much everyone else in my life, I have noticed that I'm a very anxious texter! Once I finally receive a response, it is definitely like a 'relief.'
My ex avoidant triggered me the most when he would be physically distant... For example, we would be hanging out with a group of his friends, and instead of standing close (or close-ish) to me he would usually stay awkwardly far away in the group. This didn't happen all of the time, but when it did, it made me feel anxious and very self conscious. I was usually good at catching myself though. When I found myself getting anxious, I would try to recognize it and just wait it out.. Almost always, my anxiety would be relived by him reinforcing his feelings in another way, or just a later time.
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katy
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Post by katy on Nov 21, 2016 2:23:36 GMT
To me, the erratic text messages were one of the most upsetting, out of control parts of dealing with an avoidant. There were times when I sometimes didn't want to respond to a text message because I didn't want to put myself back in the position of having to be the one waiting. Especially after I got some perspective, I could see that the erratic text messages were a huge element of control and distancing.
I actually found the text message tone on my phone so triggering of bad memories that I bought an app with many new ringtones. Now, I have a very nice message tone for my friends and I have assigned him his own special not-so-great tone, so I'll never have to wonder, if I hear the nice tone, who it's from. I do not ever want to go back to that text message craziness.
I actually think that erratic text messages are probably one of the major factors in the variable reward system problems that were discussed in the article that I quoted a few days ago.
And, I just found out a few weeks ago that text messages are actually getting less reliable. A friend of mine who speaks English sent me a message and it arrived in Chinese! It turned out to be an AT&T / I-Phone problem. But, as I was researching the Chinese message, I found lots of examples of carriers losing and delaying text messages.
So, in my opinion, beware of text messages!
Katy
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Post by Gay anxious on Nov 21, 2016 2:40:50 GMT
To me, the erratic text messages were one of the most upsetting, out of control parts of dealing with an avoidant. There were times when I sometimes didn't want to respond to a text message because I didn't want to put myself back in the position of having to be the one waiting. Especially after I got some perspective, I could see that the erratic text messages were a huge element of control and distancing. I agree, it drove me crazy. I would text him when I knew he was awake and on Facebook and still not get responses for hours, and this was 9 years into the relationship, not during the dating phase. Our relationship started to fall apart because I was 'overwhelming' him by calling everyday. Granted, we had never been the communicate everyday when long distance types, I actually think I am only lightly to moderately anxious, but we had had an issue with dishonesty/borderline infidelity so I was prolly in need of reassurance as to what he was up to and if I could trust him. Before being truly long distance he went away for the summer (we were still in school) and 90-95% of my calls or texts were responded to 18-24 hours later and he actually tried to tell me I 'shouldn't be mad' like I wasn't entitled to my feelings. When we were in counseling he had laid down the law that he had to go out one weekend night every weekend without me so he could relax. I asked if he could commit to checking his phone once an hour to respond to any texts I sent. He said he couldn't, not wouldn't, he was literally incapable of keeping it in his mind to track time to check if I needed him once an hour. |
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katy
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Post by katy on Nov 21, 2016 3:00:15 GMT
Please believe that you're probably only moderately anxious. Reading what you just wrote, I would have also been driven totally insane. Could it be too simple to ask why he couldn't have a message tone so that he would know if you needed to communicate with him?
It sounds like he was constantly playing a distancing game. You had so many years of that anxiety, so I'm sure it affected you deeply. Just what you wrote here sounds as though he was always trying to keep from fully participating in the relationship.
It sounds as though you were dragged through 10 years of cognitive dissonance which you're hearing from other people here is extremely debilitating.
Have you ever looked at the Melanie Tonia Evans Web site? She's got lots of free material about recovering from narcissistic abuse. I found many of her materials very helpful in understanding what had happened to me.
Please take care.
Katy
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Post by Gay anxious on Nov 21, 2016 3:16:02 GMT
Thanks Katy,
I don't think he is a narcisist, I've looked into it a lot. The tone issue would not have helped, he would be at loud bars getting wasted with his friends so he wouldn't be able to hear it. I though about asking him to set an hourly alarm but even I think that sounds absurd. But is it absurd if nothing else will work?
I'd say it was not fully participating in the relationship except he did it with everyone. I read somewhere that avoidants are prone to 'going into a timeless place' when they work or play (this was directed to avoidant children) so I think I understand better why it was difficult for him and why my forcing him out of such a place was so frustrating for him but when your partner/practically fiancée is begging you to try because it makes them unhappy you'd think there would be some effort, not just resignation that it can't be done.
I'd say he is highly avoidant, to an extent that would probably be difficult even for a secure person to deal with.
Lately I have wondered if he agreed to get into the relationship to begin with because when we met I was a senior and he had another year of grad school left so maybe he felt the relationship would endin 8-9 months. His only ex he doesn't hate was never officially a relationship because he was a senior in college and the other guy was junior.
He claims the boyfriend before me but after that guy was a psycopath he caught doing porn behind his back. He found out because the guy left his email open. Now I am wondering if the guy was really a psycopath or if he intentionally left his email open and did the porn behind his back as protest behavior.
I could never understand how none of his previous boy friends didn't make the same complaints I did but now I am thinking they just dumped him or just didn't get invested due to his distancing. Also we lived together within 9 months so perhaps he simply never saw a guy often enough to trigger him before me. Who knows.
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katy
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Post by katy on Nov 21, 2016 3:57:30 GMT
One of the things that you're bringing up is a huge question that I haven't really answered in my own mind. I, still to this day, don't know exactly when enough was enough in the push / pull phase. It is extremely difficult, when you're in the middle of the situation, to be able to clearly see the continuity of the withdrawal and the damage that it is doing to you.
I think that everybody, even in good relationships, occasionally acts neglectful or distancing towards their partner. But, things are generally good, so the relationship is OK. With avoidants, they are nice, then they withdraw but they often have a fairly reasonable excuse, then they are nice, then they withdraw a little more but then they are back again being nice.
It's very crazy and there's often nothing really outrageous enough to say, this is over. It's just the constant back and forth where the avoidant seems like a normal person with fairly reasonable excuses and you feel more and more dragged into the vortex.
What's amazing about all of this also is that, for most of us, if we had understood the real mind-set of the avoidant at the beginning, we could have logically realized that most of the rejecting behavior was beyond the avoidant's control and we could have decided if we did or didn't want to interact with the avoidant. None of us probably would have become so emotionally bruised because we would have realized that having anything except the most minimal expectations of consistent connectivity with an avoidant who is intermittently distancing him or herself is a waste of time and emotion.
The good news is, once it happens once, it probably won't happen again. A few months ago I met a woman who appeared to be very kind and friendly. We had a lot in common and she was nice but immediately the "I'm really busy" started and I immediately realized whom I was dealing with. I'm friendly with her when she contacts me, but I'm not invested in being friends with her because I'm absolutely sure that she's the same type person - initially friendly but never wanting to be tied down to any interpersonal obligations.
Please take care,
Katy
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lily
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Post by lily on Nov 21, 2016 6:02:11 GMT
Ah yes, the texting distancing game. Before this relationship with him texting was just a convenient way for me to communicate with people. Often I didn't even notice that I had a text - it just wasn't something that was important to me. But - then the push/pull of texting with him. It was a nightmare. It got to the point where I had to simply turn my phone off, it was too distracting. Someone at work at some point turned their text chime to the one I used to have and - yes Katy - it was like a bad jolt every time that sucker went off! And boy do I understand what you're saying. There were times in the past couple of months I wouldn't read a text from him or I wouldn't answer the text because I just didn't want to enter into the game again - where I was the one waiting...
Gay anxious - the email porn story sounds familiar to me. My DA early on told me that he had issues with trust that arose from two girlfriends he had in college - both of whom ended up cheating on him. He told me one called him and told him she might be about to cheat! At the time I couldn't believe it - I mean - if you were going to cheat wouldn't you NOT want your significant other to know? Now I see it in the same way you see that email - likely a last ditch effort to get any type of reaction out of the withdrawing DA.
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Post by Gay anxious on Nov 21, 2016 6:18:47 GMT
I have read about DA's finding fault with the partners and needing a sense of psychological superiority, part of why they are attracted to an anxious to begin with. In the first 9 years of our relationship I would yell at him and blow up at him when I felt I wasn't being heard or wasn't getting my needs met or he really annoyed me. And he would be calm cool and collected and always have some really unusual explanation of his point of view. And part of me while knowing his reasoning made no sense to a normal person, while another part was like well he has a reason and he is so sure it's not what I think it is, maybe it's his aspbergers, maybe I am flying off the handle.
We would make up and all went back to normal. Then he got in much much better shape, made friends for the first time, and started to get lots of attention from other guys. Suddenly the outbursts were no longer going to be tolerated. I resisted and became sullen, explaining that the yelling and the outbursts felt like my only means of catharsis for how he treated me and that I knew he wouldn't stop. But I knew my behavior was unhealthy so I tried. And I really tried. And I got better,even he admitted it but I couldn't get it completely under wraps. Suddenly he would get more angry with me for longer periods so I really started to try to explain myself calmly and logically. Often I would bring up how something he said earlier contradicted what he was saying now. And suddenly he started calling me a narcisist, saying I had no empathy for anyone else's view point.
I have been wandering for some time now if you are able to out argue a DA or start to make them realize their own problems or demonstrate your own psychological health, do they feel the need to up their fault finding, a need to find some new accusation to convince themselves of their own superior self image, to see you as beneath them?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2016 18:17:17 GMT
"I have been wandering for some time now if you are able to out argue a DA or start to make them realize their own problems or demonstrate your own psychological health, do they feel the need to up their fault finding, a need to find some new accusation to convince themselves of their own superior self image, to see you as beneath them?"
I don't think so. I never saw my partners as beneath me or I wouldn't have chosen to be with them. I think you have to be careful. There is a lot of fault finding on both sides. It's evidenced in this very thread. The DA doesn't text enough or fast enough, doesn't give enough attention, isn't available enough etc. a big issue I had with anxious partners is that they always thought they were "right" with their demands, because they thought it reinforced the relationship. They never saw that sometimes a person needs their own time and space and that time away can also reinforce a relationship. My current partner is secure and he said he dated an anxious before and even he couldn't keep up with the demands. He didn't withdraw as a DA would,but he would want to go out with friends alone or have time to himself and it was always an argument/drama.
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lily
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Post by lily on Nov 21, 2016 18:54:12 GMT
Mary - I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of some of this. I am not particularly anxious and made no demands of the DA in my life. He'd come back from an absence and be all apologies and I'd tell him he should never feel the need to apologize for who he is. My default was to actually disengage from him because his inconsistent behavior was too distracting - so I'd turn off my phone for the day. What Katy and I are talking about is the push/pull - the inconsistency of behavior and how it affected us. There is no blame. It is what it is. But it is very beneficial to be able to discuss what happens when you are confronted with behavior that doesn't add up. Coming on strong in one instance then distancing in the next. You really feel off balance and i don't think anyone can possibly understand the emotional toll it takes unless you've been through it. Because from the outside it seems somewhat benign.
Much of our discussion comes down to a yearning to understand the answer to a question Katy asked earlier in this thread: when is enough enough? When should we have disengaged for our own sanity. This is our self care and our self protection.
Nothing ever changed between me and my DA except him. My behavior was consistent always. I never mentioned his distancing behavior (because I thought it would go away if he eventually trusted me tbh) and I always let him be who he needed to be. He was the one who deepened the relationship - every time. Then he flipped and was gone. There's nothin I could have done. All I can do now is figure out why I felt so off balance, heal and protect myself from it in the future. These discussions are an exploration of what we went through, not recriminations.
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Post by Gay anxious on Nov 21, 2016 18:54:21 GMT
Hi Mary,
The psychological superiority thing is merely something I have read, I doubt all DA's look to have this with their partners.
You're right there are extremes. And as an anxious I admit I went to far at times. Once when I knew my boyfriend was home I called nonstop for 15 minutes. When he finally answered he asked 'can I not go to the bathroom?' To which I replied 'yes and since I know you are wearing pants when you go to the bathroom your phone should still be in your pocket'. I realize that is ridiculous but at the time it seemed normal to me. My real thinking was well I know he is home so I'm going to call until he either hears his phone, stops ignoring me, or becomes available. It never occurred to me that the phone going off for 15 minutes would be distracting or that seeing I had called 19 times would be overwhelming cause in my mind if he isn't picking up hen he must be otherwise engaged and not bothered by the calls.
I don't think my DA responded so infrequently to maintain control, but distance maybe. It was definetely excessive but if it bothered me so much I probably should have ended the relationship once I had expressed how much it bothered me and he refused to do anythjng to change. It just seemed small to end the relationship over but there were times it sent me over the edge and no amount of will power or distraction could consol me. Dating a DA has taught me that it doesn't matter how much you love someone or how small a problem seems, if the relationship makes you unhinged or a person you don't want to be it needs to be ended.
I think when an anxious and avoidant date they need to through out the ideas of 'normal' and 'should' and focus on what they need and can provide. Unfortunately I think this will usually result in seeing needs and abilities to respect those needs are irreconcilable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2016 19:18:59 GMT
Mary - I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment of some of this. I am not particularly anxious and made no demands of the DA in my life. He'd come back from an absence and be all apologies and I'd tell him he should never feel the need to apologize for who he is. My default was to actually disengage from him because his inconsistent behavior was too distracting - so I'd turn off my phone for the day. What Katy and I are talking about is the push/pull - the inconsistency of behavior and how it affected us. There is no blame. It is what it is. But it is very beneficial to be able to discuss what happens when you are confronted with behavior that doesn't add up. Coming on strong in one instance then distancing in the next. You really feel off balance and i don't think anyone can possibly understand the emotional toll it takes unless you've been through it. Because from the outside it seems somewhat benign. Much of our discussion comes down to a yearning to understand the answer to a question Katy asked earlier in this thread: when is enough enough? When should we have disengaged for our own sanity. This is our self care and our self protection. Nothing ever changed between me and my DA except him. My behavior was consistent always. I never mentioned his distancing behavior (because I thought it would go away if he eventually trusted me tbh) and I always let him be who he needed to be. He was the one who deepened the relationship - every time. Then he flipped and was gone. There's nothin I could have done. All I can do now is figure out why I felt so off balance, heal and protect myself from it in the future. These discussions are an exploration of what we went through, not recriminations. We are talking apples and oranges. I am talking about the anxious avoidant trap, where there is fault finding on both sides. Maybe you were the perfect one in your relationship. I have no idea. My experience with my secure partner is that we discuss the issue, so there is no "hidden" push/pull. It's there, but out in the open. It changed the dynamic for me of the old trap I found myself in. He says the discussion helps him greatly to understand and there is no emotional toll on him. However, I understand everyone's relationship/emotional make up is different. What's fine for one is not fine for another. I also understand the need for people to come here and vent and find support. I'm not trying to derail that. I have a different perspective from the other side and maybe it can help someone understand the other perspective. |
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