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Post by cspragu on Aug 15, 2018 23:03:17 GMT
No flack here, either. It happens. I've done it, and seen it all the way through (with different people).
But do continue taking care of yourself. Stay honest with yourself about where things are at throughout this process. Consider re-reading your first post. Her behavior is well within her normal pattern. She ran into you, got anxious, felt you were withdrawn, and pursued a reconnection in response. She didn't seek you out after engaging in self-work.
I think your gut will know if she's still acting out her cycles or if there's any real change. There's going to be tells in how she's talking about it and in her follow up.
I knew my last FA ex wasn't ready yet when he did a big pull a few months ago during quasi-dating (I rated him about a 75% ready at the time), but I wanted it to work. I thought he could keep doing his work to get to 100% while we were reconciling, and that when he committed to asking me to get back together it meant he was done at least with running at the first sign of discomfort. Didn't work out that way at all, because 75% ready wasn't enough. I'd never been in that situation before, though, so I did the best I could with what I knew... now I know more.
What I've learned from letting a few insecurely attached guys I care about cycle back is they really have to come to you, totally unbidden. Not because they saw you and are reacting to it, not because you've sought them out and think it's worth another chance. If they're courageous enough to come back to you, it demonstrates they've started the work that can make this longer-term successful (check out ocarina 's recent update).
I hope you keep feeling better and watching out for yourself.
There’s no change. She still doesn’t seem to understand that she needs to do any work regarding her relationship patterns. She doesn’t understand the need for open communication in a relationship. Nor does she see an issue with trying to keep everyone at arms length. Maybe other people here don’t see an issue with those things either. But I don’t see a point in engaging in a serious relationship if you aren’t willing to work at it and compromise on anything. She’s always been the “I want it when I want it and I don’t when I don’t” type of person. There isn’t much give and take. Which is all well and good unless you find yourself in a spot where you need your partners support. Then, like Jeb said, you’re really still alone from an attachment perspective. She did tell me that she fell into a people pleasing pattern where she was asking me to stay over every night because she knew I wanted to. I told her that I’m aware of her need for space at times and that she just needs to communicate that to me. She didn’t understand why I wouldn’t just know. In other words...I need to choose not to spend too much time with her so she doesn’t need to ask. It’s an alien way of thinking for me. How about we just be honest with each regarding how we’re feeling? She said several that she doesn’t know what she wants after we hooked up last night. She was emotional and very affectionate the entire time but I think she’s still coming down from deactivating. It’s only been two weeks since the breakup. I don’t know what’s going to happen and I’m trying not to worry about it. I’ll let her come to me and hope we can communicate more about how we affect each other and how to move forward. But ultimately that’s up to her and how receptive she is. In other words....how much does this mean to you, because we both have work to do. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2018 23:31:46 GMT
cspragu , i'm curious- why do you say that maybe other people here don't understand the need for open communication, or see a problem with keeping people at arms length? is that because there are avoidants on this site? it's an interesting comment coming from you, after everyone here that engaged with you acknowledged her inappropriate behavior. just curious what you're getting at there. if i am not mistaken, people here thought her behavior and treatment of you was pretty poor and in need of change in order for her to be an adequate partner.
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Post by cspragu on Aug 15, 2018 23:53:45 GMT
cspragu , i'm curious- why do you say that maybe other people here don't understand the need for open communication, or see a problem with keeping people at arms length? is that because there are avoidants on this site? it's an interesting comment coming from you, after everyone here that engaged with you acknowledged her inappropriate behavior. just curious what you're getting at there. if i am not mistaken, people here thought her behavior and treatment of you was pretty poor and in need of change in order for her to be an adequate partner. Yes. Most of the posts in this thread have been incredibly supportive and are greatly appreciated. However, there was one I read yesterday that led me to immediately sign off in lieu of firing back an angry response. It insinuated that I “preach” about open communication and “drag” my partners to couples therapy and that I would drive a secure partner nuts. An interesting assumption being that I’m a 33 year old guy who’s never presented as AP until I got into this cycle with my current FA. It royally pissed me off because, if anything, I’m less assertive than I feel like I should be at times regarding my needs. Whether intentional or not, I’ve read some posts and gotten the impression that what little I feel like I’m asking for is selfish and borderline pathological. So....that remark was simply a nod to the fact that there are clearly folks on this board who seem to think I’m either asking too much or out of line for expecting anything at all from her. And I’m obviously not an expert. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 0:01:26 GMT
oh, i'm surprised at you not just addressing that poster:
i mean, everyone is specifically addressing you. it can go both ways.
but, thanks for the clarity. it seemed passive aggressive and as an avoidant myself i was hoping it wasn't a jab at me, just checking. i mean, we don't need to engage and i wouldn't continue with any hostility, so it's good to be clear:
My posts certainly haven't been intended as hostile and i've made sure to check with your comfort level.
anyway, i wish you the best !
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Post by cspragu on Aug 16, 2018 0:18:27 GMT
I wouldn’t intentionally “jab” at anyone unless they were rude to me. I certainly wouldn’t insult someone over their attachment style. As far as that particular poster is concerned, I see no need to address it. It made me angry at the time but It’s a comment made by someone on an Internet forum who doesn’t really know me. I can’t take it personally. They’ve posted since and I found those to be comforting and helpful. It’s water under the bridge.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 0:23:04 GMT
right on  |
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Post by alexandra on Aug 16, 2018 0:54:22 GMT
But I don’t see a point in engaging in a serious relationship if you aren’t willing to work at it and compromise on anything.
Good, sounds like you're prioritizing yourself here and not just her.
While I agree with your statement there (since I feel the same way) and think it makes for a healthy relationship, what I had to realize was my definition of work and compromise was not always the same as all of my ex partners'. My ex FA thought he was working at it and was visibly hurt the two times in the last two years that I got frustrated and cried out that I just wanted him to try. When you're coming from such different perspectives on what the problem is, though, working at it can take on different meanings. I eventually sincerely apologized to him for saying that he wasn't trying.
I'm sure she thinks she is willing and working on it, and that she wants a serious relationship in theory, and that's why she's trying to engage. But to her (and this is conjecture, I have no idea), working on it might mean sitting alone with her feelings of discomfort and taking an extra breath in them before shutting down on you. And for her, that's probably really difficult, hard work, and actually a step of progress.
When you're coming at it from a place that you can see the core problem (in this case, insecure attachments on both sides), then you understand the type of work this actually takes... and it seems like the partner isn't there with you. And they're not, not because they're not putting in work or compromise, but because they don't fundamentally see the big picture yet. Continuing with my conjecture example, her taking that breath is work, but it's still at too superficial a level. She thinks she has to learn how to sit with the fear, but what she actually has to do is figure out where it came from, face it, heal. But either she hasn't had that epiphany or she's not ready to face that and do that. But if she doesn't consciously understand those things, then she thinks she's working at it and compromising, and you can't speed that process up for her.
Does that make sense? Where the incompatibility comes in here is timing. This could take her years, if ever, to figure out. You're already there and ready to try to take bigger, deeper steps for significant change. You're both working but at different speeds and with different effectiveness. It doesn't make your desires incorrect. You're not asking too much, in most situations, but she isn't caught up to where you are yet so can't meet you there at this time.
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Post by cspragu on Aug 16, 2018 1:14:33 GMT
That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for that. I do think she feels like shes trying and I do think she leans into her discomfort sometimes to make me happy. I do the same for her. But you're right....she doesn't see the big picture. And that's the challenge for me.
Its probably a foolish thought anyway. We aren't together and I dont know when we will really talk again. Obviously there are feelings there. But the balls in her court.
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Post by alexandra on Aug 16, 2018 1:56:12 GMT
It's not a foolish thought, it's a normal one.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 2:47:44 GMT
when an anxious person is activated , and their nervous system is in an unregulated state, their impulse is to move toward their attachment object.
The exact opposite happens in avoidance. dismissive and fearful avoidance have significant differences but is she experiences deactivation, her nervous system is over-regulated, and her impulse will be to detach. it's not a choice really, she may be able to quash it sometimes but deactivation is autopilot go-away.
I know exactly what it feels like. It is as impossible to overcome as your panicked state is, when it's happening.
there is no way to really grasp it unless you've experienced it, just as i cannot imagine the anxiety and rumination that AP experience. But both sides are very deeply ingrained. and very opposite in terms of what brings relief.
Deactivation and separation from the person one is involved with brings relief , and a sense of well-being, at least temporarily. Just like reunion and contact brings relief to anxious activation.
One appears warm- contact. One appears cold- no contact.
but both remedies are concerned mainly with relief, of one's own discomfort. In the urgency, for both sides, it's survival and coping. it isn't about love at that point as much as it is about self preservation.
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Post by alexandra on Aug 16, 2018 2:59:28 GMT
That's true. juniper , do you think it may be more fair to say then that one insecure person's version of the work (assuming that person isn't at a point of, or maybe at a desire to, understand attachment theory and the underlying issues) may be to "survive", while the other insecure partner (who is more aware of the dynamics)'s version of the work may be to "heal"? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 3:12:55 GMT
That's true. juniper, do you think it may be more fair to say then that one insecure person's work (assuming that person isn't at a point of, or maybe at a desire to, understand attachment theory and the underlying issues) may be to "survive", while the other insecure partner (who is more aware of the dynamics)'s work may be to "heal"? yes. surviving is different from healing in that way. in my experience, surviving also continued for a good amount of time into the awareness process. I was unable to stop deactivating for a long time despite concerted effort to understand and prevent it. it is an automatic response to stimuli. attempts to coerce a different response from me would definitely increase deactivation. emotional and even thought processes are greatly impacted by deactivation in an avoidant, just as they are in an anxious preoccupied person. it's not a choice to stop deactivating, its not a choice to stop anxiety. it's a long process of working with the nervous system, emotions, thoughts, behaviors. it's a long process to heal and move beyond survival. i am very healthy emotionally, psychologically- i have worked hard daily with my process to work past avoidant attachment. i still become triggered to deactivation by things i discussed in the DA deactivation thread. if i had an anxious partner i would not be able to heal i would be surviving. just like if an anxious partner has an avoidant partner triggering them all the time by their opposite nervous system response, they will be suffering through survival instead of healing. the dynamic is not conducive to healing when the parties are both triggered a lot. again, why it is recommended to grow with a secure partner for a more stable intimate environ. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 3:14:28 GMT
it isn't all about awareness and knowledge, that's a piece of the puzzle but not nearly all of it.
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Post by alexandra on Aug 16, 2018 3:20:56 GMT
No, of course... it took me another 5 years after becoming aware to figure out what to do with the knowledge.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 3:27:42 GMT
No, of course... it took me another 5 years after becoming aware to figure out what to do with the knowledge. absolutely. it's hard to imagine two people entangled in an Ap/avoidant trap, new to attachment awareness, being able to survive each other long enough to make real progress individually or as a couple. it's too complex and it happens in real time daily, the dynamic pings nervous systems continuously. I see counseling pages on the Net encouraging couples with tips on how to improve their ap/avoidant relationship but i just see a business owner marketing to their clients. i don't think it's realistic but that's just my opinion. and as i mentioned earlier, most authors actually encourage insecures to improve their security enough to find a secure mate. ultimately, i see little to suggest the outcome between anxious and avoidant can be a peaceful, mutually satisfying intimate relationship. if that is a real potential i just have not seen it play out either in real life OR on the internet. maybe a movie... |
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