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Post by goldilocks on Aug 16, 2018 5:37:50 GMT
That's true. juniper , do you think it may be more fair to say then that one insecure person's work (assuming that person isn't at a point of, or maybe at a desire to, understand attachment theory and the underlying issues) may be to "survive", while the other insecure partner (who is more aware of the dynamics)'s work may be to "heal"? yes. surviving is different from healing in that way. in my experience, surviving also continued for a good amount of time into the awareness process. I was unable to stop deactivating for a long time despite concerted effort to understand and prevent it. it is an automatic response to stimuli. attempts to coerce a different response from me would definitely increase deactivation. emotional and even thought processes are greatly impacted by deactivation in an avoidant, just as they are in an anxious preoccupied person. it's not a choice to stop deactivating, its not a choice to stop anxiety. it's a long process of working with the nervous system, emotions, thoughts, behaviors. it's a long process to heal and move beyond survival. i am very healthy emotionally, psychologically- i have worked hard daily with my process to work past avoidant attachment. i still become triggered to deactivation by things i discussed in the DA deactivation thread. if i had an anxious partner i would not be able to heal i would be surviving. just like if an anxious partner has an avoidant partner triggering them all the time by their opposite nervous system response, they will be suffering through survival instead of healing. the dynamic is not conducive to healing when the parties are both triggered a lot. again, why it is recommended to grow with a secure partner for a more stable intimate environ. For me, meditation has helped a lot. But years and years of experimenting with different kinds of meditation and applying what works. Looking within and being mindful has helped me become aware of my deactivation process: There is a perception, then a sensation in the body. Often this is a sensation of tension and stress and some part in the body stiffens/freezes. Then come the feelings, for example: Maybe a man I am dating makes a comment that works as a trigger. Say he mentions being very jealous as a joke. I might sense tension around the chest and stress in the body. Then a feeling of being suffocated bubbling up, then an emotion on the fear spectrum, which in turn opens the door to a multitude of thoughts of what scary things this person might do out of jealousy. Then starts a vicious circle or the thought increasing the tension in the body, the sensations in the body increasing the emotion, and this in turn opening the door to more and scarier scenarios. The escalation of thoughts and feelings can then lead to a distancing behaviour. What helps with the sensation of tension is to notice it and take several deep breaths. This is quite feasible with a secure or DA man who will not be making additional triggering happen. When facing an AP, there will be constant calls for attention. Even dropping eye contant for a few minutes to feel the tension in my chest might me taken as threathening, as the connection is disturbed. The AP might then respons with a protest behaviour. What helps with the thoughts is generosity of spirit. This is most effective when knowing the man's character and responding to each generated scenario with "Highly unlikely, he has never shown such behaviour and is a kind person with plenty of self control." Again, with an AP partner who has engages in serveral shenanigans, the scenarios may actually be realistic. What helps with the feelings is sitting with them and asking myself what in my past has made this feeling to easy to appear for me. This is easiest to do when alone or with a partner who will hold space for me to go inward. Not exactly the description of a triggered AP. Doing this often has partly dissolved the automatic connections between the perception, the sensation, the feelings and the thoughts. Nowadays I can point out many moments where I notice the comment could trigger me, and just take a deep breath, smile and keep in mind that this is just an isolated comment. If I am at a social event, I set it aside for digestion and analysis and further process it when alone. The best thing a partner could do is to hold space for me to intervene in the process. I would say, "Hey, that jealousy comment is bringing up a lot of thoughts and feelings that need to be digested. Would you sit quietly with me as I take a few deep breaths or let me take a walk to be alone for a few minutes?" and he would not feel threathened or demand further attention. Then we could connect. |
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Post by cspragu on Aug 16, 2018 10:25:38 GMT
yes. surviving is different from healing in that way. in my experience, surviving also continued for a good amount of time into the awareness process. I was unable to stop deactivating for a long time despite concerted effort to understand and prevent it. it is an automatic response to stimuli. attempts to coerce a different response from me would definitely increase deactivation. emotional and even thought processes are greatly impacted by deactivation in an avoidant, just as they are in an anxious preoccupied person. it's not a choice to stop deactivating, its not a choice to stop anxiety. it's a long process of working with the nervous system, emotions, thoughts, behaviors. it's a long process to heal and move beyond survival. i am very healthy emotionally, psychologically- i have worked hard daily with my process to work past avoidant attachment. i still become triggered to deactivation by things i discussed in the DA deactivation thread. if i had an anxious partner i would not be able to heal i would be surviving. just like if an anxious partner has an avoidant partner triggering them all the time by their opposite nervous system response, they will be suffering through survival instead of healing. the dynamic is not conducive to healing when the parties are both triggered a lot. again, why it is recommended to grow with a secure partner for a more stable intimate environ. For me, meditation has helped a lot. But years and years of experimenting with different kinds of meditation and applying what works. Looking within and being mindful has helped me become aware of my deactivation process: There is a perception, then a sensation in the body. Often this is a sensation of tension and stress and some part in the body stiffens/freezes. Then come the feelings, for example: Maybe a man I am dating makes a comment that works as a trigger. Say he mentions being very jealous as a joke. I might sense tension around the chest and stress in the body. Then a feeling of being suffocated bubbling up, then an emotion on the fear spectrum, which in turn opens the door to a multitude of thoughts of what scary things this person might do out of jealousy. Then starts a vicious circle or the thought increasing the tension in the body, the sensations in the body increasing the emotion, and this in turn opening the door to more and scarier scenarios. The escalation of thoughts and feelings can then lead to a distancing behaviour. What helps with the sensation of tension is to notice it and take several deep breaths. This is quite feasible with a secure or DA man who will not be making additional triggering happen. When facing an AP, there will be constant calls for attention. Even dropping eye contant for a few minutes to feel the tension in my chest might me taken as threathening, as the connection is disturbed. The AP might then respons with a protest behaviour. What helps with the thoughts is generosity of spirit. This is most effective when knowing the man's character and responding to each generated scenario with "Highly unlikely, he has never shown such behaviour and is a kind person with plenty of self control." Again, with an AP partner who has engages in serveral shenanigans, the scenarios may actually be realistic. What helps with the feelings is sitting with them and asking myself what in my past has made this feeling to easy to appear for me. This is easiest to do when alone or with a partner who will hold space for me to go inward. Not exactly the description of a triggered AP. Doing this often has partly dissolved the automatic connections between the perception, the sensation, the feelings and the thoughts. Nowadays I can point out many moments where I notice the comment could trigger me, and just take a deep breath, smile and keep in mind that this is just an isolated comment. If I am at a social event, I set it aside for digestion and analysis and further process it when alone. The best thing a partner could do is to hold space for me to intervene in the process. I would say, "Hey, that jealousy comment is bringing up a lot of thoughts and feelings that need to be digested. Would you sit quietly with me as I take a few deep breaths or let me take a walk to be alone for a few minutes?" and he would not feel threathened or demand further attention. Then we could connect. I’m not the type to place constant bids for attention when I know she’s deactivating or needs space. I understand how detrimental that is and I can wait that out. I have....many times. I just wonder if she can gain that type of awareness and, if so, ever be capable or mindful enough to handle it this way. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 10:47:15 GMT
For me, meditation has helped a lot. But years and years of experimenting with different kinds of meditation and applying what works. Looking within and being mindful has helped me become aware of my deactivation process: There is a perception, then a sensation in the body. Often this is a sensation of tension and stress and some part in the body stiffens/freezes. Then come the feelings, for example: Maybe a man I am dating makes a comment that works as a trigger. Say he mentions being very jealous as a joke. I might sense tension around the chest and stress in the body. Then a feeling of being suffocated bubbling up, then an emotion on the fear spectrum, which in turn opens the door to a multitude of thoughts of what scary things this person might do out of jealousy. Then starts a vicious circle or the thought increasing the tension in the body, the sensations in the body increasing the emotion, and this in turn opening the door to more and scarier scenarios. The escalation of thoughts and feelings can then lead to a distancing behaviour. What helps with the sensation of tension is to notice it and take several deep breaths. This is quite feasible with a secure or DA man who will not be making additional triggering happen. When facing an AP, there will be constant calls for attention. Even dropping eye contant for a few minutes to feel the tension in my chest might me taken as threathening, as the connection is disturbed. The AP might then respons with a protest behaviour. What helps with the thoughts is generosity of spirit. This is most effective when knowing the man's character and responding to each generated scenario with "Highly unlikely, he has never shown such behaviour and is a kind person with plenty of self control." Again, with an AP partner who has engages in serveral shenanigans, the scenarios may actually be realistic. What helps with the feelings is sitting with them and asking myself what in my past has made this feeling to easy to appear for me. This is easiest to do when alone or with a partner who will hold space for me to go inward. Not exactly the description of a triggered AP. Doing this often has partly dissolved the automatic connections between the perception, the sensation, the feelings and the thoughts. Nowadays I can point out many moments where I notice the comment could trigger me, and just take a deep breath, smile and keep in mind that this is just an isolated comment. If I am at a social event, I set it aside for digestion and analysis and further process it when alone. The best thing a partner could do is to hold space for me to intervene in the process. I would say, "Hey, that jealousy comment is bringing up a lot of thoughts and feelings that need to be digested. Would you sit quietly with me as I take a few deep breaths or let me take a walk to be alone for a few minutes?" and he would not feel threathened or demand further attention. Then we could connect. I’m not the type to place constant bids for attention when I know she’s deactivating or needs space. I understand how detrimental that is and I can wait that out. I have....many times. I just wonder if she can gain that type of awareness and, if so, ever be capable or mindful enough to handle it this way. why would she? i mean, it takes months and years to make real progress with this stuff. you take her back like you did after two weeks. surely you didn't think she made some big leap? you're open and available while she is deeply entrenched in coming and going. why should she change? because you want her so much even tough she is very unstable relationally, essentially she drives this train and you're just a passenger, from my perspective. you seem like you would take her back endlessly, if she shows interest in you. i could be wrong i am just looking at your anxious pattern through your original post to this one. You do seem caught in a bit of a desperate trap with this woman. and, until she herself is ready to progress through to healing for herself, losing relationships isn't going to prompt her to. it's a very personal, individual matter, and there's no way of telling if or when she gets there. |
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Post by cspragu on Aug 16, 2018 11:40:50 GMT
You're right, I'm stuck in a cycle with her that I'm not consistently motivated to get out of. And maybe she knows I'm there so she isnt motivated to make any changes. I said in my post last night that I know nothing has changed.
We are not back together. We met, talked, cried, hooked up, cuddled, cried some more (mostly her) and then parted ways with a question mark hanging in the air. She "doesnt know what she wants", and I'm not trying to convince her. I'm not in the business of convincing anyone to be with me. And it's always been her who initiates contact to reapproach. I know there are a ton of other people out there for me. I'm just particularly fond of this one when shes open and interested in a relationship.
That being said, I'll grieve and then move on to other people just like last time. I'm not going to wait around forever. I do hold out hope that something will click and she will make getting treatment and working on herself a priority. We have chemistry that I've never experienced before and I can't ignore it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 11:53:25 GMT
You're right, I'm stuck in a cycle with her that I'm not consistently motivated to get out of. And maybe she knows I'm there so she isnt motivated to make any changes. I said in my post last night that I know nothing has changed. We are not back together. We met, talked, cried, hooked up, cuddled, cried some more (mostly her) and then parted ways with a question mark hanging in the air. She "doesnt know what she wants", and I'm not trying to convince her. I'm not in the business of convincing anyone to be with me. And it's always been her who initiates contact to reapproach. I know there are a ton of other people out there for me. I'm just particularly fond of this one when shes open and interested in a relationship. That being said, I'll grieve and then move on to other people just like last time. I'm not going to wait around forever. I do hold out hope that something will click and she will make getting treatment and working on herself a priority. We have chemistry that I've never experienced before and I can't ignore it. i totally get it. it's true you aren't back together, but without a commitment to change and consistency, it sounds like you never really were, you were just both in pattern. i get the chemistry part- it can really create and addiction. it's definitely like a drug. in many ways. in fact, withdrawing from it is like a drug- if i understand correctly the anxious preoccupation piece is also tied to dopamine withdrawal. we get dopamine from a partner when we connect. going no contact cuts all the addiction reinforcement. but there is the withdrawal with AP activation to boot , that people here on the board struggle through but many ultimately are able to detach i think. it's a lot of work just to change our own patterns. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 11:59:16 GMT
so anyway that's what i mean-
about partners like this pinging each other and never really growing together.
you'd think it's about you as AP just managing AP when you're together but it's not.
with the push pull back and forth, ultimately; it's just a cycle of rewarding addictions.
you may be able to manage your AP triggers if she is responsive or physically present, but when she leaves you're triggered as heck and need the renewed contact to calm you down- and her pattern is enabled. it looks like it's been that way the entire time and is a well established cycle of drama that keeps you both truly stuck in your own individual dysfunction. until someone grows enough to change the pattern decisively that will continue.
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Post by mrob on Aug 16, 2018 12:07:11 GMT
I was asked many times by B, “I’m not being unreasonable, am I?”, and she wasn’t, at all. But I was in a case of constant trigger, if you like, and just felt manipulated. Gee, when I could see I wasn’t being reasonable, I so tried to rationalise it, but it was to no avail.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 12:15:30 GMT
I was asked many times by B, “I’m not being unreasonable, am I?”, and she wasn’t, at all. But I was in a case of constant trigger, if you like, and just felt manipulated. Gee, when I could see I wasn’t being reasonable, I so tried to rationalise it, but it was to no avail. avoidant triggers are very difficult to manage, they just look different. at the root of them is deep trauma and unbearable pain, even if it doesn't show in displays of emotion or neediness. it is the flight response being triggered. Flight. it's not about reason, at this point. the nervous system hijacks all that and it takes really deep and sustained work to gain control of it. in these relationships, there isn't a bad guy only two people triggered to survival over and over again. by old unfinished business. it takes a lot for a person to face what happened to them wayyyy before YOU (partner in the dance) entered the picture. it's a bunch of hurt that is deep and real and profound and has nothing to do with you- you're the trigger. it isn't personal. it's internal wounding. we all have it, and we all have to go inside to address and heal it before we can show up for others in a safe and stable, secure way. |
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 16, 2018 12:19:28 GMT
Yes..it is an automatic response...the craving for closeness in the distance. I think the distance itself is not the issue for APs...I think it is not knowing for how long that distance will take place. If the partner says...I need some space but will call you on Tuesday.....then the nervous system calms. Wedon'tnecessarily need to have our partner present, but we need to know that our partner will return. Oftentimes...at least what I have found..is that the deactivation comes with silence....and that is the trigger for me. More so the silence then the actual leaving...because the trigger is..did I do something wrong? Will that person come back? That is where my nervous system gets hijacked.
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Post by mrob on Aug 16, 2018 12:21:48 GMT
That’s right. Survival. I liken it to being controlled like a marionette. Visceral. I tried everything I knew to get around it, but more often than not looked like a kangaroo in the headlights. The inside dialogue was something like “Run, stay, run, stay, oook normal, listen, be reasonable. What’s reasonable for me? Run,” rinse and repeat. Not much room for anything functional to get in there.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 12:37:28 GMT
That’s right. Survival. I liken it to being controlled like a marionette. Visceral. I tried everything I knew to get around it, but more often than not looked like a kangaroo in the headlights. The inside dialogue was something like “Run, stay, run, stay, oook normal, listen, be reasonable. What’s reasonable for me? Run,” rinse and repeat. Not much room for anything functional to get in there. i totally empathize with this. it's very painful to experience. and, all the insecure styles are not just triggered by their partners- it can be life events, or even also just our own internal dialogue and narrative. it's very challenging to gain security - like the blind leading the blind, when with an insecure partner. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2018 12:41:11 GMT
even as earned secure i am most peaceful with less contact than an anxious person could be comfortable with.
think about it- i didn't get much interaction as a kid and it was almost all negative.
my nervous system loves solitude in a lot of ways, and even with my partner; we felt deeply connected in spite of silence together or silence without reassurance.
it's two different natural habitats where anxious and avoidant thrive.
very different conditions make us each happy and content.
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Post by cspragu on Aug 16, 2018 13:00:45 GMT
Yes..it is an automatic response...the craving for closeness in the distance. I think the distance itself is not the issue for APs...I think it is not knowing for how long that distance will take place. If the partner says...I need some space but will call you on Tuesday.....then the nervous system calms. Wedon'tnecessarily need to have our partner present, but we need to know that our partner will return. Oftentimes...at least what I have found..is that the deactivation comes with silence....and that is the trigger for me. More so the silence then the actual leaving...because the trigger is..did I do something wrong? Will that person come back? That is where my nervous system gets hijacked. YES. This is how I am. I can handle space and being apart. Ive even accepted that it's probably good for me. I just need to know that you love me and you'll be back and, if possible, some idea when. But she keeps running. I had that conversation with her the other night. It's hard for me to feel secure in a relationship knowing that she could get triggered and run away with no warning. It perpetuates and exacerbates a fear that I'm trying to work through. |
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Post by mrob on Aug 16, 2018 13:11:54 GMT
...and that’s why my last relationship will never be rekindled. Not because she doesn’t love me, but she can’t handle that uncertainty. I’ll tell you, when I heard that, I knew I was a total failure and had to look at what on Earth is wrong with me.
I deactivated a fortnight ago in a friendship. A mate pushed and pushed me, started off reasonable but I couldn’t do it. I felt myself slip away, to the point where I got a really abusive message yesterday that, to me, was totally over the top. I just don’t need constant messaging or contact. Let me do things in my own time. So, no, it isn’t only in intimate relationships.
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Post by tnr9 on Aug 16, 2018 13:48:00 GMT
Thank you juniper and mrob....I really had not understood the other side of the equation. Deactivation and more so, silence feels so personal...but I can see that it just is not. You are taking care of you in the best way you can...it falls to me to work with the anxiety that results from my nervous system going crazy and the thoughts and feelings that result. Definately good stuff to ponder. |
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