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Post by epicgum on Sept 12, 2018 0:40:40 GMT
For me the process of breaking up makes the ex less attractive to me. I may even be repulsed. If nothing bad happened we can be friends, but I could never be lovers again. Are you DA or FA? Apologies, I can't remember. I would have agreed with you except for this current ex. I guess time will tell. |
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Post by leavethelighton on Sept 12, 2018 1:01:17 GMT
. . . leavethelighton , I relate so hard to all of this. Wow. I am also unsure whether my super stable relationship (where I'm the one keeping my distance) is fundamentally flawed because it lacks sparkle, or whether sparkle is an unhealthy goal for me and I'm better off without it. Sparkle for me has tended to to go along with high anxiety, and I'm inexperienced enough in relationships (or at an early enough stage of my AP recovery) not to know whether a gentle, not-maddening, sustainable sparkle is a thing I can experience and should aspire to. Because I'm non-monogamous, I keep hoping the sparkle will come along in a form that won't force me to give up my deep, loving, and sparkle-less relationship of five years. But I worry about the toll it takes on my relationship that I'm so focused on tracking down sparkle. It's a kind of phantom, but is it a phantom in the deactivation/avoidant sense, or is it a legit desire not stemming from a fear of closeness with my current (wonderful) partner? I'm confused about it. Edited to add: But then I've stayed in my five-year relationship all this time, and I guess that's my wisdom or my sense of safety or both talking. Well, and love, right?
Yup-- it's hard to know what to want and what's realistic... and how do we know what we should want given all the media-driven messages we've been bombarded with our whole lives about what love and romance are and what we should want? In another culture or time period we likely would not have this concern at all-- we'd think our situation was just normal, we'd have fewer expectations/idealisms, we'd have other values.
I can see how being in an open relationship would make this even harder. There's been times over the years I've wondered if I should be in an open relationship, because I don't seem able to be emotionally monogamous (though I've stayed physically monogamous). What stops me is the idea that it seems like playing with fire. I've seen more marriages end from being open than succeed, though I suppose anything is possible. I just think it would be difficult to sustain the longer-term relationship with the hormone roller coasters of newer relationships also happening.
How does your current 5-year partner feel about how things are going?
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Post by leavethelighton on Sept 12, 2018 1:06:02 GMT
leavethelighton A relationship that is 90% what you want sounds excellent to me! Your outlook sounds very rational. I don't think I'm there yet unfortunately as I don't want kids and historically I've felt worse in ok relationships than when I am single, so I can't really use those things as motivators. I realize it sounds/is very FA for me to say I really do want a relationship but only a great one where I feel strongly about the person and that I'd rather be single otherwise. I'm working on allowing things to build.
Yeah, if you're feeling worse in a relationship than single in a sustained way, that's a bad sign. When I was young I would read the Dear Abbey column in the newspapers, and I remember one of them where she said that if you're trying to decide whether or not to stay in a relationship, you should ask yourself whether you'd be better or worse off being single. Even when a relationship is just okayest, I still haven't usually thought I'd be better off being single (at least, if I do feel that I'd be better off single, the feeling is transitory).
Your last line though, that's great-- that you are looking for things to "build" as opposed to thinking they would necessarily be "great" from the very beginning.
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 12, 2018 1:13:58 GMT
I've mainly only had sparkles with women, though I'm certainly sexually attracted to men. Do you find that you are mentally/emotionally attracted to women, like would you be happy with one as your primary long-term partner or have you tried that? I ask because I know two people who mostly date and mentally connect with one gender but feel most sexually drawn to and sparkly with another gender. Both are highly avoidant. I can explain more details if you like. |
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Post by leavethelighton on Sept 12, 2018 1:14:30 GMT
I have found that the sparkle was basically always my anxiety being activated in a way that mimicked lust. It turned out to not be sustainable nor something to aspire to. I can't handle polyamory personally, but I think if I ever had a primary partner that felt stable and non sparkley when I was AP then met someone I had that overwhelming feeling for, well... I assume I'd have met an avoidant that things wouldn't work out with and my obsessive distraught and attachment injury-driven response after would end up driving away my primary! . . .
Yes, this may explain my entire past ...! Always wanting who I can't have and thinking it's bad luck or a reflection of my lack of desirability, when likely it was also a matter of who I was drawn to. When I think back over the 5 to 10 people I was most drawn to in my life, most of them are clearly DA, though I only realize that now.
I also can't help but wonder if this may then be true for many, many people (like the whole idea of being attracted to the "bad boy" or "bad girl" stereotype). Everyone wants the confident hottie in their black leather jacket and motorcycle, but the person isn't going to stick around...
I'm not polyamorous, but as someone who has had an emotional affair though not a physical one, I guess I should count my lucky stars that as you say "my obsessive distraught and attachment injury-driven response" did not drive away my primary! I hope I never have to go through it all again.
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Post by leavethelighton on Sept 12, 2018 1:22:48 GMT
. . . Though I do feel quite connected, I seem to hang on to this little sliver of doubt about whether the relationship is right for me, and I should figure out whether I derive some feeling of safety from doing that. I could believe it. . . . (Oh my gosh you guys, I should be a sparkle phantom for Hallowe'en.  )
I think I get what you may mean by doubt actually creating safety.... it sounds ironic but I get it.
I actually think that until recently the only way I was able to stay in a 15-year relationship is by having one foot out the door the whole time, in some sort of mental way, some corner of my mind (ever the fantasizer and whatnot, my spouse wasn't my "soulmate" someone else out there was, and that sort of thinking)... We lived together and made two cross-country moves, and had a mortgage and bank accounts and commitment and talk of kids and then kids, but I didn't *feel* completely partnered or like I could fully step into the door. People would use the word "wife" in relation to her and it would throw me for a loop. In some ways I still had the mentality of a single person or the first 13 or so years of it. I had to go through a very dark time and seriously think about divorce before I could really commit internally. Maybe it would have been too psychologically overwhelming to have done so sooner and so we wouldn't have made it this long.
Also, best idea ever for a Halloween costume!
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Post by leavethelighton on Sept 12, 2018 1:30:52 GMT
Andy, now I'm totally trying to figure out what a Halloween costume that was a "ghost" as in someone who never returned a text/email would look like....hmmmm!!!!
The gender stuff in this thread is interesting. If I was single I'd probably just focus on dating women, but I sure like fantasizing about the first boyfriend I had. He's also the only person I've really enjoyed kissing in my life. I wonder if attachment style stuff is part of why I find kissing to just be mostly weird (except with that one first boyfriend who I'd totally peg for a DA, and if not he's certainly a lady's man, except now he seems so happily married. Maybe he met a nice secure one). If I had more of a secure attachment style would I like kissing more and not think it was weird? Or, again, have I always been with the wrong people? See we could go round and round.
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 12, 2018 1:34:17 GMT
For me the process of breaking up makes the ex less attractive to me. I may even be repulsed. If nothing bad happened we can be friends, but I could never be lovers again. Your primary style is DA right? Did you break up with them or them with you? And was it usually a drawn-out or messy breakup? My last phantom ex broke up with me extremely suddenly, so I was left with all the great memories and no bad ones aside from the actual breakup, which was very fast and, well, polite. The one before him didn't even really break up with me per se, just stopped making any effort to see me and pulled back a lot from communication and I stopped chasing him and let him disappear. It was still pretty quick and confusing, and obviously both of them were the ones who rejected me. My sister who did test FA but very slanted towards DA would never have a phantom ex or get back with an ex, regardless of who ended it or how it ended. I think it's a self-protection mechanism for her, that she generally rapidly finds exes repellant and not even suitable for friendship, and they even look physically different to her, for example she might be convinced someone put on a huge amount of weight since their recent breakup, while I think they look the same. |
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 12, 2018 1:49:27 GMT
Andy, now I'm totally trying to figure out what a Halloween costume that was a "ghost" as in someone who never returned a text/email would look like....hmmmm!!!! The gender stuff in this thread is interesting. If I was single I'd probably just focus on dating women, but I sure like fantasizing about the first boyfriend I had. He's also the only person I've really enjoyed kissing in my life. I wonder if attachment style stuff is part of why I find kissing to just be mostly weird (except with that one first boyfriend who I'd totally peg for a DA, and if not he's certainly a lady's man, except now he seems so happily married. Maybe he met a nice secure one). If I had more of a secure attachment style would I like kissing more and not think it was weird? Or, again, have I always been with the wrong people? See we could go round and round. That's what I was thinking about too! I picture it as a ghost, maybe the ghost emoji, with a text message bubble pinned to the front asking something like, "Are we still on for tonight?" with a texting or messaging app read receipt but no reply. Don't even get me started on wondering what weird things to do with my sexuality have to do with my attachment issues. |
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andy
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Post by andy on Sept 12, 2018 1:55:59 GMT
Yup-- it's hard to know what to want and what's realistic... and how do we know what we should want given all the media-driven messages we've been bombarded with our whole lives about what love and romance are and what we should want? In another culture or time period we likely would not have this concern at all-- we'd think our situation was just normal, we'd have fewer expectations/idealisms, we'd have other values.
I can see how being in an open relationship would make this even harder. There's been times over the years I've wondered if I should be in an open relationship, because I don't seem able to be emotionally monogamous (though I've stayed physically monogamous). What stops me is the idea that it seems like playing with fire. I've seen more marriages end from being open than succeed, though I suppose anything is possible. I just think it would be difficult to sustain the longer-term relationship with the hormone roller coasters of newer relationships also happening.
How does your current 5-year partner feel about how things are going?
Yeah, for sure. Love is such a loaded, high-pressure idea. It is supposed to be this supreme life goal where if you don't find it in this socially validated format, you've failed. Friendships don't count in this view of the world. For me I think it's helpful to gain some perspective by valuing ALL of the loving relationships in my life and taking some emphasis off romantic love. I say this as a person with many secure intimate friendships (nowadays), but I totally understand that this would not be helpful or relevant for lots of people. And polyamory is a subculture with its own ideology about love too, of course (though lots of poly people think they are breaking free of any socially imposed expectations - like that is possible). For me I would say that, if anything, poly has stabilized my relationship because it has kept me from running off in search of something shinier. And when I've found shiny people (who didn't stick around), my partner has been super supportive and has also supported me through a couple of hard breakups. Hey, I'm so lucky! I really liked the Dear Abbey guideline you shared, leavethelighton : ask yourself if feel better or worse in a relationship versus out of it, and your answer is clear about whether to stick around. I'm much happier in it. Wow, this discussion is making me feel grateful and happy about my partner and not at all ambivalent about the relationship at the moment. And my phantom ex has maybe even lost a few sequins from her phantom suit in my imagination now. Whoa. It's still this really shiny cool suit but a little bit threadbare in places, maybe?  In answer to your question, my partner says he accepts the format of our relationship. There was a time when he voiced hurt feelings about a few things but I think we have worked through them now, and he says he feels truly okay with things as they are. We've talked it over many times. I think I've gotten better at reaching out to him frequently with affectionate emojis and questions about how he's doing, and so on. I think there's significant compromise happening but we are both much happier in than out. epicgum - You may think I'm joking, but I have had weirder Hallowe'en costumes and I think I am totally going to go for the concept I described... thank you for the encouragement. It will double as therapy. |
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Post by happyidiot on Sept 12, 2018 1:56:27 GMT
Its interesting....one of my (private) reasons for not wanting to live together was losing the sexual passion/sparkle Me too! I can't imagine living with someone I'm romantically involved with now. Sometimes I've even been afraid to see someone very frequently for that reason. For you, were you worried that you'd both lose the passion/sparkle, or were you just thinking about you losing it? |
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andy
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Post by andy on Sept 12, 2018 2:09:44 GMT
I've mainly only had sparkles with women, though I'm certainly sexually attracted to men. Do you find that you are mentally/emotionally attracted to women, like would you be happy with one as your primary long-term partner or have you tried that? I ask because I know two people who mostly date and mentally connect with one gender but feel most sexually drawn to and sparkly with another gender. Both are highly avoidant. I can explain more details if you like. Yes, for whatever reason, I do have this vision of myself in a long-term primary-type relationship with a woman. And yes, I've felt a bit of a disconnect at times between mental/emotional attraction and sexual attraction. For me, the sparkly side is more emotional than sexual, though. Re: kissing, which leavethelighton raised in this thread, I'm super into it with women in general, definitely SUPER into it with sparkle ex, and not really into it (kinda dislike it) with my current partner, even though I've had better sex with him than with sparkle ex, by far. Though the sparkle ex relationship never got to a point of feeling perfectly comfy with each other and knowing each other extremely well, sexually or otherwise, and my five-year relationship is certainly at that point. Anyway, it's all pretty confusing. My partner knows that I could be open to meeting a wife or equivalent - it is all pretty open between us. He joked about it recently in a way that wasn't actually a joke and that was gentle and kind. And for what it's worth, I do not label my current partner as primary (nor does he label me this way), and I specify in my dating app profiles that I'm not looking for something 'on the side,' as is common with many people who already have partners. I am totally interested in details about the dynamics you've observed in others. If you think they are of general relevance and interest, please share! And if not, please feel free to PM me. |
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Post by alexandra on Sept 12, 2018 2:11:59 GMT
I picture it as a ghost, maybe the ghost emoji, with a text message bubble pinned to the front asking something like, "Are we still on for tonight?" with a texting or messaging app read receipt but no reply. That's fantastic!!! |
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Post by epicgum on Sept 12, 2018 2:51:12 GMT
Its interesting....one of my (private) reasons for not wanting to live together was losing the sexual passion/sparkle Me too! I can't imagine living with someone I'm romantically involved with now. Sometimes I've even been afraid to see someone very frequently for that reason. For you, were you worried that you'd both lose the passion/sparkle, or were you just thinking about you losing it? Hmm, I didn't realize that passion and sparkle were different things. In that case not sure if I ever had or wanted the sparkle, but was worried about losing the explosive sexual passion we had whenever we met. |
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Post by alexandra on Sept 12, 2018 2:55:09 GMT
Me too! I can't imagine living with someone I'm romantically involved with now. Sometimes I've even been afraid to see someone very frequently for that reason. For you, were you worried that you'd both lose the passion/sparkle, or were you just thinking about you losing it? Hmm, I didn't realize that passion and sparkle were different things. In that case not sure if I ever had or wanted the sparkle, but was worried about losing the explosive sexual passion we had whenever we met.
I think she meant were you worried both you and your partner would lose it, or just you would lose it? Not that you would lose both, ie passion/sparkle are different things. So far they seem to be used interchangeable throughout the thread.
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