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Post by ocarina on Nov 28, 2018 22:16:43 GMT
Perfect approach - it is so difficult to stick by your truth in these kinds of relationships. Bravo - you're doing the right thing. The only part you can control is your own - his sensitivities are his to manage - or not, as the case may be. Hope all goes well whatever happens.
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Post by tnr9 on Nov 29, 2018 4:00:27 GMT
Update: Thank you all who encouraged me to try having a direct conversation. I had been afraid to do so as I didn't want to scare him away but decided nothing was possible if I couldn't express my own concerns and feelings. Yesterday I phoned him though he prefers texts. I told him I was confused about how ambiguous our relationship was and asked him what he thought of us. He at first bristled and said I was being "aggressive" and I should "just relax." He said it was possibly "damaging" to bring up issues at a "delicate" stage of our seeing each other. He said it was "disturbing" to him that I had concerns. I pressed on saying I was just looking for information, that I thought he was the cat's pajamas but wanted to know if I was misplacing my enthusiasm. I even bravely asked him to clarify why we were not having sex 7 months in here. While he was defensive throughout, he did hang in there for an hour talk, we found moments to laugh, and he admitted he was very slow to build trust and thought that there was a lot to still get to know about each other and he didn't want to have to "report" to me. We ended on a shared laugh. It remains to be seen if he gets spooked after letting it all marinate but I felt real relief in not bottling up my concerns and my enthusuasm. Well done for being honest and true to yourself - even while taking a risk.
He sounds strangely similar to my ex partner - I also like to take things very very slow and have to admit was over the moon when I met a man who was the same - and I foolishly thought that going slowly would safeguard my heart and build a solid relationship. In fact I think it prolonged the agony because I was so patient, took it so slowly, he felt so comfortable that we didn't really come up against the real issues until much later. A long long courtship is reassuring for some people with attachment disorders because none of the uncomfortable stuff that comes up when a relationship gets real, is ever triggered.
I know from what you've written that you're very aware of his limitations - take care that you're not doing everything on his terms to save the relationship from crumbling. You have needs too and they are important - what do you need from a relationship? Can he/ is he giving you this right now?
This was really powerful to me...because many of the "stories" I have going through my head are that this new woman (who to my knowledge is just a friend) is doing things right because she is taking it slow...what you have stated above really helps to counteract that story as being the way to a happy ending. Thank you. |
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Post by alexandra on Nov 29, 2018 4:32:32 GMT
Well done for being honest and true to yourself - even while taking a risk.
He sounds strangely similar to my ex partner - I also like to take things very very slow and have to admit was over the moon when I met a man who was the same - and I foolishly thought that going slowly would safeguard my heart and build a solid relationship. In fact I think it prolonged the agony because I was so patient, took it so slowly, he felt so comfortable that we didn't really come up against the real issues until much later. A long long courtship is reassuring for some people with attachment disorders because none of the uncomfortable stuff that comes up when a relationship gets real, is ever triggered.
I know from what you've written that you're very aware of his limitations - take care that you're not doing everything on his terms to save the relationship from crumbling. You have needs too and they are important - what do you need from a relationship? Can he/ is he giving you this right now?
This was really powerful to me...because many of the "stories" I have going through my head are that this new woman (who to my knowledge is just a friend) is doing things right because she is taking it slow...what you have stated above really helps to counteract that story as being the way to a happy ending. Thank you.
Yes... there's taking things slowly, and there's -- avoiding them. Taking some time to get to know each other is great. Not moving forward because it requires facing the messy stuff inherent to any serious, long-term relationship is not great. AP have trouble understanding the difference because they want to minimize the perception that they are the source of any conflict or expectations because they carry the narrative about being too much and scaring the other person away if they have needs.
I totally agree with ocarina here. It would give me a lot of pause that your partner has spent so long without deep intimacy because it strikes me as avoiding it and the triggers that come with it rather than taking some time alone to do self-work and face it head on. This is the way he is, and you may want to consider keeping the question in mind: does this meet your long-term needs, even if things stay exactly where they are right now? Being told that everything is delicate at 7 months in doesn't indicate your partner is feeling a strong foundation of trust (probably due to his own issues, not because of you). People move at different speeds and have different issues, but what speed is compatible for you? For me personally, I'd want someone who feels he can trust me after 7 months of solid and consistent time spent together.
Definitely a great step forward in communicating, though! I hope you really feel good about yourself for being open, honest, and vulnerable. It can be so difficult but reflects a lot of strength!
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Post by sissyk on Nov 29, 2018 13:27:28 GMT
This was really powerful to me...because many of the "stories" I have going through my head are that this new woman (who to my knowledge is just a friend) is doing things right because she is taking it slow...what you have stated above really helps to counteract that story as being the way to a happy ending. Thank you.
Yes... there's taking things slowly, and there's -- avoiding them. Taking some time to get to know each other is great. Not moving forward because it requires facing the messy stuff inherent to any serious, long-term relationship is not great. AP have trouble understanding the difference because they want to minimize the perception that they are the source of any conflict or expectations because they carry the narrative about being too much and scaring the other person away if they have needs.
I totally agree with ocarina here. It would give me a lot of pause that your partner has spent so long without deep intimacy because it strikes me as avoiding it and the triggers that come with it rather than taking some time alone to do self-work and face it head on. This is the way he is, and you may want to consider keeping the question in mind: does this meet your long-term needs, even if things stay exactly where they are right now? Being told that everything is delicate at 7 months in doesn't indicate your partner is feeling a strong foundation of trust (probably due to his own issues, not because of you). People move at different speeds and have different issues, but what speed is compatible for you? For me personally, I'd want someone who feels he can trust me after 7 months of solid and consistent time spent together.
Definitely a great step forward in communicating, though! I hope you really feel good about yourself for being open, honest, and vulnerable. It can be so difficult but reflects a lot of strength!
He said his parents "never argued" but also has told me before his father used to go driving in the desert for hours to escape his mother. Attachment style informed by childhood indeed! He seemed shocked I was being so direct in airing a concern...like that wasn't something one did. But he did eventually volunteer that the conversation let us lay out how our different backgrounds were informing the current sitch. He IS thoughtful. He may never be capable of a real relationship...his track record is not at all promising. I get this but I want to give this more time and see what happens. This might yet get sorted with disappointment into the friend not real relationship bin. The arms length forever approach isn't sustainable for me long term I feel a real connection but that's what we all think I'm sure  . |
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Post by sissyk on Dec 3, 2018 19:03:29 GMT
OK, peeps! Since my frank talk with DA/FA last Wednesday, I have--surprise--not heard a peep from him.
I need to sit tight and give him space and not reach out first, correct? Or is that overthinking? I am sure I made him very uncomfortable, though he did reiterate we have a ton in common and he wanted to keep seeing me when we talked.
As I noted in this thread, I would be OK with being friends if he is not able/not wanting to be in a relationship as long as he is willing to be frank with me. We have not had sex and he never game me a charm offensive so I am not in toooooooooo deeeeeeeeep. I do really value what I feel is a rare connection and don't want to throw out baby with the bathwater but I also refuse to do all the heavy lifting or chase him even in friendship. But my instinct is to feather smooth.....
I know he is grown man who has proved able to operate the send key on his phone in the past.
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Post by epicgum on Dec 3, 2018 19:22:29 GMT
Yes... there's taking things slowly, and there's -- avoiding them. Taking some time to get to know each other is great. Not moving forward because it requires facing the messy stuff inherent to any serious, long-term relationship is not great. AP have trouble understanding the difference because they want to minimize the perception that they are the source of any conflict or expectations because they carry the narrative about being too much and scaring the other person away if they have needs.
I totally agree with ocarina here. It would give me a lot of pause that your partner has spent so long without deep intimacy because it strikes me as avoiding it and the triggers that come with it rather than taking some time alone to do self-work and face it head on. This is the way he is, and you may want to consider keeping the question in mind: does this meet your long-term needs, even if things stay exactly where they are right now? Being told that everything is delicate at 7 months in doesn't indicate your partner is feeling a strong foundation of trust (probably due to his own issues, not because of you). People move at different speeds and have different issues, but what speed is compatible for you? For me personally, I'd want someone who feels he can trust me after 7 months of solid and consistent time spent together.
Definitely a great step forward in communicating, though! I hope you really feel good about yourself for being open, honest, and vulnerable. It can be so difficult but reflects a lot of strength!
He said his parents "never argued" but also has told me before his father used to go driving in the desert for hours to escape his mother. Attachment style informed by childhood indeed! He seemed shocked I was being so direct in airing a concern...like that wasn't something one did. But he did eventually volunteer that the conversation let us lay out how our different backgrounds were informing the current sitch. He IS thoughtful. He may never be capable of a real relationship...his track record is not at all promising. I get this but I want to give this more time and see what happens. This might yet get sorted with disappointment into the friend not real relationship bin. The arms length forever approach isn't sustainable for me long term I feel a real connection but that's what we all think I'm sure . Fascinating, my parents also "never argue" and my dad also goes hiking literally at every opportunity he gets, possibly to get out of the house. |
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Post by ocarina on Dec 3, 2018 21:56:04 GMT
OK, peeps! Since my frank talk with DA/FA last Wednesday, I have--surprise--not heard a peep from him. I need to sit tight and give him space and not reach out first, correct? Or is that overthinking? I am sure I made him very uncomfortable, though he did reiterate we have a ton in common and he wanted to keep seeing me when we talked. As I noted in this thread, I would be OK with being friends if he is not able/not wanting to be in a relationship as long as he is willing to be frank with me. We have not had sex and he never game me a charm offensive so I am not in toooooooooo deeeeeeeeep. I do really value what I feel is a rare connection and don't want to throw out baby with the bathwater but I also refuse to do all the heavy lifting or chase him even in friendship. But my instinct is to feather smooth..... I know he is grown man who has proved able to operate the send key on his phone in the past. There's not a right thing to do here - be careful you're not in a subconscious way trying to elicit a certain response from him by smoothing the waters. It's really really important not to over compensate for his communication difficulties - it takes two mature people to mould a relationship - he's already been blunt in saying he can't do relationships and this silence would seem to be another indicator that this is true.
You are right that he's a grown man - it's easy to kind of jolly these inconsistent relationships along by being the consistent one - but to be honest you've not asked a lot of him at this point - and if that's too much for him, maybe it's better to know now than a long time down the line.
Be yourself but also be honest with yourself and notice if and when you start to tiptoe into behaving in order to elicit a response. Silence is uncomfortable - and for most people this kind of reaction to conflict (either real or perceived) is destructive in a relationship. Don't let the connection make you believe otherwise. In the long term it's likely that this will be a consistent pattern of inconsistency - the kind of behaviour that pushes secure partners into anxiety.
Remind yourself of what he said re not being very good at relationships.
Sorry if I seem a bit doom and gloom - I've been there and six years down the line, the inconsistency begins to wear thin.
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Post by sissyk on Dec 3, 2018 23:31:00 GMT
OK, peeps! Since my frank talk with DA/FA last Wednesday, I have--surprise--not heard a peep from him. I need to sit tight and give him space and not reach out first, correct? Or is that overthinking? I am sure I made him very uncomfortable, though he did reiterate we have a ton in common and he wanted to keep seeing me when we talked. As I noted in this thread, I would be OK with being friends if he is not able/not wanting to be in a relationship as long as he is willing to be frank with me. We have not had sex and he never game me a charm offensive so I am not in toooooooooo deeeeeeeeep. I do really value what I feel is a rare connection and don't want to throw out baby with the bathwater but I also refuse to do all the heavy lifting or chase him even in friendship. But my instinct is to feather smooth..... I know he is grown man who has proved able to operate the send key on his phone in the past. There's not a right thing to do here - be careful you're not in a subconscious way trying to elicit a certain response from him by smoothing the waters. It's really really important not to over compensate for his communication difficulties - it takes two mature people to mould a relationship - he's already been blunt in saying he can't do relationships and this silence would seem to be another indicator that this is true.
You are right that he's a grown man - it's easy to kind of jolly these inconsistent relationships along by being the consistent one - but to be honest you've not asked a lot of him at this point - and if that's too much for him, maybe it's better to know now than a long time down the line.
Be yourself but also be honest with yourself and notice if and when you start to tiptoe into behaving in order to elicit a response. Silence is uncomfortable - and for most people this kind of reaction to conflict (either real or perceived) is destructive in a relationship. Don't let the connection make you believe otherwise. In the long term it's likely that this will be a consistent pattern of inconsistency - the kind of behaviour that pushes secure partners into anxiety.
Remind yourself of what he said re not being very good at relationships.
Sorry if I seem a bit doom and gloom - I've been there and six years down the line, the inconsistency begins to wear thin.
I like your frankness! Part of the issue is he has bemoaned to me how he regrets being so bad at relationships...so I think I need to take the lead in communication 101. But that is me maybe making excuses for him. |
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Post by ocarina on Dec 3, 2018 23:40:29 GMT
It gets tricky separating what's you and what's him doesn't it.
If he regrets being so bad at relationships - yet again this is his stuff to look at - taking his hand and leading him may feel supportive but it may also be enabling him to continue in his pattern - and allowing him to avoid ever having to confront this difficulty. Has he asked for your help specifically? If not then I am not sure that it's polite or helpful to volunteer as his saviour - particularly since there must be some degree of hope, however small, that he will sort himself out and you will end up in a relationship.
I have learnt the painful and hard way that adults need to learn to take care of themselves - that we have a responsibility to ourselves to behave with compassion - to both ourselves and our partner and that sometimes that compassion takes the form of detachment from a disordered partner in order for them to find their own solution (or not as the case may be). It is natural to want to make things OK but he is beyond your control.
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Post by sissyk on Dec 4, 2018 0:17:11 GMT
It gets tricky separating what's you and what's him doesn't it. If he regrets being so bad at relationships - yet again this is his stuff to look at - taking his hand and leading him may feel supportive but it may also be enabling him to continue in his pattern - and allowing him to avoid ever having to confront this difficulty. Has he asked for your help specifically? If not then I am not sure that it's polite or helpful to volunteer as his saviour - particularly since there must be some degree of hope, however small, that he will sort himself out and you will end up in a relationship. I have learnt the painful and hard way that adults need to learn to take care of themselves - that we have a responsibility to ourselves to behave with compassion - to both ourselves and our partner and that sometimes that compassion takes the form of detachment from a disordered partner in order for them to find their own solution (or not as the case may be). It is natural to want to make things OK but he is beyond your control. He has not asked for my help directly, no. An excellent point. I don't want the failure of our 7 month connection to become more evidence for him that he is bad at relationships. That is sad! I see such a nice soul under that hermit shell. But it is up to him to find his right answer. |
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Post by alexandra on Dec 4, 2018 0:29:31 GMT
sissyk, there's a difference between being aware of something and being willing to do something about it. It's on him to take action, and if he hasn't, then he's not ready or willing no matter what he says. This is something I've had to learn through experience. Often, I've noticed readiness is accompanied by words and actions lining up. If you're very close to someone and have known them a long time, I believe it's okay to tell them one time, without pressure or even much detail unless they ask for more, that you've noticed a problem and offering it as a starting point in case they were unaware (ie, have you heard of avoidant attachment? It's really interesting and may speak to you if you ever look it up). Past that, that's it unless you're asked directly for help. Keep strong boundaries and keep the focus on yourself, don't let someone else work their issues out on you to your own detriment. I'm earned secure from AP and low avoidant, so my opinion in that area may lean different from someone more avoidant. It's really hard for me to just say nothing if I see someone I care about suffering and have information that can help. My light touch followed by strong boundaries approach is working for me because I don't wonder if I should have offered help but also don't push and piss people off. I've had very mixed results in regards to if doing this changes anything: people who are ready for the information actually are grateful and take it to heart, sometimes following up with me later. People who aren't ready don't do anything about it, don't change, and we don't talk about it again. I don't think I've ever made any dents with romantic partners, though. Friends are far more willing to engage about issues. But I think overall, listen to what the partner is really saying (both words and actions), take yourself out of the equation when you're hearing it (don't hear it through your own lens, stay objective), and decide if things never change does it work for you? Maintain your own strong boundaries and be honest with yourself about the answer.
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Post by sissyk on Dec 4, 2018 1:05:25 GMT
Arrrghhhh! This stuff is so tough! I don't think he would appreciate me suggesting attachment theory even though he strikes me as a poster boy as he has a whole mythology about how his decades-ago relationship was so scarring so he he has adapted long-term habits that buttress his "independence." Yet at the same time he is very open with me about how painfully lonely he is, how he regrets not having kids--the works.
I do have skin in the game, for sure. But I also feel for him so it is so hard to just detach.
Thank you all for your thoughtful guidance so far!!!
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Post by alexandra on Dec 4, 2018 1:14:30 GMT
You're doing well, sissyk, you're really thinking it through and you're communicating directly. To put what ocarina said another way, when someone tells you repeatedly they have an issue but takes no real action to change it but gets attention and sympathy from talking about it... if you take them up on the "fix it for me!" bait, it can become very enabling and codependent. As an AP, it pays to be mindful of that trap, no matter how much you just want to help. |
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Post by sissyk on Dec 5, 2018 14:45:46 GMT
Update on my update.
Ouch. I could not resist texting him after a week of silence. I was brief and upbeat and I said if my directness overwhelmed him I was sorry and I would be happy to keep things squarely in friend zone as I value his company more than categories. Which I on real reflection do--or did.
He has not replied.
Ouch ouch. I am realizing though that the past seven months were in some ways a series of small rejections--an unanswered text, a rain check, a invitation not followed through on. This is just the latest--and maybe last.
We have/had a real connection in a lot of ways but I am painfully aware that he would never be a good partner unless he wants to work hard and I see no sign of that. He ran at the first really direct talk and doesn't have the ability or instinct to empathize with me. The Gottman Institute (the marriage research folks) have found that in good relationships, people respond to most of the many small "bids for intimacy" partners offer each other daily and he has not been able to.
Feeling appropriately sad here and also like the past months were a bit of a mirage. But I just had to be direct and don't think I could have played this otherwise. I want someone who is sturdy enough to give to me too.
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Post by tnr9 on Dec 5, 2018 15:44:53 GMT
Update on my update. Ouch. I could not resist texting him after a week of silence. I was brief and upbeat and I said if my directness overwhelmed him I was sorry and I would be happy to keep things squarely in friend zone as I value his company more than categories. Which I on real reflection do--or did. He has not replied. Ouch ouch. I am realizing though that the past seven months were in some ways a series of small rejections--an unanswered text, a rain check, a invitation not followed through on. This is just the latest--and maybe last. We have/had a real connection in a lot of ways but I am painfully aware that he would never be a good partner unless he wants to work hard and I see no sign of that. He ran at the first really direct talk and doesn't have the ability or instinct to empathize with me. The Gottman Institute (the marriage research folks) have found that in good relationships, people respond to most of the many small "bids for intimacy" partners offer each other daily and he has not been able to. Feeling appropriately sad here and also like the past months were a bit of a mirage. But I just had to be direct and don't think I could have played this otherwise. I want someone who is sturdy enough to give to me too. I think that it is best to rephrase it as not mini rejections but more of an inability on his part to meet you where you are at...that way...it isn't about you...but more about him. He has revealed to you who he is....so now you have the information you need to move forward. Unrelated: I sent B a text message this morning as a touch base and he has not responded yet...and it is soooooo easy for me to interpret it as rejection....but that is my interpretation of silence versus knowing his true intentions. And when I have jumped to that conclusion in the past and have owned it as rejection...then it impacts my mood, it raises my anxiety and has made me scared that I did something "wrong"....but that is a little girl's response to silence as opposed to an adult. It says that his silence has meaning and input into my value and worth...which is something I am working on. Detangling my worth from his silence or his words or his actions will be a huge step forward for me because I do struggle with enmeshment and giving people I care about power over my thoughts about myself/them and my reactions. Then I believe I have the same power/influence over them. It truly is exhausting to try to untangle things. |
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