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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 23:25:26 GMT
Maybe someday!
It is suggested that FA is the most difficult to face and overcome, and hopefully advances in understanding (and it would be great if there was less stigma, but unfortunately that seems a way off) - There is a lot of pain in all attachment insecurity but FA has the toughest obstacles, from what I can see. Maybe I'm wrong. But it is very complex and confusing,from the outside looking in.
But he's got a lifetime to try to find his way.
I feel very sad for children, of any insecurely attached person who has not found the healing they need.
It becomes a generational curse, causes so much pain.
And it originated way back on the family tree.
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Post by unluckyinlove on Jan 21, 2019 23:40:13 GMT
Maybe someday! It is suggested that FA is the most difficult to face and overcome, and hopefully advances in understanding (and it would be great if there was less stigma, but unfortunately that seems a way off) - There is a lot of pain in all attachment insecurity but FA has the toughest obstacles, from what I can see. Maybe I'm wrong. But it is very complex and confusing,from the outside looking in. But he's got a lifetime to try to find his way. I feel very sad for children, of any insecurely attached person who has not found the healing they need. It becomes a generational curse, causes so much pain. And it originated way back on the family tree. Oh I agree completely. I actually am so heartbroken for the avoidant and how frustrating it must feel to naturally feel uncomfortable with your emotional responses to love. I told my therapist today that I feel bad for him. She fussed at me because I’m still trying to “love him through it”. I have no contact, don’t intend to, and I’m accepting the relationship is over. As long as I’m doing that, I see no reason why I can’t still “love him through this”. It’s a win for me in my opinion. There’s no reason to hate him. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2019 23:57:30 GMT
Maybe someday! It is suggested that FA is the most difficult to face and overcome, and hopefully advances in understanding (and it would be great if there was less stigma, but unfortunately that seems a way off) - There is a lot of pain in all attachment insecurity but FA has the toughest obstacles, from what I can see. Maybe I'm wrong. But it is very complex and confusing,from the outside looking in. But he's got a lifetime to try to find his way. I feel very sad for children, of any insecurely attached person who has not found the healing they need. It becomes a generational curse, causes so much pain. And it originated way back on the family tree. Oh I agree completely. I actually am so heartbroken for the avoidant and how frustrating it must feel to naturally feel uncomfortable with your emotional responses to love. I told my therapist today that I feel bad for him. She fussed at me because I’m still trying to “love him through it”. I have no contact, don’t intend to, and I’m accepting the relationship is over. As long as I’m doing that, I see no reason why I can’t still “love him through this”. It’s a win for me in my opinion. There’s no reason to hate him. I can only speak for dismissive attachment, and my own personal journey through it. Trying to come out of isolation (which for a very long time was the only place I knew how to be, and of course it originated as a self protective measure) has been a long road. When triggered I go right back there but it doesn't feel ok anymore- it feels like going BACK. It is very painful, at least for me. Once the freeze wears off. Its especially difficult for avoidants, I think , because there seem to be so few therapists who understand DA, or even FA, from the inside. I don't think avoidantly inclined individuals make it into that field, lol. We need more and better attachment therapists. |
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Post by faithopelove on Jan 22, 2019 1:05:10 GMT
faithopelove I'm not saying that's the case with you, or with anyone else in particular. I do know, that many of these relationships end badly but that doesn't mean that either party might not be in a better position to heal having left the relationship behind. Progress can happen post relationship for either one. In many cases it seems to take a series of relationships and growth phases to get to where we are going, with each chapter revealing more, when we are ready and can go to another level of recovery. I’m starting to wonder if he could heal better on his own. It’s hard for me to see him casually, but I think it’s even harder on him to see me based on how he shuts down after. |
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Post by faithopelove on Jan 22, 2019 1:11:30 GMT
In his case he’s avoiding getting any help. He remains alone and sees me and says he’s a mess and in a weird place. He avoids introspection and distracts himself instead. He doesn’t view me as toxic- we both take responsibility for our issues. Mines the same as faithopelove. My FA has said he knows he’s broken and just hasn’t ever gone to therapy or “wherever people go to fix themselves”. But yes...he is aware and chooses not to make the effort. He’s more comfortable dodging feelings. My FA has a list of employers, friends, family and his own daughter that he’s run away from and won’t do his part to fix the relationship. I am aware and working on my issues. He chooses not to work on his. Yes, I guess the label “avoidant” is used for a reason. It’s more comfortable to suppress or turn away from the issues than facing them. It’s hard to watch. And I feel for him and the pain he must be in- for my DA to admit he’s “a mess” is a big confession for him. He tends to glaze things over. I can relate to what you’re going through... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 1:33:26 GMT
faithopelove I'm not saying that's the case with you, or with anyone else in particular. I do know, that many of these relationships end badly but that doesn't mean that either party might not be in a better position to heal having left the relationship behind. Progress can happen post relationship for either one. In many cases it seems to take a series of relationships and growth phases to get to where we are going, with each chapter revealing more, when we are ready and can go to another level of recovery. I’m starting to wonder if he could heal better on his own. It’s hard for me to see him casually, but I think it’s even harder on him to see me based on how he shuts down after. It's very hard to say, and only he can ever make the determination what's best. An avoidant in his position hardly ever pulls the plug, from what I've seen- because on some level it's working as a distraction, a way to get along with their status quo. I'm not judging it because I understand it full well and have engaged in casual and non-relationships through my life and that's really all I could do or tolerate. Being alone was my normal and my nature. I am friends with an ex who had somewhat of an addiction, or an unhealthy indulgence, in our sex. It was a way to relax, escape, enjoy contact, but he couldn't sustain a relationship and he knew it. To continue seeing him on limited terms really would have caused us both pain. He felt guilty and conflicted. I didn't want to be that for him. There is a sense of relief having put that all aside, to just be kind and support each other. He is still in a lot of pain, but I know he's glad he's not inflicting any on me. I don't do casual at all anymore, it's not my normal anymore, now that I have experienced deeper levels of emotional relating , in myself and with others. I'm more in touch and if I am in a relationship I will be giving it my all. At least the best I can. He's a very lovable man. I don't know if he will see his way out of it. But I feel better not being in an enabling role (meaning, a part of the dysfunction) and pursuing my own emotional availability by continuing to explore relationships and what it means to heal myself. As an avoidant I would never say that deactivation or suppression is more comfortable. It's true that I get very detached and enjoy that as a relief from feeling overwhelmed. But that isn't a permanent state. Living in an isolated emotional state that your brain doesn't seem to want to you get out of isn't comfortable if you're depressed or lonely. Its not an easy way out by any means. I no longer have depression or unhappiness so being DA at this stage, working on my emotional health and availability, I don't suffer much. But those still under the cloud of it do, obviously. |
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Post by faithopelove on Jan 22, 2019 3:48:56 GMT
I’m starting to wonder if he could heal better on his own. It’s hard for me to see him casually, but I think it’s even harder on him to see me based on how he shuts down after. It's very hard to say, and only he can ever make the determination what's best. An avoidant in his position hardly ever pulls the plug, from what I've seen- because on some level it's working as a distraction, a way to get along with their status quo. I'm not judging it because I understand it full well and have engaged in casual and non-relationships through my life and that's really all I could do or tolerate. Being alone was my normal and my nature. I am friends with an ex who had somewhat of an addiction, or an unhealthy indulgence, in our sex. It was a way to relax, escape, enjoy contact, but he couldn't sustain a relationship and he knew it. To continue seeing him on limited terms really would have caused us both pain. He felt guilty and conflicted. I didn't want to be that for him. There is a sense of relief having put that all aside, to just be kind and support each other. He is still in a lot of pain, but I know he's glad he's not inflicting any on me. I don't do casual at all anymore, it's not my normal anymore, now that I have experienced deeper levels of emotional relating , in myself and with others. I'm more in touch and if I am in a relationship I will be giving it my all. At least the best I can. He's a very lovable man. I don't know if he will see his way out of it. But I feel better not being in an enabling role (meaning, a part of the dysfunction) and pursuing my own emotional availability by continuing to explore relationships and what it means to heal myself. As an avoidant I would never say that deactivation or suppression is more comfortable. It's true that I get very detached and enjoy that as a relief from feeling overwhelmed. But that isn't a permanent state. Living in an isolated emotional state that your brain doesn't seem to want to you get out of isn't comfortable if you're depressed or lonely. Its not an easy way out by any means. I no longer have depression or unhappiness so being DA at this stage, working on my emotional health and availability, I don't suffer much. But those still under the cloud of it do, obviously. Sounds like you made a lot of progress...suffer. Strong word. These attachment wounds are tough and deep. No, I wouldn’t think living in that isolated, deactivated state is comfortable. It would seem to cause a lot of inner turmoil between what you want and need vs what you’re doing. It’s hard for me to imagine that deactivation- as an AP I instead feel panic and a hijacked nervous system when triggered. This DA is a shell of his former self. I’m an all or nothing person by nature so casual is a challenge for me, but it’s forcing me to be more self-reliant, which is a good thing. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 4:16:26 GMT
It's very hard to say, and only he can ever make the determination what's best. An avoidant in his position hardly ever pulls the plug, from what I've seen- because on some level it's working as a distraction, a way to get along with their status quo. I'm not judging it because I understand it full well and have engaged in casual and non-relationships through my life and that's really all I could do or tolerate. Being alone was my normal and my nature. I am friends with an ex who had somewhat of an addiction, or an unhealthy indulgence, in our sex. It was a way to relax, escape, enjoy contact, but he couldn't sustain a relationship and he knew it. To continue seeing him on limited terms really would have caused us both pain. He felt guilty and conflicted. I didn't want to be that for him. There is a sense of relief having put that all aside, to just be kind and support each other. He is still in a lot of pain, but I know he's glad he's not inflicting any on me. I don't do casual at all anymore, it's not my normal anymore, now that I have experienced deeper levels of emotional relating , in myself and with others. I'm more in touch and if I am in a relationship I will be giving it my all. At least the best I can. He's a very lovable man. I don't know if he will see his way out of it. But I feel better not being in an enabling role (meaning, a part of the dysfunction) and pursuing my own emotional availability by continuing to explore relationships and what it means to heal myself. As an avoidant I would never say that deactivation or suppression is more comfortable. It's true that I get very detached and enjoy that as a relief from feeling overwhelmed. But that isn't a permanent state. Living in an isolated emotional state that your brain doesn't seem to want to you get out of isn't comfortable if you're depressed or lonely. Its not an easy way out by any means. I no longer have depression or unhappiness so being DA at this stage, working on my emotional health and availability, I don't suffer much. But those still under the cloud of it do, obviously. Sounds like you made a lot of progress...suffer. Strong word. These attachment wounds are tough and deep. No, I wouldn’t think living in that isolated, deactivated state is comfortable. It would seem to cause a lot of inner turmoil between what you want and need vs what you’re doing. It’s hard for me to imagine that deactivation- as an AP I instead feel panic and a hijacked nervous system when triggered. This DA seems like a shell of his former self. I’m an all or nothing person by nature so casual is a challenge for me, but it’s forcing me to be more self-reliant, which is a good thing. There are times that I would say, I have felt alien in the world. Not longing to for a place, just seeing that I don't have one. And being ok to march to my own drum and follow my own flow. I don't know if I have felt conflict. Just a sense of being removed, and going my own way; as a fated condition rather than a choice. Like eye color maybe. Or the color of skin. That's just what you've got to work with. There is no way to really know what you've never known, in terms of feeling a deep sense of connection to others. Like, someone can describe what pineapple tastes like but you can't taste it. That's how I have felt about needing another person. You could describe that to me; but I couldn't "taste" it, didn't crave it. For me, DA attachment has been like that, for most of my life. People talk of what it's like to have this or that kind of love and connection and whatever, but for most of my life I thought it was made up. I have felt that connection though, in recent years. I have developed intimate relationships, friends and otherwise. They are rich but there is lots of space around me, even in those relationships. Any partner I have had in awareness, I have been able to share openly about all that and just compromise on what I need and what they need. I don't have it perfected, obviously, I just broke up. But I keep growing on my own path and reflecting on what's most important to me. I don't feel lonely, myself. I feel like I could easily live contentedly with just kind acquaintances and perhaps a fellowship of close friends, who understand me and are available but are the same way, liking to be alone. I like to be in a relationship in some ways, but in the end, they all end one way or another and I can never put all my eggs in that basket. I'll always have me and my interests and inner life and that is what sustains me most. I don't know if there is anything wrong with that at all, it's just the way I am. I know people like me, we are out there and living lives we love. I have come a long way but in the end, I'm not certain that the only way to be a full human is to have close relationships. I think that it's possible to have deep and meaningful, healing exchanges with people you don't even know that well, just fellow humans. Sharing the human experience, relating with understanding, and moving on. Who knows. I probably sound crazy to anyone other than a DA. Who knows. It's hard to explain. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 8:21:58 GMT
Sounds like you made a lot of progress...suffer. Strong word. These attachment wounds are tough and deep. No, I wouldn’t think living in that isolated, deactivated state is comfortable. It would seem to cause a lot of inner turmoil between what you want and need vs what you’re doing. It’s hard for me to imagine that deactivation- as an AP I instead feel panic and a hijacked nervous system when triggered. This DA seems like a shell of his former self. I’m an all or nothing person by nature so casual is a challenge for me, but it’s forcing me to be more self-reliant, which is a good thing. There are times that I would say, I have felt alien in the world. Not longing to for a place, just seeing that I don't have one. And being ok to march to my own drum and follow my own flow. I don't know if I have felt conflict. Just a sense of being removed, and going my own way; as a fated condition rather than a choice. Like eye color maybe. Or the color of skin. That's just what you've got to work with. There is no way to really know what you've never known, in terms of feeling a deep sense of connection to others. Like, someone can describe what pineapple tastes like but you can't taste it. That's how I have felt about needing another person. You could describe that to me; but I couldn't "taste" it, didn't crave it. For me, DA attachment has been like that, for most of my life. People talk of what it's like to have this or that kind of love and connection and whatever, but for most of my life I thought it was made up. I have felt that connection though, in recent years. I have developed intimate relationships, friends and otherwise. They are rich but there is lots of space around me, even in those relationships. Any partner I have had in awareness, I have been able to share openly about all that and just compromise on what I need and what they need. I don't have it perfected, obviously, I just broke up. But I keep growing on my own path and reflecting on what's most important to me. I don't feel lonely, myself. I feel like I could easily live contentedly with just kind acquaintances and perhaps a fellowship of close friends, who understand me and are available but are the same way, liking to be alone. I like to be in a relationship in some ways, but in the end, they all end one way or another and I can never put all my eggs in that basket. I'll always have me and my interests and inner life and that is what sustains me most. I don't know if there is anything wrong with that at all, it's just the way I am. I know people like me, we are out there and living lives we love. I have come a long way but in the end, I'm not certain that the only way to be a full human is to have close relationships. I think that it's possible to have deep and meaningful, healing exchanges with people you don't even know that well, just fellow humans. Sharing the human experience, relating with understanding, and moving on. Who knows. I probably sound crazy to anyone other than a DA. Who knows. It's hard to explain. actually, i think this is not a unique feeling to DAs. I definitely felt the same - alienated from the world and never really knowing what a deep connection feels like. I always thought of myself as an observer of the world, not really a participant in it. I never felt like I had a place in it, nor that I will have, and that I just am doing my own weird thing as much as i can in this world that I don't quite understand and cannot truly participate in it. I never felt like someone will take his place beside me, or that I truly belong beside someone. i also think that all relationships end in one way or another, and that I cannot depend only on one person - this is particularly so in terms of romantic relationships. At the end of the day, I don't develop strong, close, intimate relationships with most people unless they have been in my life for a very long time (like years) and proven themselves to be on my side without judgment. I'm a self-identified AP based on my recent serious relationships, but I am DA in alot of other ways in with most other people. tbh, I don't even know what I am anymore, just that I have insecure attachment and that I'm tired of it. The one thing I did notice is that DAs around me (including myself at times) is this sense that others don't truly understand this feeling of isolation. that is simply not true. perhaps there're different shades of it and manifests differently, but I really don't believe that the feelings are that unique. my DA-love-interest has said before that I understand, when i asked him why are we friends when we are such different people. and i do understand what he was saying, because that's exactly how i feel. I didn't need to explain to him this sense of not having a place in this world, and a sense of isolation, that other people simply do not seem to have. there is this... depth in him that I can immediately sense and see, and vice versa. i do know that I lean towards AP when it comes to serious, committed, romantic relationships though. I now see that we just process and manage it differently, and when we are interacting, that difference really challenges our own worldviews and protection mechanisms. i've come to this conclusion after alot of self work and discussions with aware and unaware insecures. I saw how much i held onto this sense as part of my identity and how much i used it to navigate life, particularly so in terms of using it to differentiate myself because that was such a strong sense that i can see most people don't have. i definitely agree with you that it is possible to have "deep and meaningful, healing exchanges with people you don't even know that well, just fellow humans. Sharing the human experience, relating with understanding, and moving on." I believe some interactions are meant exactly for that, and not more. I think all forms of relationships are important to add to the diversity and fullness of being humans - short and long ones. the challenge is in having the skills to nurture the short ones into long ones in an organic, loving, accepting way, and letting the ones that didn't work out fall away in the same fashion. The bottomline, to and for me, is no longer about nurturing these relationships and whether or not they are important. I just want to focus on being authentic, integrated, and have less ego that serves to protect me but doesn't allow me to evolve to be a better me. With that intention, i believe that good relationships are an outcome, and they will come in many different forms, and that is ok. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 12:22:32 GMT
@shiningstar Thank you, I love the last paragraph especially and completely relate. I think the degree of unhealthy is related to the degree of unhappy. I'm generally happy and content and living deeply. Episodes of deactivation feel like a setback but are temporary, and can improve with time and more work. But life is good!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 12:49:40 GMT
Also, @shiningstar, I'll check out your posts.
I know you said you are AP in romantic, but we seem to share a perspective and that's neat.
I agree too about what you said about relationships.
I let them evolve to long term if there is mutual benefit and personal growth and happiness available, and if not, I let them go.
Anyway, trying to avoid hijacking the thread, I'll read more of your posts. Thanks again! p
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Post by sissyk on Jan 22, 2019 13:27:08 GMT
This is a very informative thread. Great perspectives here which I am finding very valuable.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 14:23:01 GMT
This is a very informative thread. Great perspectives here which I am finding very valuable. For me too! Unexpected but cool! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 14:55:57 GMT
I guess there is one more point I would make, as an avoidant in recovery.
This is my own experience, take it with a grain of salt.
Healing dismissive attachment and becoming more emotionally available doesn't necessarily mean that romantic relationships become more critical or a priority or deep desire for a DA. I've seen many still able to take it or leave it, myself included. If I meet a partner I can really relax and settle with then I would be happy to. But I have a stronger need for personal freedom to be genuine and live within my values than I do to be deeply engaged with another person in a romantic relationship.
There would have to be a strong, deep affinity that allows me to grow and love how I grow and love. That's good for any person I think.
Compromise shouldn't have to include a personality makeover.
For me, after even years of awareness, it means that I am more able to relate in a healthy way and participate consistently.
I'm still a work in progress, but still choose solitude over a hard grind in relationship.
Solitude is wonderful and enriching to me in many ways, and I can see and have experienced that relationships can be wonderful and growth-provoking in many ways.
I find it hard to imagine AP and DA, even with a lot of individual growth, really resonating deeply together but wouldn't discount someone's real experience of that if they found it.
I just find it hard to imagine, because our home base that we originate from is so vastly different and probably influenced by temperament as well.
I mean that one's intrinsic nature may help determine who goes AP and who goes DA, in addition to the style of early caregiving one received.
That's just how I ponder it and what I come up with, doesn't mean that couple can't make it but I don't know if it could ever be what either person needs or wants the most.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2019 23:22:27 GMT
It is quite interesting, that when APs talk about recovery and healing, they talk about being more independent and trying to rely less on relationships and more on themselves, while DAs seem to highlight personal freedom and relationships are still not quite important to them. have you all noticed that as well? on a personal note, it's quite triggering for me when i read that, because my ex-DA will tell me that repeatedly and it feels like a threat or hint or subtext. like.. i actually prefer being alone, and being with you is such a sacrifice for me. don't fight with me and stop asking for stuff, because i don't need you and i can walk away whenever i want. i KNOW we don't NEED each other in life - i don't NEED a relationship that's fraught with so much uncertainty either. when i keep getting reminded of it explicitly, it started to feel like a threat to tell me to stay in my place and keep myself quiet. it's like, why are you telling me this? what is the point of it? how does it help the relationship when you keep stating you're so good at being alone? it was very confusing for me because on one hand, he says he wants to have healthy relationships and bond better, but on the other, he keeps flagging that he's independent and wants his freedom and can walk away from relationships whenever he want. While I think both statements are true for everyone (at least both of us), highlighting the latter is not helping the former. to your point about resonating deeply together - i don't think AP/DA resonate about relationships at all! There's definitely a difference regarding the need for connection as you've said. but that sense of isolation and not belonging to anyone/anywhere, to me, is quite similar. It might be possible that APs due to their inconsistent experiences of bonding know what bonding can be like, and thus want it more. while DAs have made peace with not having it and found other ways to manage it. ps: faithopelove sorry i'm hijacked this thread!!! |
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