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Post by happyidiot on May 15, 2019 21:55:37 GMT
happyFA here. I'm not offended by your rant at all, and I might have some perspective/answers you haven't considered/no one has brought up. I just have no time to type it all up for a few days, so I wanted to say something so you check back. For the record, I'm also not super sympathetic to people who appear stuck and unwilling to work on themselves and I don't think attachment type precludes them from making an effort to have a little self-insight. I don't think someone having a shitty childhood means you can't think they're being a jerk. Compassion is good of course though.
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Post by tnr9 on May 16, 2019 2:26:22 GMT
happy FA here. I'm not offended by your rant at all, and I might have some perspective/answers you haven't considered/no one has brought up. I just have no time to type it all up for a few days, so I wanted to say something so you check back. For the record, I'm also not super sympathetic to people who appear stuck and unwilling to work on themselves and I don't think attachment type precludes them from making an effort to have a little self-insight. I don't think someone having a shitty childhood means you can't think they're being a jerk. Compassion is good of course though. Looking forward to reading your answers.
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Post by 8675309 on May 17, 2019 3:25:32 GMT
I think some of this is taken a bit out of context in ways. Also a being secure does not mean you have not experienced bad things. I dont talk much about what Ive gone through here in my childhood/teen years. I wouldn't have the chunk of avoidance in my attachment if I didn't experience trauma. Im lucky enough my base is secure but dont think I didn't experience serious trauma in my life. Or any other secure here.
Its just as hard for those to see where we come from as secures as to see where you come from as an insecure. Its both sides of the fence.
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Post by happyidiot on May 19, 2019 7:18:30 GMT
happy tnr9Ok so here are my thoughts, as an FA. While they exist, I don't know if there are really THAT many of us who go through our lives running through relationship after relationship where we fall out of love overnight or just never develop feelings for the person. It's often much more complex, subtle or infrequent than that. However, I do know the type you are talking about. Some people do seem to have such a pattern that seems like it should be an obvious clue to do some introspection and find out why this is happening, so it can appear to an outsider that they must be being willfully ignorant. And maybe they are to a degree in some cases. I think self-insight can be very difficult for many people. And scary! I am a very introspective person with relatively good self-insight, who is constantly working on personal growth and trying to have better relationships, and even after learning about attachment theory it still took me a good while to realize I was FA (and not just AP), and I remember being freaked out when I realized. Some people are not in a place where they can face their demons. So they believe every justification their mind tells them for their avoidance. And if they're like me, they might surround themselves with other people of their attachment type, which can help stop them from realizing not everyone feels/behaves like they do. I remember, before I knew anything about attachment theory, getting plenty of bad advice from insecure-attacher friends or being told by them that I was perfectly normal. I really don't know how I eventually started reading about attachment theory and found this forum, but I bet I was Googling something about people suddenly breaking up with you out of nowhere, since that had happened to me. I was certainly not Googling my own FA traits, except maybe "inability to get over an ex" or something like that. Now, the guy that triggered my Googling, he had some of the history you mentioned, he thought everything was objectively great and that I was cool and sexy and smart and all that stuff but he perplexingly just didn't love me and suddenly felt an urge to end things and chalked it up to me just not being "the right person", love being a "mysterious" thing, etc. But here's the thing, he felt this was the ONLY time this had ever happened to him because typically he just finds some reason to break up with someone as they start getting close, like running at the first minor fight or finding something to dislike about them. He just couldn't conjure up a reason with me. Another man I knew had a history of REPEATEDLY waking up one day and ending serious long-term relationships because he got a sudden feeling to flee. I'm not too sure what he thought or felt about that, but I do know he realized it was something "abnormal" about him and I doubt he ever thought to try to find help. But I think you might be mistaken about this necessarily feeling bad (and that it should therefore prompt people to seek help). I think for many of us it can feel like a relief. Avoidant people feel safer avoiding. So I guess that while I feel that having attachment issues doesn't excuse someone from being an inconsiderate jerk or preclude them from working on themselves, I can definitely see why many people don't realize what is going on with them or wonder if it's something they can change, or think to do an internet search on the topic.
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Post by tnr9 on May 19, 2019 14:37:41 GMT
happy tnr9 Ok so here are my thoughts, as an FA. While they exist, I don't know if there are really THAT many of us who go through our lives running through relationship after relationship where we fall out of love overnight or just never develop feelings for the person. It's often much more complex, subtle or infrequent than that. However, I do know the type you are talking about. Some people do seem to have such a pattern that seems like it should be an obvious clue to do some introspection and find out why this is happening, so it can appear to an outsider that they must be being willfully ignorant. And maybe they are to a degree in some cases. I think self-insight can be very difficult for many people. And scary! I am a very introspective person with relatively good self-insight, who is constantly working on personal growth and trying to have better relationships, and even after learning about attachment theory it still took me a good while to realize I was FA (and not just AP), and I remember being freaked out when I realized. Some people are not in a place where they can face their demons. So they believe every justification their mind tells them for their avoidance. And if they're like me, they might surround themselves with other people of their attachment type, which can help stop them from realizing not everyone feels/behaves like they do. I remember, before I knew anything about attachment theory, getting plenty of bad advice from insecure-attacher friends or being told by them that I was perfectly normal. I really don't know how I eventually started reading about attachment theory and found this forum, but I bet I was Googling something about people suddenly breaking up with you out of nowhere, since that had happened to me. I was certainly not Googling my own FA traits, except maybe "inability to get over an ex" or something like that. Now, the guy that triggered my Googling, he had some of the history you mentioned, he thought everything was objectively great and that I was cool and sexy and smart and all that stuff but he perplexingly just didn't love me and suddenly felt an urge to end things and chalked it up to me just not being "the right person", love being a "mysterious" thing, etc. But here's the thing, he felt this was the ONLY time this had ever happened to him because typically he just finds some reason to break up with someone as they start getting close, like running at the first minor fight or finding something to dislike about them. He just couldn't conjure up a reason with me. Another man I knew had a history of REPEATEDLY waking up one day and ending serious long-term relationships because he got a sudden feeling to flee. I'm not too sure what he thought or felt about that, but I do know he realized it was something "abnormal" about him and I doubt he ever thought to try to find help. But I think you might be mistaken about this necessarily feeling bad (and that it should therefore prompt people to seek help). I think for many of us it can feel like a relief. Avoidant people feel safer avoiding. So I guess that while I feel that having attachment issues doesn't excuse someone from being an inconsiderate jerk or preclude them from working on themselves, I can definitely see why many people don't realize what is going on with them or wonder if it's something they can change, or think to do an internet search on the topic. Thank you so much for explaining this. 🙂
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 15:41:47 GMT
happyidiot, I relate a lot to what you're saying. Being avoidant and having trouble deciphering my feelings and what's best for me sometimes, I have found myself on an unconfortable path with someone without clarity about what the issues are. In all cases of breaking it off though, I can say with confidence, in retrospect, that it was the best thing to do. Why? because the relationship wasn't healthy and it takes two. Its not like everything was hunky dory and the dynamic was healthy and then BOOM I ended it. Looking at my own limitations, do I think the person involved and invested with me was healthy? Absolutely not. And, it's true- ending it came after a long period of introspection and trying to untangle things in myself. It may be upsetting to another person, I get that. But upsetting to me? Enpugh to prompt a midnight google search into WHY DID I DO THAT?!? No way! Because I do what I feel the next right move is once I figure out what that is. Everyone else has to do the same. I wasn't with secure partners when I was deep in avoidance. Nope. I wasn't alone, it was mutually dysfunctional. And it was a relief to become decisive. It's regrettable that things couldn't have been more clear and communicated but that's the nature of attachment issues . It's not better to lead someone on.... and I get that it's better to avoid all dysfunction in the first place but HELLLOOOOOO 😂 The only time I did a google search about my relationship issues is when I struggled to leave something that wasn't good for me. I was attached to an unhealthy partner. When I've I left something I didn't want to be in anymore I haven't spent time second guessing it. Why question something I feel actual relief about? That makes no sense to me just like I don't make sense to someone who can't relate. This was my entire point in everything I shared here- on the inside of this it plays out very differently than people assume it "should"- and it's due to conditioned internal states.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 16:14:24 GMT
I'd also point out that the failure of relationships can be attributed to many other factors. And, how it perceived by one party doesn't always resonate with how another party perceives it.
Sometimes one partner is so rigid and convinced of their perceptions that the other partner stops trying to communicate where they are at- they actually give up. I've been there. I wasn't heard; I wasn't listened to, my position was twisted and distorted by the other person according to their narrative; and ultimately I gave a pat answer to end the conversation because all points were moot. Why beat a dead horse?
Age and mental / emotional maturity can be a significant factor as well; OP states in another thread that his age is 18. If he is engaging with partners similar to his age range and this has happened to him, brain development could contribute. Research is showing that the brain doesn't reach developmental maturity until perhaps the early 20's.
So, there are a lot of things at play in the dramas that occur between two people; it's not always down to attachment. Who knows, everyone has an opinion but essentially, acceptance of another's limitations and attention to what is within your own realm of control seems to be the route recommended by those in the know.
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Post by happyidiot on May 21, 2019 5:27:39 GMT
happyidiot , I relate a lot to what you're saying. Being avoidant and having trouble deciphering my feelings and what's best for me sometimes, I have found myself on an unconfortable path with someone without clarity about what the issues are. In all cases of breaking it off though, I can say with confidence, in retrospect, that it was the best thing to do. Why? because the relationship wasn't healthy and it takes two. Its not like everything was hunky dory and the dynamic was healthy and then BOOM I ended it. Looking at my own limitations, do I think the person involved and invested with me was healthy? Absolutely not. And, it's true- ending it came after a long period of introspection and trying to untangle things in myself. It may be upsetting to another person, I get that. But upsetting to me? Enpugh to prompt a midnight google search into WHY DID I DO THAT?!? No way! Because I do what I feel the next right move is once I figure out what that is. Everyone else has to do the same. I wasn't with secure partners when I was deep in avoidance. Nope. I wasn't alone, it was mutually dysfunctional. And it was a relief to become decisive. It's regrettable that things couldn't have been more clear and communicated but that's the nature of attachment issues . It's not better to lead someone on.... and I get that it's better to avoid all dysfunction in the first place but HELLLOOOOOO 😂 The only time I did a google search about my relationship issues is when I struggled to leave something that wasn't good for me. I was attached to an unhealthy partner. When I've I left something I didn't want to be in anymore I haven't spent time second guessing it. Why question something I feel actual relief about? That makes no sense to me just like I don't make sense to someone who can't relate. This was my entire point in everything I shared here- on the inside of this it plays out very differently than people assume it "should"- and it's due to conditioned internal states. Yeah, I have never really regretted ending a relationship and I haven't done it without careful consideration (although I recognize that there are definitely people who do it suddenly and I've been on the receiving end of that kind of dumping. And I guess those people who are acting rashly are the ones most likely to circle back). The closest I've felt to "regret" was that when I went through a tough time a while after I ended my longest relationship and I was getting frustrated with dating and had had my heart broken, I remember thinking about how my (secure) ex was the nicest person I've ever met, who loved me unconditionally, and I felt sad that I'd never find someone like that again. But this certainly didn't prompt me to start looking into why I was no longer attracted to him and had broken up with him. It was complicated and I had reasons other than purely avoidance. I think that people who can't relate may have an incorrect idea of what is typically going on in the avoidant person's head. I have seen the rare post where an FA or DA regretted breaking up with their partner but I don't think that's the norm, and those are obviously people who did already do some Googling and found out about attachment theory. I get the impression that someone who gets dumped by an FA or even DA often thinks that the thought process in the mind of the avoidant person is something like, "Everything is great, I'm so in love! OMG love is scary! Weird, I suddenly don't love them anymore, guess that means I should end this right now without any thought for no other reason. Now I'm incredibly sad, what we had was so wonderful and I threw it away, what's wrong with me? Oh well, guess I won't wonder about that. On to the next." Even if someone actually has no clue why they ended a seemingly good relationship or why they never felt "in love with" someone who on paper was everything they were looking for, it might not feel distressing for them and it may not be something they believe has been happening repeatedly or is a big problem. And they may get reinforcing messages like, "You can't force love," "You can't choose who you fall in love with," "It's ok to fall out of love," "With the right person, things will be easy," and so on. Avoiding feels safe.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 5:45:59 GMT
Avoiding feels safe, yes, but what also amazes me is how many people especially here, seem to think that avoidants leave because they were "afraid" of "love" as if, things were just so intimate and good the avoidant just naturally deactivated 😂. Ok, I just don't get that. The whole fear thing is way overplayed in that regard in my opinion. It's complicated and very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it. I leave due to a threat to my security in myself, maybe, but that threat isn't "intimacy" in the true sense of the word. Love is frightening because of the fear of loss associated with it, for me- but that will cause me to preemptively avoid it, and in doing so I've chosen partners equally unhealthy (makes sense! you really do attract and become attracted to what you're ready for, that goes for anxious and avoidant alike) . In choosing unhealthy emotionally unavailable partners, I've been in and left dysfunction. Yes yes I understand an avoidant can trigger a secure but more often I believe insecures meet their own level. More likely , with a secure, emotional availability will be uncomfortable for the avoidant and they will sabotage it. Just an opinion, maybe you get me happyidiot, I don't know, I need to have my coffee lol.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 5:55:51 GMT
happyidiot your presumed avoidant though process has me in stitches but yes that is kind of how people seem to interpret it?
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Post by happyidiot on May 21, 2019 6:09:59 GMT
Avoiding feels safe, yes, but what also amazes me is how many people especially here, seem to think that avoidants leave because they were "afraid" of "love" as if, things were just so intimate and good the avoidant just naturally deactivated 😂. Ok, I just don't get that. The whole fear thing is way overplayed in that regard in my opinion. It's complicated and very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it. I leave due to a threat to my security in myself, maybe, but that threat isn't "intimacy" in the true sense of the word. Love is frightening because of the fear of loss associated with it, for me- but that will cause me to preemptively avoid it, and in doing so I've chosen partners equally unhealthy (makes sense! you really do attract and become attracted to what you're ready for, that goes for anxious and avoidant alike) . In choosing unhealthy emotionally unavailable partners, I've been in and left dysfunction. Yes yes I understand an avoidant can trigger a secure but more often I believe insecures meet their own level. More likely , with a secure, emotional availability will be uncomfortable for the avoidant and they will sabotage it. Just an opinion, maybe you get me happyidiot , I don't know, I need to have my coffee lol. I think it may partly be because a lot of articles say things like, "the love avoidant is afraid of intimacy" and also because a person who got dumped by an avoidant person may have felt a rosy connection so they assume the avoidant was feeling the exact same way until they freaked out and ran in terror when the dumpee said "I love you" or introduced them to their parents. Avoidants are actually afraid of loss, abandonment and also being smothered or controlled. And some people have speculated that maybe APs are actually afraid of real intimacy? Also I wanted to point out that someone can have a secure attachment style and still have problems.
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 21, 2019 8:44:54 GMT
As an AP I am afraid of abandonment too, A LOT, therefore, I think I also sabotage getting close to a partner, but in different ways. Questioning their love for me, looking to find proof that something is wrong (cheating is on my top list) and so on. I never seem to question how I feel about my partner and maybe that's just another big difference.
I do all of this because I'm afraid it will end, so I don't wanna get too close (but I do) to a avoid the pain in the inevitable end. I'm convinced all relationships end.
So, of course I like the intimacy, what follows it what scares me. I don't think I can separate those two. That's how I understand what you're writing. I read it as "bottom line, you're afraid of intimacy,not in itself, but the closer you get, the more real it gets, the more painful it'll be when the abandonment happens"
Either I really don't understand the difference,or I'm more of an FA than I thought 😂
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 11:26:52 GMT
Avoiding feels safe, yes, but what also amazes me is how many people especially here, seem to think that avoidants leave because they were "afraid" of "love" as if, things were just so intimate and good the avoidant just naturally deactivated 😂. Ok, I just don't get that. The whole fear thing is way overplayed in that regard in my opinion. It's complicated and very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it. I leave due to a threat to my security in myself, maybe, but that threat isn't "intimacy" in the true sense of the word. Love is frightening because of the fear of loss associated with it, for me- but that will cause me to preemptively avoid it, and in doing so I've chosen partners equally unhealthy (makes sense! you really do attract and become attracted to what you're ready for, that goes for anxious and avoidant alike) . In choosing unhealthy emotionally unavailable partners, I've been in and left dysfunction. Yes yes I understand an avoidant can trigger a secure but more often I believe insecures meet their own level. More likely , with a secure, emotional availability will be uncomfortable for the avoidant and they will sabotage it. Just an opinion, maybe you get me happyidiot , I don't know, I need to have my coffee lol. The thing is the fear of love is the fear of loss. So you're right. It's the fear of loss and the lack of faith in being capable of handling grief (whether it's of the other or yourself). It's the fear of comings and goings. The fear of giving and receiving. The fear of engulfment and abandonment. No one is free from these fears. I think secures are just a bit better at integrating it, but we're all terrified of grief aren't we? I know I am and I'm secure. Nothing prepares you for loss. There's this book by David Richo called "When Love Meets Fear" that really made the fear of love make sense for me because it sounds so silly doesn't it? Someone just got overwhelmed by love and ran away? Life isn't a rom com. This book explains how being loved and the fear of loss, closeness, etc. really stir up these fears and causes people to act out. I'm pointing this out because I'm secure, but I was dating an emotionally unavailable guy (DA/FA). He told me he couldn't officially commit because he didn't feel "enough." I definitely believed him and I don't think he just deactivated over night. I just felt more than he did, but was he scared of closeness, intimacy, and see me and other potential partners as a threat to his own security? Absolutely. So for me it doesn't really matter if the love is there or not or if the relationship is healthy or unhealthy - it's the fear of love all the same when someone sabotages a relationship either by clinging or avoiding.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 12:57:21 GMT
Avoiding feels safe, yes, but what also amazes me is how many people especially here, seem to think that avoidants leave because they were "afraid" of "love" as if, things were just so intimate and good the avoidant just naturally deactivated 😂. Ok, I just don't get that. The whole fear thing is way overplayed in that regard in my opinion. It's complicated and very difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it. I leave due to a threat to my security in myself, maybe, but that threat isn't "intimacy" in the true sense of the word. Love is frightening because of the fear of loss associated with it, for me- but that will cause me to preemptively avoid it, and in doing so I've chosen partners equally unhealthy (makes sense! you really do attract and become attracted to what you're ready for, that goes for anxious and avoidant alike) . In choosing unhealthy emotionally unavailable partners, I've been in and left dysfunction. Yes yes I understand an avoidant can trigger a secure but more often I believe insecures meet their own level. More likely , with a secure, emotional availability will be uncomfortable for the avoidant and they will sabotage it. Just an opinion, maybe you get me happyidiot , I don't know, I need to have my coffee lol. The thing is the fear of love is the fear of loss. So you're right. It's the fear of loss and the lack of faith in being capable of handling grief (whether it's of the other or yourself). It's the fear of comings and goings. The fear of giving and receiving. The fear of engulfment and abandonment. No one is free from these fears. I think secures are just a bit better at integrating it, but we're all terrified of grief aren't we? I know I am and I'm secure. Nothing prepares you for loss. There's this book by David Richo called "When Love Meets Fear" that really made the fear of love make sense for me because it sounds so silly doesn't it? Someone just got overwhelmed by love and ran away? Life isn't a rom com. This book explains how being loved and the fear of loss, closeness, etc. really stir up these fears and causes people to act out. I'm pointing this out because I'm secure, but I was dating an emotionally unavailable guy (DA/FA). He told me he couldn't officially commit because he didn't feel "enough." I definitely believed him and I don't think he just deactivated over night. I just felt more than he did, but was he scared of closeness, intimacy, and see me and other potential partners as a threat to his own security? Absolutely. So for me it doesn't really matter if the love is there or not or if the relationship is healthy or unhealthy - it's the fear of love all the same when someone sabotages a relationship either by clinging or avoiding. Exactly, well said. The core, deep, visceral belief for a dismissive seems to be, in my own experience of it, "It is better to never have loved, than to have loved and lost." There can be many philosophical arguments against it, but the deep feeling we have is "I know I am ok alone. I don't know if I will be ok with you, or after you. I choose the status quo because I can survive and even thrive here. " When you consider the origins of this injury it is not difficult to understand. And, there seem to be a lot of rom-com narratives on this forum, especially those who are holding on for upwards of a year, or two. It's just not that way, but I get that the AP fantasy makes it seem real somehow. Or does it not? Idk. But it's not like the movies AT ALL.
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 21, 2019 13:36:45 GMT
The thing is the fear of love is the fear of loss. So you're right. It's the fear of loss and the lack of faith in being capable of handling grief (whether it's of the other or yourself). It's the fear of comings and goings. The fear of giving and receiving. The fear of engulfment and abandonment. No one is free from these fears. I think secures are just a bit better at integrating it, but we're all terrified of grief aren't we? I know I am and I'm secure. Nothing prepares you for loss. There's this book by David Richo called "When Love Meets Fear" that really made the fear of love make sense for me because it sounds so silly doesn't it? Someone just got overwhelmed by love and ran away? Life isn't a rom com. This book explains how being loved and the fear of loss, closeness, etc. really stir up these fears and causes people to act out. I'm pointing this out because I'm secure, but I was dating an emotionally unavailable guy (DA/FA). He told me he couldn't officially commit because he didn't feel "enough." I definitely believed him and I don't think he just deactivated over night. I just felt more than he did, but was he scared of closeness, intimacy, and see me and other potential partners as a threat to his own security? Absolutely. So for me it doesn't really matter if the love is there or not or if the relationship is healthy or unhealthy - it's the fear of love all the same when someone sabotages a relationship either by clinging or avoiding. Exactly, well said. The core, deep, visceral belief for a dismissive seems to be, in my own experience of it, "It is better to never have loved, than to have loved and lost." There can be many philosophical arguments against it, but the deep feeling we have is "I know I am ok alone. I don't know if I will be ok with you, or after you. I choose the status quo because I can survive and even thrive here. " When you consider the origins of this injury it is not difficult to understand. And, there seem to be a lot of rom-com narratives on this forum, especially those who are holding on for upwards of a year, or two. It's just not that way, but I get that the AP fantasy makes it seem real somehow. Or does it not? Idk. But it's not like the movies AT ALL. I think movies have played a part in it, but of course it's not the main reason I hold on to the fantasy, they just add to it a bit. It's how my fear of abandonment manifests, I think. "They are abandoning me, my fear is overwhelming, I have to find ways to believe it's not happening, it can't be". "We did share strong feelings for each other, how did he change this fast?". To be honest I can't blame anyone for thinking their avoidant is a douche when either are not aware of attachment styles. Anyone that hears my story have horrible things to say about him. I try to explain but they see it as me clinging on. The only reason I didnt hate mine was because I did see the kindness in him and the torture in his eyes when he kept repeating "I want to be single forever". It was like he was trying to convince himself and if he repeated it many times he would achieve it. And this is what I thought before I found out about attachment styles. Mind you, I know he will be fine single, but I also know that companionship is a basic human need and it showed that he does want it. He didn't dump me out of the blue, obviously, but I still was confused as to how such a nice guy treated me this way, and that's what brought me to the eye-opening experience of attachment styles. I am very understanding now as to why he acted this way and I wish I could help him for his own sake, just like this is helping me, but I can't. I suffer from lowish confidence too, as I think most APs do, so although I haven't blamed myself for the break up, I do understand why some may hold on to the fantasy longer. It's hell when someone just bolts, one could blame themselves that they weren't enough and that's a hard pill to swallow when you think you've tried your best. Even when your best might be suffocating for the other, but you have no clue because that's how love was introduced to you and you're just repeating it. Not to mention, the root of the problem is our caregivers. I can only talk about mine, so she was always there. Even when she wasn't supporting me or giving me the attention I needed, she always "came back"; she always loved me. Might not have been the love I needed, but it was there. So my mother loved me but in a dismissive way. Maybe we're just used to the pish and pull?
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