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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2019 14:25:06 GMT
Jeb Kinnison 😂 he gets some things right and a lot wrong when it comes to the inside workings, but he's based his opinions on the research from others that don't have the inside experience of avoidant attachment also. Natalie Lue , God bless her, she has so much wisdom but also resorts to name calling and vilifying avoidants. I have enjoyed her site tremendously and benefitted from it but she has huge blond spots and takes kind of a "them vs US" stance.
In my opinion, writers like these show their own flawed humanity in anti-avoidant perspectives but you have to be open to what's helpful and toss the rest. There are countless others who write blogs but too many to name.
I focus on the authors who have understanding and insight that I can actually relate to as an avoidant- because yeah, my experience as an avoidant is relevant. No one can convince me I'm a monster haha! Because I most certainly am not. You have to have a thick skin to wade through some of the crap out here but that's what we are known for so it's alright 😬😁
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 14, 2019 14:56:22 GMT
@sherry so true! I was actually reading a thread earlier in this section titled "another take", it has a review from Amazon, from a counselor that says he actually only suggests Jeb's book to people who are in abusive relationships with avoidants so it can help them leave. I can find it via search with the keyword "review". Very interesting take.
I don't know if my ex is an avoidant, but he is definitely not a monster. Still am on 40% of the book, I will finish it, but one of the reasons I stopped was because it was way too judgemental! It makes avoidants look as if they're cluster B personalities. Been there, done that, THAT'S hell.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2019 15:10:05 GMT
mamut, I saw that same review. I agree- people get all hysterical about avoidants (see? I can exaggerage also! 😂) and project a lot of stuff of their own, (yep, non-empathy is a thing amongst all other types as well! Do those perspectives seem empathetic? Can we say projection?!?) and distort avoidant attachment into a cluster b. Please. This is why it's really really REALIY important to focus on one's own psychology, instead of trying to explain everyone else. I'm sure some f these authors don't realize how they look from the outside, all those foneger pointing and how many are pointing back? We are all human and trying to heal so best to just try to be humble and realize we are all in the same boat as humans on a toxic planet. Seriously, none of us are better or more pure than the others.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2019 18:23:16 GMT
Okay I am querious about the authers of the articles you are talkning about. Would you mind share some names ? Diane Poole Heller have once told, that she used to have some desorganised attatchmentstyle / trauma and some avoidant attatchmentstyle. Oh, that makes perfect sense, I thought she was just super intelligent and empathetic. Her perspectives are so accurate, in terms of what avoidants go through and how we struggle. So compassionate- and safe. Her work has been extremely healing to me because she speaks right to my heart. I have read other analysis or perspectives from non- DA and thought "Huh? That's not what I think/feel/believe/do at all?! Maybe I'm not avoidant? What am I?" What a person looks like on the outside can be very very different from what they look like on the inside, and you would think outsiders would be very cognizant of that. (AP's acting angry are actually trying to GET love, not push it away... but they push it away by acting super angry. If it were up to me to interpret it, as an outsider, I'd say "That person is MEAN ! " But that's not how this works, is it? Something else is going on inside and can be viewed with compassion. Unless we are talking about an avoidant, haha!) When talking about avoidants, some authors tend to apply their own understanding or ignorance as the case may be, to the avoidant and basically say "This is what it looks and feels like to me so this is what it is." DPH has a different take and it's because she knows the difference between what it looks like from the outside and what it feels like from the inside. Im glad she was born! ❤️😁 |
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Post by anne12 on May 14, 2019 19:05:33 GMT
Well Diane could also have had some AP in her, because she has decribed, that an ex once complaind about that she rejected his compliments and the things he had to offer. The ap can have problems recieving love when love becomes availible.
I think she is very skilled, she has also worked with some of the top Experts and she also have worked with PeterLevine for many years so she knows about SE and has other educations also.
I also like Stan Tatkin and some european Experts i know about.
Again most people do not only have one attatchment style. IT is on a spectrum.
(And not All with some AP attatchmentstyles have angry protest behavior. Outbursts)
Most people also have some kind of trauma without even Knowing IT themselves.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2019 19:17:57 GMT
Well she could also have some AP in her because she has decribed that an ex once complaind about that she rejected his compliments and the things her had to offer. The ap can have problems recieving love when love becomes availible. I think she is very skilled, she has also worked with Peter Levine for many years soshe knows about SE and has other educations also. I also like Stan Tatkin and some european Experts. Again most people do not only have one attatchment style. IT is on a spectrum. (And not All with some AP attatchmentstyles have angry protest behavior. Most people also have some kind of trauma. Yes , I have read some Tatkin also. Absolutely everyone is on a spectrum but I was addressing the black/white stuff from authors like Kinnison, Lue, etc. And, not all AP have angry behaviors but I used that as an example... just like not every avoidant does the same things. It really just gets so exhausting to me, to analyze analyze analyze. What is most important first and foremost is for people to address themselves before figuring out everyone else. Information about other people is helpful of course, but it all can become just silly when we have to explain this that and the other about everyone else. That's just my opinion. It is enough work for anyone to understand themselves and change themselves into a healthier and happier person without worrying so much about everyone else. I say, once you aren't wrapped around the axle with your own dysfunction, you can go have a peek at someone else's hahaha! My only point is that DPH can clearly empathize with avoidant perspectives even if she has others in her makeup. That is not true of many many authors out there  |
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Post by goldilocks on May 14, 2019 20:34:02 GMT
It's not a question of who has or had feelings really, but WHY? Too soon, probably lots of fantasy thinking and assumptions and expectations involved, people are not even close to knowing each other in a whirlwind romance like this. It's great you're in therapy and exploring attachment issues in yourself, you sound committed to growth and understanding yourself and that is the first step. Not everyone comes to that place of readiness so it's something to be truly thankful for! The answers will come in time, but it may be best to take a step back and see this relationship as a symptom of insecure attachment in yourself, rather than a viable thing that you can try to salvage. Take your eyes off of him because he's been super flaky, and isn't on the same path of self awareness apparently. It's just a waste of time to think about him, considering he flipped 180 degrees a couple of times already. I'm a recovering DA, incidentally, and I'm not seeing DA behavior in him. FA does more of the flip flop but that doesn't matter- he isn't you, and you're AP, and that's the only thing you can do anything about at all. I agree, this sounds FA with the hot/cold and intensity. DA being in a relationship in weeks? That is not likely. Therapy is however awesome. And letting go of any hopes of getting back with him is best no matter what the outcome. Healing makes you better connected to yourself, much more self loving and thus much happier even on your own. You meet your own needs and this sets a higher standard for a partner; so you require better people or the better side of people. You also bring more to the table as your needs do not dominate the relationship. He may have felt a lot but cannot stay in alignment with his feelings if so, you may have felt a lot but you hardly know him. Getting to know each other and actually negotiating a relationship takes months not weeks. Letting go of what was mostly a fantasy would be liberating. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2019 21:40:50 GMT
Yes, goldilocks makes a good point- letting go is LIBERATING. It's not a loss of something good, it's a loss of something pretty dysfunctional. I appreciate the sense of connection and I won't knock it, but to emphasize connection with someone who is absolutely absent and who doesn't want a relationship the same way you do is missing the forest for the trees. As you get healthier you will see that connection can happen with lots of people. Many of us click. It's not as rare as you think. And, it's pretty cool to foster connections that aren't bathed in insecurity and impossible odds. (I'm talking about connection but needing to be no contact... connection doesn't have to be this hard, this painful, this gut wrenching). My DA friend that I have mentioned here is going through letting go of an unavailable guy. She has always been the DA, always in a bubble. She fell for a guy who is completely unavailable. He's deployed, for one. He's emotionally unavailable and really only wants sex and attention when he is on leave, and someone to talk to while deployed. She found herself waiting by the phone and wondering how to make it all work. She had fantasies about a real relationship. When she came to me with all this I said "Friend, you've flipped! You've gone AP! ". She was shocked but it opened her eyes immediately. Now, she is cutting that out. Believe it or not, we haven't had one single conversation analyzing him. NOT ONE. She is focused on her own errors. Her own issues. Her own illusions that trapped her. Her own need to nurture herself further and find out why she got stuck. We haven't spent one minute trying to interpret him. Because her issue is, she fell for someone and created a relationship with him, even though all signs pointed to CASUAL, FLEETING, UNSTABLE, UNAVAILABLE. That's her problem, if she were in touch with real time in reality, instead of being triggered by abandonment, it wouldn't have happened so her solution is in healing her abandonment and getting present with HERSELF. So, while it's a process, and different for a typical avoidant vs a typical anxious, that's where her focus is. Not on reconciliation, not on making a silk purse out of a sow's ear (to quote our dear Natalie Lue 😂), not on trying to get him to change his ways and presto change-o inter her perfect partner that walks the long road with her. She'll be fine. We have a great summer planned together! We can even laugh at ourselves, our own mistakes. I know AP struggle with different issues around shame and low self esteem but maybe realizing that even avoidants can go through this crap can help lend a different perspective. |
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Post by goldilocks on May 14, 2019 21:44:12 GMT
I have read other analysis or perspectives from non- DA and thought "Huh? That's not what I think/feel/believe/do at all?! Maybe I'm not avoidant? What am I?" What a person looks like on the outside can be very very different from what they look like on the inside, and you would think outsiders would be very cognizant of that. (AP's acting angry are actually trying to GET love, not push it away... but they push it away by acting super angry. If it were up to me to interpret it, as an outsider, I'd say "That person is MEAN ! " But that's not how this works, is it? Something else is going on inside and can be viewed with compassion. Unless we are talking about an avoidant, haha!) When talking about avoidants, some authors tend to apply their own understanding or ignorance as the case may be, to the avoidant and basically say "This is what it looks and feels like to me so this is what it is." DPH has a different take and it's because she knows the difference between what it looks like from the outside and what it feels like from the inside. Im glad she was born! ❤️😁 Most people who seek therapy for attachment are AP, so most therapists cater to AP. Most people who buy books about attachment are AP, so most succesful authors cater to AP. Commercially, it makes sense to stick with that perspective, so AP therapists and authors are more likely to be succesful. They speak the language of the most lucrative audience. Yet, the one sidedness makes it hard to digest for those with other perspectives. Then "avoidants don't get therapy or buy books at all" and authors fail to learn about the inner world of DA and FA. This creates a situation where the author or therapist is unable to help avoidant clients. Relationship is rooted in intersubjectivity; a shared understanding of the insides. Neither a therapeutic nor a romantic relationship can take place without it. |
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2019 22:02:30 GMT
I have read other analysis or perspectives from non- DA and thought "Huh? That's not what I think/feel/believe/do at all?! Maybe I'm not avoidant? What am I?" What a person looks like on the outside can be very very different from what they look like on the inside, and you would think outsiders would be very cognizant of that. (AP's acting angry are actually trying to GET love, not push it away... but they push it away by acting super angry. If it were up to me to interpret it, as an outsider, I'd say "That person is MEAN ! " But that's not how this works, is it? Something else is going on inside and can be viewed with compassion. Unless we are talking about an avoidant, haha!) When talking about avoidants, some authors tend to apply their own understanding or ignorance as the case may be, to the avoidant and basically say "This is what it looks and feels like to me so this is what it is." DPH has a different take and it's because she knows the difference between what it looks like from the outside and what it feels like from the inside. Im glad she was born! ❤️😁 Most people who seek therapy for attachment are AP, so most therapists cater to AP. Most people who buy books about attachment are AP, so most succesful authors cater to AP. Commercially, it makes sense to stick with that perspective, so AP therapists and authors are more likely to be succesful. They speak the language of the most lucrative audience. Yet, the one sidedness makes it hard to digest for those with other perspectives. Then "avoidants don't get therapy or buy books at all" and authors fail to learn about the inner world of DA and FA. This creates a situation where the author or therapist is unable to help avoidant clients. Relationship is rooted in intersubjectivity; a shared understanding of the insides. Neither a therapeutic nor a romantic relationship can take place without it. Yes, I've thought the same for years. DA's kind of go it alone (go figure) but I think there is a trend toward deeper insight and more skillful work with avoidants- DPH and associates are doing great work. Come to think of it, anti-avoidant authors and therapists just dish up more of the same neglect and even abuse to avoidants that the avoidant has experienced life long, it's pretty sad. But, some of us find little miracles and I believe where there is a will there is a way, so we will be ok- maybe the tide will turn. The whole theory has to evolve and is evolving, with the addition of neuroscience and attention to trauma. |
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 14, 2019 22:27:07 GMT
This whole experience is eye opening! Thank you for your replies! I have so much to say but I can't right now, I will be back tomorrow though.
I do agree that my ex seems to be more of a FA, as he is way too open and sensitive and empathetic to be a DA, thanks for leading me there.
What's important though, is that I'm learning so much about my AP and how I'm so pre- occupied with relationships and analyzing everything to bits etc. Just the realization of me doing that was liberating, as if I thought everyone does that.
Again, I'll be back with more, but just so you know I am very happy tonight! I'm just letting thoughts be and it's amazing! I've accepted (well at least for now) that my ex just doesn't want me and every time my mind wanders in "what ifs", I immediately think "he is not there, he doesn't want to be with you" and oddly enough, it's liberating!
Thank youuu!!
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2019 23:01:53 GMT
mamut, that's great! And it's great that you're aware of the problem. So many come here to perpetuate their preoccupation but you do NOT have to do that. You can liberate yourself, I'm not saying it's easy but you already see that clinging sucks. Do everything you can to get off the AP bus. It's like, you want to go home but the driver of the AP Bus has no map and is barreling through the desert, a desolate wasteland, to a MIRAGE. That's what insecure thinking habits do- take you the wrong way and quickly and you end up thirsty, burnt, and alone. With a crazy bus driver haha! Have a great evening. 
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Post by mamut on May 15, 2019 11:41:03 GMT
goldilocks , @sherry, he never ever ever called it a relationship, he just made it exclusive, which was a first for me, but I did want exclusivity so I was ok, and that's what basically describes a relationship for be but anyway. I love therapy, I have gone a long way ever since I started and I'm proud. I'm even prouder to see that I can't identify with some of the traits of an AP anymore and others are getting less intense. I still have a long way to go, but oh boy, I'm in for the ride! As for my ex, I still miss him dearly. I miss hanging out with him, I miss his company. I'm starting to understand that there wasn't a huge erotic bond to begin with, mostly on his part,but there definitely was a connection, and I can actually see us becoming friends again, but I can't afford to think about that right now, because I get my hopes up even by that! Good news is that I'm not anxious about remaining friends as I'd used to be. I'm more confident and dare to say secure that what ever will be will be. Reading and working on my AP issues drove me into the black and white mode, I push away my need to heal from the break up and focus on personal growth. It's one or the other in my head, but after a lot of work with my therapist I'm starting to identify when I'm doing that and am able to stop it. So I still need to mourn what I thought I had as it's been barely a week since the BU. I was surpressing it and that's not good. I need to both mourn the loss and work on myself. I still have thoughts of reconciliation and I try to keep telling myself that it's not going to happen but I'm not always successful today. It's like I'm grasping for a teeny tiny hope just to keep the warm fuzzy feeling of being in love last a tad longer. I can't say I'll never go back to him. I can't say that yet, hopefully I will soon, but I can't pressure myself, it will take time. I never had a problem being single by the way. I was actually in the same mindset for two years a couple of years ago. I wanted to remain single for the rest of my life, difference is, I knew it was probably a phase. That said, I am not family oriented. I'm in my late 30s, never wanted to get married nor have children and I don't get into relationships just to be in one. I am going to have to take your word for it when you say we can make connections with more people, easier than I thought, because as you see, I've been through things, I've met tons of people. I'm not saying that I won't find anyone else, on the contrary, my experience shows that the next one will be even better, but I don't think it'll come soon. I didn't fall for him because we both like pineapple on pizza, but because I saw things in him, the way his mind works etc. I've fallen for guys for all the wrong reasons and I've gotten better at it, apparently not perfect, but I know you guys get what I mean 😂 I even saw some red flags early on, next step in my journey is to learn to trust my gut more and cut it off early, or at least have the guts to talk about my worries when I actually have them, and not "wait for the right moment". This is turning into a bit of a rant, but thanks for getting this far! I'll be back *Terminator voice*
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Post by mamut on May 15, 2019 11:49:18 GMT
Forgot to add. I am also terrified of being in a relationship because I lose myself as an AP* and that's why I thought this could actually be great for me too, to take things slow without any commitment. We talked about that. I see now that that might have actually worked against me lol. I am seeing more of my AP traits that can got in the way and could get in the way with my future relationships and I'm happy I am.
*I even started losing myself in this one but I caught on to it quick and was going to work on it, but he beat me to it.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 12:21:22 GMT
goldilocks , @sherry, he never ever ever called it a relationship, he just made it exclusive, which was a first for me, but I did want exclusivity so I was ok, and that's what basically describes a relationship for be but anyway. I love therapy, I have gone a long way ever since I started and I'm proud. I'm even prouder to see that I can't identify with some of the traits of an AP anymore and others are getting less intense. I still have a long way to go, but oh boy, I'm in for the ride! As for my ex, I still miss him dearly. I miss hanging out with him, I miss his company. I'm starting to understand that there wasn't a huge erotic bond to begin with, mostly on his part,but there definitely was a connection, and I can actually see us becoming friends again, but I can't afford to think about that right now, because I get my hopes up even by that! Good news is that I'm not anxious about remaining friends as I'd used to be. I'm more confident and dare to say secure that what ever will be will be. Reading and working on my AP issues drove me into the black and white mode, I push away my need to heal from the break up and focus on personal growth. It's one or the other in my head, but after a lot of work with my therapist I'm starting to identify when I'm doing that and am able to stop it. So I still need to mourn what I thought I had as it's been barely a week since the BU. I was surpressing it and that's not good. I need to both mourn the loss and work on myself. I still have thoughts of reconciliation and I try to keep telling myself that it's not going to happen but I'm not always successful today. It's like I'm grasping for a teeny tiny hope just to keep the warm fuzzy feeling of being in love last a tad longer. I can't say I'll never go back to him. I can't say that yet, hopefully I will soon, but I can't pressure myself, it will take time. I never had a problem being single by the way. I was actually in the same mindset for two years a couple of years ago. I wanted to remain single for the rest of my life, difference is, I knew it was probably a phase. That said, I am not family oriented. I'm in my late 30s, never wanted to get married nor have children and I don't get into relationships just to be in one. I am going to have to take your word for it when you say we can make connections with more people, easier than I thought, because as you see, I've been through things, I've met tons of people. I'm not saying that I won't find anyone else, on the contrary, my experience shows that the next one will be even better, but I don't think it'll come soon. I didn't fall for him because we both like pineapple on pizza, but because I saw things in him, the way his mind works etc. I've fallen for guys for all the wrong reasons and I've gotten better at it, apparently not perfect, but I know you guys get what I mean 😂 I even saw some red flags early on, next step in my journey is to learn to trust my gut more and cut it off early, or at least have the guts to talk about my worries when I actually have them, and not "wait for the right moment". This is turning into a bit of a rant, but thanks for getting this far! I'll be back *Terminator voice* This process of letting go is definitely not without grief, and I think it's very important to grieve as it comes. And, it's also good to turn your mind to the big picture of your reason for exploring the issues that have you in unhealthy patterns, and what you want to gain from undertaking the work. You have to have a purpose for your self, an idea of where you want to go, and in that you can still be with where you are now! It's about balance, and perspective, and not becoming stuck in a loop of a dysfunctional narrative. Yes, you miss him, the breakup is fresh. That is real, and so is the goal of growth and personal development. Those two things are not mutually exclusive and in fact, there is an organic relationship between them. Through your grief you will actually gain insight. So it's ok to just be present with it and remember to train your mind to your growth as well, it's just a process. |
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