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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 16:59:06 GMT
@sherry ,once again, you're spot on. I actually realised that I was indeed preoccupying my mind by trying to analyse him. That's why the last couple of days, every time my mind wandered there I told myself "he doesn't want to be here" and it helped. That slowly turned into "I don't want to be there" and that's even more helpful. Indeed I am still in the preoccupied mindset when I'm doing that and one thing I can say for sure, IM SICK AND TIRED OF IT. I even told that to my therapist and cried every time I did. I can't take it anymore, and I'm determined to overcome it. Fortunately I do have support, great friends, an amazing therapist and now, you guys. I agree, time will tell, I just need to stop searching for the answer to if he's a good guy or not NOW. It'll come up eventually. He's not part of my life now, although he does still affect it and occupy my mind. I don't want to pressure me to forget him, it's still a break up, it still needs time, but what matters is the way I will choose to forget him. I indeed need to start breaking the pattern of my preoccupied mind while getting over him. I need to just let go of him, cut all hope. I mean I was really thinking of ending it too, it's not that it was fulfilling. That's something, even if I didn't go through with it when I should've. Can't figure out why I'm angry, well most of all why do I feel guilty that I'm angry. I've mentioned Natalie Lue, the author of Baggage Reclaim, and I think she is incredibly wise in some things and ignorant in others (concerning the inner workings of avoidants). A lot of what she reveals is useful for any insecurely attached person, anxious or avoidant! Here is a great article to perhaps help you understand why you are angry. I hope it helps! www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/understanding-what-makes-you-angry-why-in-relationships-and-post-breakup-part-one/ |
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 16, 2019 17:30:58 GMT
Very good article!
I do know her, have stumbled upon her during previous break ups and don't really really like her because she was indeed treating the guy with too much hate for me. She did help with the sociopath though 😂
This article is great though, I could really relate to this one part, well more but I don't wanna flood this post, I think this hits the spot for me now:
""We feel ‘robbed’.
This is where it’s important to get real with yourself because often the anger that is held onto, where you feel you’ve been cheated and robbed, is trying to hold onto the illusion of what you thought would happen based on illusions and ignoring of red flags. Being real will help you to work through the anger, but also to see you’ve made a lucky escape.""
I don't exactly feel cheated or robbed per say, but I do think the anger is clinging to the illusion and continuing my preoccupied pattern.
I guess I'll stick to the "I don't want to be there" to stop my hopeful thoughts for starters.
It's so crazy in my head right now, just to get a picture, while reading the article and writing this post, my mind went to the hopeful thoughts of reconciliation, probably in every sentence. Every. Single. Sentence.
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Post by anne12 on May 16, 2019 17:46:58 GMT
When you understand the purpose of anger, and when you can get it transformed then anger is "just" lifeenergy, and you use IT to say No to what you do not want and to say yes and reach out for what you do want
When you or a partner ends a relationship you can Get angry because you thought you were going to Be with This person and start a relationship.
Or you ex dirent treat you right. ]You can try to look at the watertank exercise in the secure discussion forum
(Do the Short version) and then try to push one of your arms/hands out in front of you and say No. Thats your NO
Then you take your arm and hand out in front of you like if you are reaching out for something/like you are recievieving a gift. And then you pull your arm back in. Thats your YES.
Be aware how IT feels in your Body and notise your breath.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 17:59:37 GMT
Very good article! I do know her, have stumbled upon her during previous break ups and don't really really like her because she was indeed treating the guy with too much hate for me. She did help with the sociopath though 😂 This article is great though, I could really relate to this one part, well more but I don't wanna flood this post, I think this hits the spot for me now: ""We feel ‘robbed’. This is where it’s important to get real with yourself because often the anger that is held onto, where you feel you’ve been cheated and robbed, is trying to hold onto the illusion of what you thought would happen based on illusions and ignoring of red flags. Being real will help you to work through the anger, but also to see you’ve made a lucky escape."" I don't exactly feel cheated or robbed per say, but I do think the anger is clinging to the illusion and continuing my preoccupied pattern. I guess I'll stick to the "I don't want to be there" to stop my hopeful thoughts for starters. It's so crazy in my head right now, just to get a picture, while reading the article and writing this post, my mind went to the hopeful thoughts of reconciliation, probably in every sentence. Every. Single. Sentence. Haha, you're right, she does talk about unavailable men like they are sociopaths!!! Maybe some day she will grow out of that- she's been at this a long time and still lacks real understanding and empathy for the other side but what she does get right, she gets right. Don't beat yourself up about the clinging and obsession with the object of your attachment, just be aware of it. Because he is unavailable, you are obsessed. You have to win his love, you have to secure your security from him, because that's how you got wired in infancy. It's an outcome of insecure attachment, it's the hook that has kept you hooked. As you learn more, you will learn about the ambivalence in you that rejects true intimacy and connection! It seems like you have a happily ever after fantasy but in reality, you're not available for that. If you were, you would be putting your attention on someone who is with you and available. You'd have healthier habits, fewer blind spots, and wouldn't need to find your water in a puddle- you'd be quenching yourself with clean, refreshing water. There is a lot of discovering and healing and loving yourself first and foremost to do. Chances are, you will come to a place of compassion for him without craving him. He's busted up too. You can't save him, he can't save you, every human has the task of learning and loving themselves before they can learn and love someone else. That's not to say you can't grow with a partner- but you would be better off doing some foundational work and then perhaps pairing with a partner on the same path. Don't even entertain the fantasy of educating him about himself and daydreaming that you can just do this together.... life isn't a movie 😬😁 Really, the most realistic things are sometimes the most absolutely simple things. If you've got to have a fantasy to imagine an outcome that means, it's a fantasy and you're not living in reality. The truth is, you're burnt out with all this AP stuff and you've got an ex that doesn't want what you want, you're in therapy and here to figure out how to fix all this, and thoughts of him are going back into the pit. It takes time to fully crawl out of it but for your own sake, work to take steps away from it not back to it. Gift yourself 3-6 months or so to let him go like he is in the past. Work hard on solving your AP problem during that time. Then see if he is around, and if you give a rat's ass that's he's around haha. Just push the pause button on all that and see if you're even interested one little bit once you've made some strides in your own process. Maybe you will have raised the bar a lot and be attracted to more attractive healthy partners. Don't trust the AP driven attachment. Its got you pining for someone who doesn't want a relationship. |
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 16, 2019 18:42:55 GMT
anne12 Now that is an excellent use of anger! I was struggling to find one, that makes total sense!! Thanks!! I will definitely try the exercise! Still haven't read everything you sent me but I went through most of it like I was stranded in a dessert and just hit an oasis! @sherry yeah it's that damn pattern. I'm used to fighting for attention, love and acceptance from my mother mostly, but apparently from my father too (passed away when I was in my early 20s btw, that might add to the whole picture) I was left wondering why he's away when I was younger, I mean I knew, but I probably still felt rejected. It's like now that my ex rejected me, I still feel that I want him because I did know that my parents still loved me and were always there, based on observation through time of course. So that's how I translate love. A constant fight to keep them close. I'm glad that I just recently set boundaries with my mother. That really helped me in genral and I can see how it will help me with this obstacle. OF COURSE I entertained the idea of "healing together", what am I an amateur AP?? Puh-lease!! *Hair flip* 😂😂😂 Fortunately, I threw it out the window quite fast. I know he's damaged but I also know from personal experience, that you can't help someone that doesn't want to be helped. Also, I tried to stop my "savior's" behavior a couple relationships ago, I'm nobody's therapist. Furthermore, it's not my place right now. If he wanted a relationship and he didn't end it maybe, but that's one too many "ifs" all ready. I was hoping it'll take less time for me to let go of him tbh. We do share common friends and I'm already missing out on a fun night out because of him. I will keep in doing it for as long as it takes, it's just not fair. My friends are on my side, I mean they were my friends first and they are amazing, it's just the nature of our work that they have to be with him. Not that I asked them not to, they are just mad at him also 😂 I'm sure I won't care after I let go, I agree on that! I usually let go of exes quite fast compared to some of my friends, probably because I obsess about the whole thing though so I cut the time in half. Maybe i put too much anger in the mix though m this time I want to find a better way, that will benefit my journey overcoming this too, if it takes longer, so be it. And again, if there was really a connection, if he is really just as damaged as I am, then maybe a friendship could evolve. Oh yeah, I did get an apology, doesn't really change much and it was over text but at least he acknowledged that he was irresponsible with my feelings and is very sorry. I'm mentioning this because it was somewhere in that baggage reclaim article, that you might be angry because they didn't apologise.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 19:11:10 GMT
mamut it's fun to see you maintaining your sense of humor! 😂 My DA girlfriends and I sometimes nearly fall over having a good laugh at ourselves and our sideways thinking or behavior. It's ok to laugh at yourself, especially knowing you aren't alone in it. It's been incredible to work through stuff with my friends, it takes some of the weight out of it, adds some humor and hope. And compassion! My friends don't laugh with me because they think I'm an idiot, they laugh because they get me and they can see from the outside, I'll be fine. At times when you can't trust the process, you can let someone else trust for you and just hang with you till you feel better. As an aside, I've got a close anxious friend that I share my processes with also, and even though we have very different ways of being insecure, there are common points that we can empathize with each other on. Insecure is insecure! Afraid is afraid. Angry is angry. Sad is sad. I absolutely don't get why she thinks she isn't worthy, why she believes someone wouldn't want her. She hides her true self as much as any avoidant I know (including me before I learned how to show myself), I can relate to that, and when I pointed it out she fell out of her chair, she didn't see it. But we are very similar that way! totally get that she is afraid, I can empathize with her feelings of just not being able to get it right, or of messing it up. We just mess things up differently haha!! So when sharing with others around here try not to draw to much separation between types. I haven't seen you do that but I think it happens. We all have pain (and hopefully hope) in common.
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 16, 2019 19:28:10 GMT
@sherry Well thank dog for humor! I don't want to think where we'd be without it!
I too have what I think is a secure friend and she's got my back. She too can't understand why I don't feel that good about myself, and is there to constantly remind me that I rock! I love her! I don't think she was ever this insecure, but she is very understanding and super smart. I just introduced her to the whole concept, I can't wait to meet up close to talk about it.
Loved the way you worded this: "At times when you can't trust the process, you can let someone else trust for you and just hang with you till you feel better." She's got my back just like this and I'm grateful!
I am actively trying not to keep the boundaries strict between the types,I'm glad it shows, as I did catch up quickly on the fact that they're blurry. I too have seen avoidant tendencies in me and as you pointed out, emotions are emotions, the source might be different, but the results are the same.
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 16, 2019 19:42:25 GMT
I hate Facebook. Even when you unfollow someone it finds a way to just show you tagged pictures of them.
I'm just sitting here with my obsession looking at it straight in the eye, repeating that this is my attachment manifesting. Trying to comfort the kid that's waiting for it's parents to return by telling it, it will be fine without them, it's still Worthy and capable.
That was surprisingly thought stopping and refreshing.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 20:11:10 GMT
I hate Facebook. Even when you unfollow someone it finds a way to just show you tagged pictures of them. I'm just sitting here with my obsession looking at it straight in the eye, repeating that this is my attachment manifesting. Trying to comfort the kid that's waiting for it's parents to return by telling it, it will be fine without them, it's still Worthy and capable. That was surprisingly thought stopping and refreshing. I think that's a great thing to do- maybe write out some post it notes that contain key arguments against your AP narrative. Something like "He's not my mom. He's not my dad. " I'm obsessed with him because my attachment system got hijacked." "Abandonment issues impact my attachment. I won't abandon myself!" "I chose a totally unavailable guy out unconscious habits. I want to be conscious!" Or whatever that looks like for you- I don't know what would be most helpful for an anxious person. Also- facebook has got to be the most toxic thing for dysfunctional people. Seriously. However, do realize that you have an option to block him so he disappears from your facebook. I get that would be like killing all your AP hopes and dreams but it's only social media. You could tell yourself he still exists in the real world (where he doesn't want a relationship either) and he's just blocked so you can take an active stance against obsessing and being IV fed AP crack cocaine. Remember. Where you put your attention is within your control in many ways. The automatic obsession is enough to deal with- eliminate all the other avenues it can get to you because it's really enough for it to be coming from your unconscious mind- you damn sure don't need it coming from facebook too. That's OPTIONAL. |
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 16, 2019 20:27:32 GMT
Great ideas. I'm reading up on the water tank exercise too now.
I'm not against blocking him in general, I didn't do it because right now I don't want to trigger a reaction from him. Thing is, due to the nature of our work, in order for his pics to not be randomly popping up, I'd have to unfollow way too many people. I think I can still handle it, but if I get worse, I'm definitely blocking him.
I can't get myself to just get up and do something else. Anything. And that's part of the attachment. Like I'm holding on to hope by not doing anything. As if I don't move, figure of speech, time will stand still and I can remain in denial.
It not only helps me to write these down, I'm also hoping it'll help other APs or partners of them to understand what we are going through. And of course a majority of us like to talk a lot, apparently 😂
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 16, 2019 20:32:23 GMT
We have done a similar exercise with my therapist with the child, who is me obviously. That one does work well with me. Going back to take care of me as a child, at moments where I couldn't back then and no one was there to comfort me. No one was there to tell me I'm Worthy and what's happening is not my fault and is out of my control. Can't imagine anyone else better than our own selves comforting us, especially now that we know what to aim for.
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 16, 2019 20:45:52 GMT
Ok this one hit the spot:
I'm obsessed with you because the people who introduced me to love were hot and cold. They took care of me but they didn't give me exactly what I needed and they didn't love me for who I was. They took care of me and loved me on their own terms, so that's why I want you back, because I'm used to them sticking around despite the fact that it wasn't fulfilling and wholesome for me. I was also desperate for their approval, which is what I'm looking for in you now.
I don't know what true love looks like so I'm seeking what I think it looks like, what I've been taught it looks like.
To top that, I've been guilted all my life to appreciate the love that my mother gave me, because she practically gave up her life for us. That's a huge burden to bear for a child. Carried it all my life. It's time to end this.
I am worthy of true love and a true connection. I am worthy of someone who wants to be with me, who's affectionate and does not bolt when we get closer.
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Post by tnr9 on May 16, 2019 20:46:53 GMT
tnr9 I find your diagnosis very interesting and assume that it's more of a medical condition because lots of people have low serotonin levels when depressed? I'm intrigued. I've been through depression, anxiety, OCD tendencies my whole life. Im sure I have low serotonin levels but I don't know if it's a medical condition or circumstantial. How did you discover it? I'm asking all these because I have an appointment with my therapist today and I want to gather as many questions as I can to figure out how I cultivated an AP attachment. I'm 100% sure my mother never neglected me, but she was and is overprotective. She also is definitely an AP. So maybe that's my answer, I just picked up on her behavior growing up. She had a horrible relationship with my father, neglected as a child and all that. Can't really figure out what my dad might be. Again, I'm sure my "discovery" of attachment styles will not make any difference to my therapist because we're already working on these issues without a label, but for me it acted like a wake up call during a period of already wanting to get rid of it. I'm also hoping she is familiar with it, so I can at least be able to talk about it in my new founded terms. How much do experiences as an adult affect an attachment style? Also, I'm extremely secure in friendships. Don't think I ever was anxious in those. It's as if all my anxiety comes out 99% in relationships. I am feeling better, slowly realizing that as much as I miss him, and as much as we have so many things in common that could've created a great relationship, we'd be horrible together. It would be unfufillling for me and he'd be constantly in doubt and pressured for what would seem to me, no reason whatsoever. He is aware of his inability to connect, so that's something going for him, but I doubt he'd do anything about it and if he ever does, I wouldn't be the trigger. I haven't let go completely yet. I still think this is not the end of it, yet every time i visit that hope my mind says "nope". I take that as a good sign. I've noticed the pattern that avoidants have in making friends of their partners. It's as if for them it's an upgrade. Or that's just my mind romanticizing it. The hope I mentioned. Ugh. I had a very astute doctor who commented that 3 years in a row I had come to my annual health check crying. I was very resistant to going on medication as I honestly thought it proved that there was something very wrong with me (my dad was a psychiatrist so there is a lot odor shame left over from being told how crazy/maladjusted I was as a child. He used to tell me I was this close to being “normal” and he would hold his hands about a foot apart). My doctor said...does being on blood pressure medication or thyroid medication mean the person has something wrong with them? Honestly, it has been like night and day....and all areas of my life have improved as a result. The thing is....patterns of behavior/reactions do not change overnight..so I still have my moments....but I also take things less seriously, have better boundaries/autonomy..and I love myself for who I am. So yes...I do think it is worth exploring if you think the medication may help. |
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 16, 2019 21:02:51 GMT
tnr9 Thank you for sharing! I will definitely bring in up to my therapist for starters! I'm so sorry you grew up being told that. I feel you. You are worthy, friendly reminder!
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 1:50:55 GMT
Ok this one hit the spot: I'm obsessed with you because the people who introduced me to love were hot and cold. They took care of me but they didn't give me exactly what I needed and they didn't love me for who I was. They took care of me and loved me on their own terms, so that's why I want you back, because I'm used to them sticking around despite the fact that it wasn't fulfilling and wholesome for me. I was also desperate for their approval, which is what I'm looking for in you now. I don't know what true love looks like so I'm seeking what I think it looks like, what I've been taught it looks like. To top that, I've been guilted all my life to appreciate the love that my mother gave me, because she practically gave up her life for us. That's a huge burden to bear for a child. Carried it all my life. It's time to end this. I am worthy of true love and a true connection. I am worthy of someone who wants to be with me, who's affectionate and does not bolt when we get closer.YES to all of the above!!!! when i started dating again after my break up, I had a few guiding questions to center me and help me find a healthier relationship. I swung highly avoidant, but I knew it'll balance out with my AP tendencies, so it was a good middle ground. 1. My number one rule is no hot and cold. if it goes cold, i'm OUT OF THERE. I understand things can go from hot to warm over time gradually, but when it's hot to cold, it's over for me. I give it minimally 90 days to judge someone's interest and consistency. No sex during that time for as long as possible. In fact, if after 90 days it did not grow (much less die down), I'm not interested in continuing the relationship. The real deal starts after 90 days. Think of 90 days as probation for keeping someone around. After 90 days, you start having quarterly performance appraisals. I had a promotions discussion with my company the other day and they had the most apt description for hiring someone permanently: sustained performance at current level and a demonstrated capacity/potential for the next level. Excellent principle. 2. Am I able to be completely me without feeling judged/misunderstood? Am I appreciated for all the things that I was told made it difficult to love? I'm used to people sticking around because that's by default, not by choice. I was often told that I have to smile more, be more understanding, be less harsh etc etc, and that I need to change my temper otherwise I won't have relationships. I don't have a temper. I only get really clear and cutting in my speech when pushed too far, but I was often made to feel bad about me standing up for myself. like you, I was guilted to appreciate people's love and affection, and I spent my entire life trying to accommodate her needs by adjusting my behavior and performance as a daughter. Love for me was often on their terms and when it was convenient for them, rather than freely appreciating the things I value most about myself (which they seemed to dislike or want to tone down). 3. I also place my needs first and foremost - are my needs met naturally simply by you being you? how much work do I have to put in to adjusting and negotiating for us to have a natural, organic and trusting rship? In my previous relationship, I had to communicate and negotiate over holding hands in public, when I'm somebody who appreciates and feels safe with some PDA. I thought it was normal to communicate and compromise, but this gap was so big that it was hell. Now, if after max 3 interactions I don't see my needs getting met naturally and organically, meaning he is just who he is without me asking for stuff, I'm out. The "problem" was two-fold: knowing what my needs were and then understanding if they were getting met or not. I realized that I don't know when they're met, but I know when they're not met. I do know intimately the feeling of slightly being off center when the needs are not met or pseudo-met or the rush of hormones and elation when the needs are met in a passionate but insecure fashion. However, I was not familiar with the feeling of contentment and security that runs deep and quietly, which comes from needs being met naturally; this is something new that I am discovering with my current partner. I did know that if I met someone who made me feel the same way as I did previous partners, it's probably someone I should avoid pursuing. Use those AP instincts productively - they're all signs of who you should avoid! "I am worthy of someone who wants to be with me, who's affectionate and does not bolt when we get closer." >>>> this statement is so important in my healing process: when I made this statement, I completely and utterly believed this, and I was ready to cut off anybody, no matter how important they are to me or how much I love them. When you truly believe in this, you will have zero patience for anyone who shows otherwise. @sherry I'm so glad you see commonalities between the insecures. I also think the same way - perhaps there're differences in manifestations and formation, but insecurity IS insecurity. Fear IS fear. Abandonment IS abandonment. Rejection IS rejection. I'm not trying to minimize individual experiences and the differences in trauma, but it's all the same in the end. The differences don't matter anymore when what you want to do is to move from zero to secure. I stopped operating on attachment theory and categories because all that nitpicking of how "we're different from each other" continues to draw boundaries and reinforce a narrative that "I am AP" and "AP should avoid DA and DA should avoid AP". I wanted my narrative to be "I want to be secure and happy, how do I go about doing that? Is what I'm doing serving my goals?" At the end of the day, we all just want to be healed and learn how to approach different people in healthy ways that serve everyone well. I focused on what is "true connection" and how I self-sabotage, as well as learn how to recognise ways that other people do that - APs and DAs and basically every shade of insecurity. Only then could I learn to identify what secure looks like (everything insecures are not + some others) and practice those behaviors MYSELF. |
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