mamut
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Post by mamut on May 17, 2019 16:50:21 GMT
@sherry I am so sorry, I wanted to actually ask for permission, like if you would like to answer that because while I was writing it I did see that it was way too personal as is. I couldn't get online to correct myself sooner. I apologise for that question and I also thank you for not answering, because that was probably why I was asking and I am so sorry for that too. I'll try to keep myself from making the same mistake.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 18:39:14 GMT
@sherry I am so sorry, I wanted to actually ask for permission, like if you would like to answer that because while I was writing it I did see that it was way too personal as is. I couldn't get online to correct myself sooner. I apologise for that question and I also thank you for not answering, because that was probably why I was asking and I am so sorry for that too. I'll try to keep myself from making the same mistake. 🙏🏽 It's ok.  But I will say, and hopefully this is helpful, that this is where AP obsession starts to feel intrusive and disregards the reality of other people. You simply cannot draw reasonable parallels between a relationship between two DA's who have experienced enough emotional growth through hard work in individual therapy and mutual effort toward real emotional intimacy, and your situation of a whirlwind romance of approximately two months between an unaware avoidant and a newly discovered AP. It's not reasonable, and it also minimizes what I cherish in the emotional bond I have worked hard to develop and maintain with my friend. We aren't dealing with unresolved attachment issues in a dysfunction bond that's emotionally unavalable. Wr aren't no contact and getting triggered on facebook while sharing no emotional availability. We have a relationship based on years of getting to know each other intimately, learning to resolve conflicts in a healthy way, negotiating our boundaries so that we can love and support each other in a mutually beneficial way. This is not a situation that you can look to in order to gain any kind of clarity for your situation. You ask me about romantic feelings, and it's a difficult question because the love that I feel for my friend is based on the true compassion and caring we have shown each other through tragedies, losses, painful personal process, and seeking our own spiritual growth and in fact, searching for the meaning of life itself! He knows me so deeply, and I trust him with every aspect of me. I have revealed my innermost self to him gradually over time, in response to his quiet loving presence that allowed me a safe place to do so. I have no secrets and I have no shame with him. When I cry, he offers empathy and encouragement and non judgement, no matter what it is that has me sad. He understands and embraces my quirks and idiosyncrasies. He knows what I love, and why I love it. He knows what hurts me, he knows what I hate. We used to fight and disrespect each other and hurt each other. We transformed our relationship over time to one of listening, understanding, cooperating, forgiving, honesty, and vulnerability. When you can say all of this about the object of your obsession, then you will have no question about whether or not he loves you. The question would not exist in your mind. Romantic love is not the highest love, it is not the deepest love, it is not the most important love. I am not feeling negatively toward you about what happens here at all, I am simply sharing my honest response to your questions so that you can understand the other side of the conversation here. AP attachment, when activated, is about anything but intimacy, and it's just not accurate to draw comparisons between that and the relationship (mine) you're looking to for clues. It's a great reason to just keep going with the path of self discovery and growth. It's a process and I'm not to impede you, just giving my honest feedback. I've been working hard on this for a while, I know how hard it is to change. It's a tremendous accomplishment and a huge blessing to share the friendship that I do with my ex. |
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 18, 2019 7:30:38 GMT
@sherry Sorry for my late reply,but I was ashamed. Thank you so much for your understanding. I was indeed in a bad place the whole day yesterday.
Indeed a triggered AP is not about intimacy at all. The feeling I got once I realized I was intrusive with you, was very familiar. Although I am a "quiet" AP, so I haven't had this feeling very often, I realise now that I stopped voicing my worries because of that feeling. Of course that did not make a huge difference for me, but at least I could avoid this feeling.
Growing up I thought that my worries were valid and that everyone pretty much had them. Then I thought it was just anxiety, but even though I got through that, I was still anxious and worried in my romantic relationships and that's when I started therapy. I also can remember being on the other side of this feeling with my mother. Not pretty. The way she jumps to conclusions is uncanny. The way she tries to find out "the truth", by being intrusive, is exhausting. I had made the connection that I share a common psych with my mother but never this way. Sometimes the answers are right in front of you and you just can't see them. This is very helpful.
Indeed I can not compare our relationships. They have nothing in common. I was looking to find hope as I see most APs are in here and that's part of the obsession. I too have been reading through the forum searching to find an answer and "hope" from a far, from my quiet place. Yesterday i voiced it. Thank you for being so understanding and still giving me advice after that.
What I also realised, is that by trying to desperately find hope by reading all the stories, I again, am constructing a picture of my ex which could not possibly be completely accurate. It's the cycle over and over again. It's so ingrained into me that i don't even realise I'm doing it. Well, at least up til now. Baby steps. I think being able to recognize when it's happening is a great first step. Or second, because acknowledging the problem is the first.
I am a bit overwhelmed by the whole thing. I want to get better and the more I dig, the more I find out how hard it's actually going to be. I wish I could just let go of my AP traits. I wish it was so simple. Last night I even thought "aw f* it, I'll just be single for the rest of my life or find someone who can tolerate it". I even started thinking that relationships should'nt be this hard and if the right person comes along, everything will be easy. Denial, clearly. Reminds me of what has been written of avoidant types and how they tend to think like that. Dunno if it's a streak of mine, because I did think this way in the past too, or just what society tells us, because I've been hearing this forever. "When the right person comes along, everything will make sense". You'll fall insanely in love, you'll get along perfectly, you won't have to negotiate a single thing. So at the first sign of trouble, I panicked and thought this is the end and of course built on that, making it almost a self fulfilling prophecy. Can't even imagine how it was for my partners, even though I rarely voiced my worries.
I am hopeful though as I'm even seeing my trait of negativity in my above thinking. "I'm doomed, I'll never change, it'll take forever and it's not worth it" etc. Then comes the black and white thinking. It's either going to take forever or a month, "I need to get over this NOW". No in-between. I really need to learn how to sit comfortably in the in between, where I think, the answers are, because no one can know the future, no one can actually have answers to everything. The most important thing is to live NOW, not in the past, not in the future. Now, where everything is "in doubt" but in a good way, if that makes sense.
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Post by anne12 on May 18, 2019 8:28:10 GMT
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 18, 2019 8:58:53 GMT
Oh Lord the first one was painful 😂 In the past I'd just say "oh I am NOT like that,I'm the opposite". Now, although I haven't ever behaved like that, I can find things in common in her underlying issue. I can totally relate to the second one as I have said it and I think I've been through that with a partner, but tbh, due to my AP attachment, I think I've always chosen unavailable men. I honestly don't think I've ignored someone's love. That's something to think about. Maybe with my recent ex? But I don't think he really did have feelings, way too soon for love, but in general romantic feelings. But, maybe he did and because he can't express them clearly and I can't see the tiny ways he showed he cared because I was too into analysing useless things, maybe this happened with us. Which is not a good combination obviously. Maybe the same thing has happened with another one, come to think of it. But in general, in most of my long term relationships, I was the one who left and not because of the absence of feeling loved. Or so I thought. Interesting. Thanks! |
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 18, 2019 9:11:22 GMT
I am coming to terms, by the way, that I really don't want/need him back. Still miss his company, but even in the rare occasion that he does "come back" and has miraculously changed overnight, I'M not ready for a relationship and certainly not that one. I haven't built him up to be a monster, as I really think his issues are as deep as mine, I hope I'm wrong for his own sake, and I hope he manages to solve them at some point in his life, because he seems to be a sweet man. I still have anger spells, as when I tell someone what happened, every one says "he used you". I don't know if he did, time will tell. I'm in the "in-between", comfortably, for now. I am still working on what my anger means, and what you said anne12, makes sense. I'm angry when I think he used me, because that's definitely not what I want. Could it be that simple? Could we have given anger such a negative vibe when it's just a useful emotion? Well at least in "simple" issues like these. Edit to add: maybe I'm angry because I don't know if he used me or not, I don't know the "answers" and I think that wanting to know the answers HERE and NOW is quite common amongst APs, my mother definitely is like that and I've noticed that when I can't find the answers to my worries "does he love me?", and when I'm microanalysing facial expressions etc, that I do get angry also. |
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 18, 2019 10:43:54 GMT
Not that it really matters, as the problems are still the same, I took the test again and it's the second time I got fearful avoidant. But still really close to AP. I'm sure it keeps on changing due to the mood one is in at the time of the test. It is indeed a spectrum. I can so much relate to what you posted anne12 with all the traits of an AP, so I guess I might just be on the borders. Are there any resources like the ones you sent me, about FAs? I searched a bit but some posts are deleted. |
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Post by anne12 on May 18, 2019 10:51:36 GMT
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 18, 2019 11:16:58 GMT
anne12 oh Lord, I was looking into FA and FA support. 🤐 Thank you so much!!
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Post by anne12 on May 18, 2019 11:37:11 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 18:16:17 GMT
mamut, DON'T beat yourself up, and don't give up! Speaking from experience: Seeing our thoughts and behavior play out as they are, in the cold light of day, is humiliating and painful, BUT it's also a real gift to have the clarity to see it. It's actually a gift to have others around who can let us see it, too. Because the fact is, and this is a real truth: If you can see it, you can change it. if you can't see it, you cannot change it. Our thoughts are creating who we are, today and tomorrow. Unfortunately, we have each been conditioned by things outside of our control and react to life in a way that's injurious to us, and to others. We alone can address it now, we have inherited it and if we want to be happier and not continue to make ourselves and others miserable we have no choice but to face it. Shame and guilt are only useful to the extent that they can inspire us. Just be inspired to work on it. It's not that we are bad, wrong, unlovable. We think and behave in unconscious ways, and that's that. No crime, just uncomfortable. Once we see it we can either capitulate to despair and misery or we can roll up our sleeves and get to making efforts to grow. So, I have found that the best thing is to take my lumps and resolve to do better. It is work. It is discipline. It is not easy and sometimes there is no end in sight. I still get discouraged, I still am not sure the best way forward. Yet all I can do is stay with myself today and pay attention, be alert, and keep my confidence that I can train myself in new ways. It takes a lot of approaches, it takes the development of positive qualities that have been lacking and one of them is simple perseverance. You just keep at it. Most of us I guess have to hit a wall in oder to crack open enough to let something new in. It's ok. We all feel like crap sometimes believe me. Sometimes it's just hard to have faith, but that's why I said when you don't trust the process hang out with people who do until you feel better!
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 18, 2019 22:38:51 GMT
@sherry thank you so much for your encouraging words. I'll come back to your post ever time I feel like I want to give up.
I am feeling a lot better tonight. A whole lot better because I went out and had a marvellous time, but also I'm starting to truly see how bad of a match we were. It's kinda sad that I'm letting go, but I know it's for the best. I felt so good tonight that I thought about texting him, just to, honestly, hang out as friends. I miss his company so much. Reason, fortunately, came immediately and I didn't. I'm not ready yet, even though I feel better. I know now that I'd just sabotage my healing.
The more I read about attachments, the more I become aware. While I was out, I saw how my overthinking actually kept me tensed, even in normal, everyday interactions with people. They may not cause me anxiety, but they sure do block me from feeling free. I caught myself over analysing the most ridiculous things tonight, instead of enjoying the moment and just doing what I'd like to do. This is amazing. Sad, that I've lived life so far all caught up in pointless thoughts, but proud that I've started to spot my traits. But we don't live in the past, so I'm keeping the proud feeling. As you said, we need to continuously work on it , because, frankly, what's the alternative? To keep on living like this? No way. I am so grateful for this forum and you guys, I am learning a lot and have such amazing support for it.
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 19, 2019 12:37:23 GMT
I think me over analysing situations is because I care too much about what other people think of me. That was hard to accept when I first realised it in therapy. I was the one always giving advice to people to not care of what others think. Funny.
So when I'm paying attention to the most ridiculous details in other's behaviors, I'm spending all my energy there instead of on me and what I am feeling and what I want to do. Every time I realised I was doing that last night, I stopped and tried to understand what I needed and tried to act like I felt. It wasn't as successful, but it sure is a step. I also remember me thinking when talking to a woman I just met, "does she like me?is she bored?am I boring her?I bet she is just sitting here to be nice", talk about self confidence lol.
This has turned into a journal, but it really helps me to write them down and knowing that someone can relate and/or comment. It's different than a personal journal. I feel safe here too. Thanks to anyone who is reading.
Regarding my ex, I still have the need to contact him, as I miss him and I would love to just hang. I do feel that I'm not ready yet, for example if I find out he has moved on to another girl, it'll crush me. So definitely not ready yet. I'm sure that kind of news is never easy to hear, but there's a difference between "crush' and just a bruised ego.
What is bothering me most about it, but at the same time, is a learning point, is that I do have a small streak of anxiety to the thought that I will lose him as a friend. I thought this wouldn't happen as it didn't appear in the beginning. I'm also afraid that he might take my NC rule as a punishment or drama or something, when it isn't about that at all. I'm just telling myself that this is another thing I can't control and I'm trying to leave it at that and direct my energy back to me. Seems to be working good so far. Still, as much as I'd like to see him, I haven't had an urge to text. Just thinking about it etc.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 13:02:15 GMT
mamut, your mind is very strong and open to insights as they are coming, it's cool to see. I don't know you but as someone interacting with you here and reading what you're expressing about your discoveries, I would guess that this process is going to be very fruitful and rewarding for you. It does take time and there are a lot of ups and downs, but all the work you've been doing up till this point, coupled with painful experiences that are showing you what DOESN'T benefit you, have brought you to a place where real change is possible. Being able to observe yourself in glitches and habitual ways of thinking and interacting is priceless. And, while it's uncomfortable, it can also give you a glimpse of the direction you want to go. I used to really get discouraged with myself when I saw my patterns, heck, sometimes I still do, they lurk i. my shadows and whisper crap to me, even after I have come so far. But, there is an opposite or just different behavior to all of the negative behaviors, and seeing them in contrast can help you take steps in the direction you actually want to go in. Taking the example of being concerned about what other people think about you. I don't have that issue so much, I have the issue of just assuming they don't understand me. So, there goes my little facade, I'll tend to keep my truest self back and down and just interact superficially and go my way, off to myself. The interaction is what I make it- kind of meaningless. A different option that I enjoy is to come to an interaction looking for ways to connect, with an attitude of openness and kindness toward both of us. As in, "Ah, here we are, two women who have gone through ups and downs, have had our childhoods good or bad, we each have things that are precious to us, and things we struggle with, what can I discover about this person that makes her unique? What can I share about myself that bridges a gap? Where can we find commonality and then walk away smiling? How can we just be human together? " That second way of showing up puts me immediately into a different reality, it gives me an immediate, real time experience of being different from my habit. I don't have to just figure out all the ways I suck and am unhealthy, haha, although I've spent plenty of time and money trying to figure all that out over the years. There's also the method of just doing differently, just trying a different shirt on so to speak and showing up in it and seeing how it goes. Positive experiences build upon themselves, You might like the fit and feel if the new shirt better and pick it out of the closet and put it on more and more. I guess what I'm saying is that by now, I change directions easier than I used to. I've steered away from my deeply rutted wagon tracks enough to have worn them down, I can go another direction easier. You'll get there too!
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mamut
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Post by mamut on May 19, 2019 17:05:04 GMT
@sherry Thank you for your encouraging words! I too think I'm changing. It's like I'm in a cocoon and I know that it'll take time until I get out. Now, compared to the other day, I don't feel like running away from it. The more I study, the more I observe, the more sense it makes.
I wrote a lengthy reply and I hit "back" and it disappeared. Took me an hour + to decide to write again, it was so good! I hope I can get in all the important details this time round.
So I was thinking, the reason I'm so caught up into details derives from my childhood, of course no surprise here, but I think I now understand exactly how. My mother was always anxious and whenever she didn't get the response she wanted from me, she started yelling. I think that made me just shut up and observe. Observe her body language, facial expressions and so on, until I knew it was safe to ask for her love or whatever I needed at that time.
Then comes gender. My mother thinks that women are indeed the weaker gender and that men are far more superior and we have to tend to their needs and everything misogynistic that comes with that. I was not allowed to express myself. Simplest thing, I was forced into wearing dresses. I couldn't do what boys did, not even go fishing. I was basically restricted in the house as a pre teen/teen. Ok not that bad, but Believe me when I say I met a neighbor of mine when I was 18 and he was shocked that I lived a couple of houses down the street to his.
I have an older brother who not only always followed the rules, but was also a boy. So he was always right. Anything he did was amazing, anything I wanted was dismissed. I had to always do what he did in order to be accepted and of course, I never did, so I was(and still am) never accepted. I recently set boundaries with my mother. Ive already set boundaries with my brother a year ago. It feels great. I'm no longer looking for their acceptance. I love them and will always be there for them through difficult times and they will for me too, but I can't be with them,I can't share my lives with them. So that is definitely helpful for what I'm doing now. Still stings a bit , I have to admit.
My father was mostly a voice over the phone so I'm used to loving "unavailable" people and maybe that is another place that I started decrypting even voices, to figure out what another person really means. Does my dad really love me? Can I hear it in his voice? Then why isn't he here? Ironically,he actually supported me and my dreams and took me fishing whenever he visited. I have idolized him of course because he wasn't really around for me to see his bad side or for him to truly support me. That definitely adds to the fact I'm drawn to unavailable people. My recent ex isn't my first.
That pretty much sums up my upbringing. Add some horrible first relationships, with my very first "serious" one being so unavailable he wasn't even there for me when my father passed away, to one with a sociopath 10 years ago and everything adds up to my AP attachment style with whatever avoidant streaks it has in it.
I think I'll make it. Trying not to rush. I have no intention in getting into any type of relationship any time soon. I even saw some attractive men last night, didn't even care. Of course the break up is still fresh, but it's not only that, I can feel it.
Now to what you're saying about how you interact with people. I wish I was confident, I almost wished I too thought people just don't get me, but I can see how stressful that is and it has little to do with confidence, if I understand correctly? I can and am really good at small talk and finding connections with people I just meet, but apparently I do it for acceptance, because I never had it from my caregivers.
I need to keep my power in me and push it outwards, instead of trying to take power from anyone else in order to feel better about myself, if that makes any sense.
I'm so glad you're doing so well. I understand that's it's a constant battle, that it does get easier, but it's still a battle, but once you're aware, there's no turning back. My therapist confirmed that no one's perfect, even the most secure ones. We're humans after all and to be honest, if every one was perfect, life would be pretty dull don't you think?
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But I will say, and hopefully this is helpful, that this is where AP obsession starts to feel intrusive and disregards the reality of other people. You simply cannot draw reasonable parallels between a relationship between two DA's who have experienced enough emotional growth through hard work in individual therapy and mutual effort toward real emotional intimacy, and your situation of a whirlwind romance of approximately two months between an unaware avoidant and a newly discovered AP. It's not reasonable, and it also minimizes what I cherish in the emotional bond I have worked hard to develop and maintain with my friend.
