|
Post by stu on Sept 17, 2019 7:15:12 GMT
If you are more secure, then things can calm down for the FA and then there is more room for the trauma whirl wind to make noise. Also when we are 1 - 2 years in the relationship and we are perceiving the partner as parmanent our attatchment kicks in and our attatchment style patterns can show up. Also in my opinion, you can not really know if you are earned secure enough before you have been in a relationship for more than two years - when the honeymoon fase is over. I am not completely earned secure, I would say 85 to 90 percent I feel secure but I have AP moments as well, to a lesser extent dismissive moments as well. Just much further along then I ever used to be. I feel "normal" and even quite more healthy then most real life examples of relationships I see day to day. Not perfect by a long shot, but healthy enough to be fully emotionally available and capabale of a reciprocal adult relationship with good communication on my end and conflict resolution skills.I really wish I could just be there for them fully and help them through things. But it is what it is I guess
|
|
|
Post by serenity on Sept 17, 2019 8:17:34 GMT
I have a good friend with FA attachment style, that started as a disastrous 1 month relationship (3 painful discards in a month). I went NC until I was over him, and we reconnected as platonic friends because of a mutual hobby and social group. For me, platonic friendship has been the better way to support someone like this. With intimacy taken out of the equation (as well as the `love' projections' that Anne mentioned), he can connect more frequently, and with more stability. A year after we reconnected, this friend now connects most days with me in some fashion. He connects to me first if he's depressed or going through a bad time. And he's a really good source of comfort and support in return. There's no longer hot-cold behaviour or ghosting. He's in therapy though. The FA guy I've been seeing for 15 months just cycled back from his second major deactivation. Every time he ghosts it feels like a bad relationship breakup, and I don't know a single empathetic person, secure or otherwise, who doesn't grieve when their relationship ends. I'm just exhausted by being put into that state of grief and pain and uncertainty, for giving him the love and closeness he actively seeks from me I hate the way the `hot-cold' behaviour in between deactivations causes dissociation in me, that can't be healthy. I had to tell him we could be friends only now. That really sucked, and he ghosted so I expect it hurt. But I don't see anything else that can be done, that won't damage me.
|
|
|
Post by stu on Sept 17, 2019 14:41:36 GMT
. I'm just exhausted by being put into that state of grief and pain and uncertainty, for giving him the love and closeness he actively seeks from me I hate the way the `hot-cold' behaviour in between deactivations causes dissociation in me, that can't be healthy. I had to tell him we could be friends only now. That really sucked, and he ghosted so I expect it hurt. But I don't see anything else that can be done, that won't damage me. That's exactly what I am going through as well. Doing what I can to be supportive and encouraging, nurturing a solid relationship and connection. But with de activation and all of a sudden vanishing out of nowhere with no explanation after being close and acting great for months, it feels like a shitty break up every time. With all the grief and pain included. I always read about an avoidant being with a secure helps to make them secure themselves. But I don't see how randomly ghosting someone for weeks or over a month at a time is even being in a relationship, or makes any kind of committed relationship possible at all. On top of it the complete ghosting to any kind of reach out. No matter how much you work on self validation and self re assurance. It's still damaging to be treated like that. It's affecting my personality and the way I feel about relationships in general as well. I went from them telling me everything about themselves, dark stuff and all, leaning on me for support and then feeling like they are giving me the silent treatment out of resentment or something. And no response to anything I wrote, regardless of how nice I worded things and said things gently.
|
|
|
Post by dhali on Sept 17, 2019 15:12:50 GMT
anne12, this is so interesting and makes total sense. What I’m wondering is when someone has gone in low road mode and come back out, how best to express the impact of the behavior without shaming? Meaning are there any special suggestions that help to show the person they’re in a safe space but one that’s also holding them accountable? Obviously a healthy relationship can’t be built unless they are working on themselves too, but say they are, they do something hurtful, it’s important for the impacted party to be able to express themselves. I’m guessing they fear being shamed / rejected after coming out of this because they know they hurt the other person which might make them just avoid it all together. They’ve also probably expect to be shamed / rejected / scolded as that’s what’s happened to them before I’d guess. I’d imagine it’d be best just to be kind, clear, set boundaries, and be calm. When I’ve experienced low road behavior from the FA I’ve been involved with, he’s always apologized upon his return / what seems to be when he comes out of the low road. We haven’t had anything major until this time where I’m being ignored for a couple weeks now (which could’ve been sparked by something he took a way unintended), but just curious in general. I think this is being taken to an extreme. This is the same exact thing that happens when you are, say mad. And you start saying things you’re going to regret at some point in the future. Your lizard brain takes over. You pre-frontal cortex is activated in instinctual ways. Your lizard brain is in control. You lose a ton of control over what you do next. It’s called being triggered. It happens to us all, and FA’s aren’t unique. So, what happens when someone calls you out for acting in ways they didn’t like while your lizard brain took over? It probably doesn’t go well. It’s very shaming. As for the person asking about the time spent in this “low road” it’s not weeks. It’s probably not much longer than a day or so. How long do you spend in a triggered state? It’s not weeks, unless you’ve been done real dirty. The answer is meditation. That will slow emotional triggers down. But good luck getting an avoidant to meditate regularly.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2019 16:04:47 GMT
FA guy I've been seeing for 15 months just cycled back from his second major deactivation. Every time he ghosts it feels like a bad relationship breakup, and I don't know a single empathetic person, secure or otherwise, who doesn't grieve when their relationship ends. I'm just exhausted by being put into that state of grief and pain and uncertainty, for giving him the love and closeness he actively seeks from me I hate the way the `hot-cold' behaviour in between deactivations causes dissociation in me, that can't be healthy. I can relate.
|
|
|
Post by stu on Sept 17, 2019 19:21:49 GMT
caro Yeah that's very true, things are going to be very different from someone of a particular upbringing, wiring, and precious life experiences that makes them FA in the first place. And the experience isn't going to be understood completely from others who haven't gone through it themselves. One of the biggest challenges with the FA I was seeing was her ability to trust other people though. She always feels like people are trying to use her or have a hidden agenda. And doesn't fully trust anyone, even her best friends. So even if I'm not an untrustworthy or sketchy person, or threat detection and self defensive walls still went up, because her brain has hair trigger self defense mechanisms to avoid any pain, abandonment, engilfment, intimacy, or all the rest. Which is where self work and therapy is so helpful, because until you unblock those defense mechanisms and work on re conditioning yourself. The same things just keep happening in a cycle . And for myself it's impossible to know what's going on or to communicate with them. Because their mode of self preservation is to shut down, run, and hide. Regardless of the consequences, the emotional impulse of fight or flight over rides anything else. We all should definitely do our best to take care of ourselves and have strong boundaries, so we are less emotionally pulled in different directions. It's hard to be attached to someone and intimate with them, and not get upset when they do certain things that don't feel appropriate. That's just human nature of any relationship.
|
|
|
Post by dhali on Sept 17, 2019 21:07:58 GMT
Caroline, I used mad as an example. Same prefrontal cortex activation as described in the video.
As for being activated mad, I was using mad as an example. How can someone be triggered continuously for a period of time that spans weeks?? How exhausting. Leave them alone if they are triggered that long. The video is not explaining weeks of avoidance and being on the low road. It’s explaining a moment in time. It seems to me that AP’s are stabbing at explanations that sooth them, and now we are considering being triggered for weeks/months. That’s not how it works. You can retrigger, but no one spends weeks in a triggered state continuously. One thing to consider is- they just aren’t that into you.
|
|
|
Post by stu on Sept 17, 2019 21:31:24 GMT
Caroline, I used mad as an example. Same prefrontal cortex activation as described in the video. As for being activated mad, I was using mad as an example. How can someone be triggered continuously for a period of time that spans weeks?? How exhausting. Leave them alone if they are triggered that long. The video is not explaining weeks of avoidance and being on the low road. It’s explaining a moment in time. It seems to me that AP’s are stabbing at explanations that sooth them, and now we are considering being triggered for weeks/months. That’s not how it works. You can retrigger, but no one spends weeks in a triggered state continuously. One thing to consider is- they just aren’t that into you. Yeah that's what I was getting at before as well. Though I don't think it's always as simple as they aren't that into you. It's a common pattern with a lot of FAs to run away when things get too intimate or anything triggers that deeper insecurity and fight or flight. Re engaging for some after de activation probably feels intimidating and they don't want to experience the same feeling again. So they run.
|
|
|
Post by tnr9 on Sept 17, 2019 21:36:31 GMT
Caroline, I used mad as an example. Same prefrontal cortex activation as described in the video. As for being activated mad, I was using mad as an example. How can someone be triggered continuously for a period of time that spans weeks?? How exhausting. Leave them alone if they are triggered that long. The video is not explaining weeks of avoidance and being on the low road. It’s explaining a moment in time. It seems to me that AP’s are stabbing at explanations that sooth them, and now we are considering being triggered for weeks/months. That’s not how it works. You can retrigger, but no one spends weeks in a triggered state continuously. One thing to consider is- they just aren’t that into you. I have been triggered for days.....that is what AP rumination is.
|
|
|
Post by number9 on Sept 17, 2019 22:29:09 GMT
Caroline, I used mad as an example. Same prefrontal cortex activation as described in the video. As for being activated mad, I was using mad as an example. How can someone be triggered continuously for a period of time that spans weeks?? How exhausting. Leave them alone if they are triggered that long. The video is not explaining weeks of avoidance and being on the low road. It’s explaining a moment in time. It seems to me that AP’s are stabbing at explanations that sooth them, and now we are considering being triggered for weeks/months. That’s not how it works. You can retrigger, but no one spends weeks in a triggered state continuously. One thing to consider is- they just aren’t that into you. I often wonder if people (particularly the APs) are thinking a person has deactivated when really "they just aren't that into you" -- especially when AP behaviour can feel annoying and clingy (to avoidants or even secures). We might think "oh it's not about me; it's about this person's attachment issues," which is of course true in some cases but often it's just that they are done and want to move on. Any idea how to tell the difference?
|
|
|
Post by dhali on Sept 17, 2019 22:57:44 GMT
If you’re mad for months, it’s called a grudge, and you’re more than aware that it’s something you’re holding. If you re-get angry, it’s a new trigger. Even if it’s over the same thing. Again, no one is in lizard brain mode continuously for weeks. You’d get nothing done, and would make no sense about anything to anyone. You’d come across as a mad person. The responses here make me believe that many don’t understand what the video is describing.
You know those terrible decisions (or things you say) while mad? Those things you eventually wish you could take back because you felt you were using little to no judgement on? It may even feel as if you had no control over it. It feels like it was your emotions getting the best of you? Are you in that state of making regretful remarks and or decisions for chunks of time measured in months?? If you know people like that, run away from them. That doesn’t mean someone can’t be mad for months. Or hold a grudge. They aren’t in lizard brain mode that whole time though.
|
|
|
Post by dhali on Sept 17, 2019 23:07:59 GMT
Caroline, I used mad as an example. Same prefrontal cortex activation as described in the video. As for being activated mad, I was using mad as an example. How can someone be triggered continuously for a period of time that spans weeks?? How exhausting. Leave them alone if they are triggered that long. The video is not explaining weeks of avoidance and being on the low road. It’s explaining a moment in time. It seems to me that AP’s are stabbing at explanations that sooth them, and now we are considering being triggered for weeks/months. That’s not how it works. You can retrigger, but no one spends weeks in a triggered state continuously. One thing to consider is- they just aren’t that into you. I often wonder if people (particularly the APs) are thinking a person has deactivated when really "they just aren't that into you" -- especially when AP behaviour can feel annoying and clingy (to avoidants or even secures). We might think "oh it's not about me; it's about this person's attachment issues," which is of course true in some cases but often it's just that they are done and want to move on. Any idea how to tell the difference? My ex FA (she may be DA) would tell me how her ex’s disgust her. I’m sure this reflects her feelings. It probably began during her deactivation process. And sure, prefrontal cortex low road stuff. But to think years later , because she hasn’t reached out to them, or that she still doesn’t like them, that she’s been in a continual state of “low road” uncontrollable irrational thoughts (triggered) is absurd. She most likely internalized those thoughts and it became her truth. We never lasted long enough to get the full scoop (she wasn’t an open book either, surprise), but thoughts started to cross my mind of- how is it you are disgusted by all of your ex’s? Of course it never crossed my mind I’d be on that list!
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Sept 17, 2019 23:22:38 GMT
If someone is done and they want to move on and they're secure, they'll tell you that, they'll tell you why (even if it's a sugar-coated excuse), and their actions and words will match. If that's not the case, and you're just getting ignored or on and off behavior after an actual connection happened and you got to know each other somewhat (not after only a couple dates or whatever), then it's not respectful, probably not about you, and not worth your time.
It's an AP tendency to look through their own lens to judge the behavior of others. Ie, I'd have never acted this way / ignored someone, so they must be aware and intentionally ignoring me to be hurtful. That's not how this works.
While the silent treatment sucks and is demeaning and shouldn't be tolerated as a go-to conflict resolution tactic, an avoidant who does this may not even notice. This is why they're called avoidant -- they avoid. Some disassociate and honestly don't. Even. Notice. Maybe for weeks. I was AP, I couldn't imagine how that could ever be the case, but it can.
There's a bunch of threads on this boards from DAs who talk about basically realizing with awareness that they were shut down for huge stretches and had no idea. I had a serious DA boyfriend who normally was on the more secure side but would periodically vanish for ten days. He absolutely loved me and we discussed this after the first time it happened. He couldn't explain it, but it had nothing to do with me, and he'd have to shut the world out from time to time. It was his self-care in a way, and he'd basically spend the time alone working on creative pursuits. Once I was secure in the relationship, it was annoying that it happened unpredictably, but it was fine. I knew he'd always come back and we weren't breaking up and would do my own thing. Yes, even though I was AP. We were still on good terms a couple years when he had another serious girlfriend, and he came to me and said, you're the only person who has ever tried to understand that about me and why did you tolerate it? I told him why I thought he'd do that (in retrospect he was generally triggered and deactivating from the world, but I didn't know those terms), and he thought what I said was very insightful and had asked me because his new gf was having a tantrum about it and he wanted help explaining what was happening because he still didn't understand himself but didn't want to break up over it.
My long-term FA boyfriend deactivated every time we were on the verge of a change in relationship, either breaking up or getting more serious. He disappear, and after a few weeks would come back and not have noticed. He honestly thought he was just busier than usual, not realize weeks had passed, once he even blamed his phone -- but he really believed it. The only time he ever recognized that he'd gone silent on me on his own was when he came back because he was triggered anxious by something I said, and then he was all acknowledgement, awareness, and apologies, explaining he had no idea why it had happened and thanking me for staying consistent and not taking it personally.
This isn't a matter of just not that into you. Why not? Because, it actually doesn't matter at all. That's still an "other" way of looking at it and not a self-focused perspective. What do YOU want? Do you want a partner who deactivates, because of you, in spite of you, nothing to do with you, whatever... does that meet your needs? What if they deactivate and it's a turnoff and the result is you're just not that into them?
They're probably not doing it on purpose. If they are, they're not a good partner because their communication and conflict resolution needs work. If you're AP, look inward to deal with this because you can't manage someone else's deactivation, you can only recognize it's an action they're taking but it's not something they are consciously doing to you.
|
|
|
Post by serenity on Sept 17, 2019 23:39:31 GMT
I liked how in the video, he explained that ``being triggered'' isn't just a bodily sensation, its also accompanied by a very negative and opposing mindset that is tied to the limbic system. I've heard this referred to as `splitting' , where a person loses object constancy and only sees someone as `all bad''. In my experiences, that mindset seems to take longer to shift back to normal for FA's. Days, Weeks, months. You can't get through to them when they are in a `splitting' mindset. They genuinely think you are a threat, the enemy, and their minds will attach to all kinds of reasons to justify that. You're imperfect. You're out to get them, You are this or that. They can get abusive and mean if you start challenging or countering their thinking at that time. But then their mind slowly shifts back to pre-frontal cortex thinking and a lot of the negative stuff fades. So yeah, maybe they are ``just not into you'' when their mindset flips because of the triggered state. Thats probably a fair assessment. But then their mind flips back from `limbic thinking' over a period of time, they come at you with their love, their apologies and excuses that don't make much sense even to them. It exhausting dealing with it. Wondering if they will stay faithful during their many, many triggered times. Dealing with silent treatments, the passive aggressive blows to your self worth, occasional abusive outbursts, and disappearances. Edit: Just saw your post dhali, about your ex girlfreind. In my experiences, DA's and FA's with narcissistic traits are more likely to hold onto negative assessments of others, because it feeds into their defence of using grandiosity and belittling others for `self esteem'. And i'm sorry that happened to you, it really sucks to be treated that way
|
|
|
Post by alexandra on Sept 17, 2019 23:40:07 GMT
|
|