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Post by dhali on Sept 18, 2019 15:41:16 GMT
I'm on the fence about whether stonewalling from a trauma victim is abuse too. I know for them it feels necessary and its probably intended as a defense. I know that being on the receiving end hurts so very badly. Is there a middle ground? If there is, I don't think accepting it and taking them back every time it is a middle ground. I wanted to say, that when I said `abusive discard', I mean that my ex verbally abused me as part of his second deactivation, then discarded me, then stonewalled me. Abuse like that crosses a line with me, I have zero tolerance for it. He got a earful from me about it, and he apologised/ explained after a couple of weeks. Your girl has obviously has not crossed that line, so I see the murkiness of the situation. This is where we part company abuse is abuse. You’re responsible for your own actions, even if it’s not malicious. It’s common knowledge that stonewalling is an act of aggression. And if someone can’t control or take responsibility for their actions, then why have any societal rules? I can use your empathy argument to apply to anyone who is a sociopath. It’s not as if they choose that path afterall. We are ALL responsible for our actions. Don’t excuse away shitty behavior. |
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Post by stu on Sept 18, 2019 15:52:44 GMT
@unsure thank you for that perspective. I did not realize so much like that could be going on behind it. I don't want to assume negative things, and want to be as understanding as possible. The dissociation sounds really tough as well and sorry to hear you are going through that. It seems a really difficult thing to live with until one earns secure.
I don't know if she is a previous trauma victim or not. I do know she has been visibly and vocallu distressed since the period we haven't talked. Not to say it's centered around me only, but she talked to mutual friends saying she's extremely stressed out and anxious.
She is seeing our mutual friends and staying connected and going out with other friends during the week, being social, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's happy and feeling good. I can see why she would be intimadated to reach back out to me.
Especially because I've talked to her about pretty triggering things before, regarding her behaviors and how it can come across. Before I learned about attachment theory it came across in a more blunt and negative way as well.
I haven't had a single discussion with her at all the last few months we were dating though. I made it a point not to talk about anything to serious or possibly stressful and just worked on building a solid connection. We were seeing each other for over a year totally. But had some periods of where we stopped talking before.
If she talked to me now and was open to it I think her fear about all of it would dissipate pretty quickly. Because I would be aware not to say anything to make her feel shameful, guilty, or bad about herself. Not that I did before either, I just didn't speak in a totally clear and understanding way before. I don't want to interrogate her, I just want to help her get over things and have understanding. But that's only if she wants that and we are in the same mindset together.
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Post by dhali on Sept 18, 2019 16:11:07 GMT
Caroline- resentment is usually about you, and how you’re angry you compromised something you shouldn’t have. It’s seldom (helpless situations are the exception) about the other person
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 17:15:02 GMT
@unsure thank you for that perspective. I did not realize so much like that could be going on behind it. I don't want to assume negative things, and want to be as understanding as possible. The dissociation sounds really tough as well and sorry to hear you are going through that. It seems a really difficult thing to live with until one earns secure. I don't know if she is a previous trauma victim or not. I do know she has been visibly and vocallu distressed since the period we haven't talked. Not to say it's centered around me only, but she talked to mutual friends saying she's extremely stressed out and anxious. She is seeing our mutual friends and staying connected and going out with other friends during the week, being social, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's happy and feeling good. I can see why she would be intimadated to reach back out to me. Especially because I've talked to her about pretty triggering things before, regarding her behaviors and how it can come across. Before I learned about attachment theory it came across in a more blunt and negative way as well. I haven't had a single discussion with her at all the last few months we were dating though. I made it a point not to talk about anything to serious or possibly stressful and just worked on building a solid connection. We were seeing each other for over a year totally. But had some periods of where we stopped talking before. If she talked to me now and was open to it I think her fear about all of it would dissipate pretty quickly. Because I would be aware not to say anything to make her feel shameful, guilty, or bad about herself. Not that I did before either, I just didn't speak in a totally clear and understanding way before. I don't want to interrogate her, I just want to help her get over things and have understanding. But that's only if she wants that and we are in the same mindset together. I just want to say that I'm in the same situation as you guys and I feel as helpless, in the dark as you are. But it's not my first time and I've learnt there's no: "If only he..., I would..." "they had a conversation and they lived happy ever after". |
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Post by alexandra on Sept 18, 2019 17:46:26 GMT
Also, if someone experienced trauma, it's probable they use dissociation to cope. It's not pleasant. I've been dissociating on and off for the last 2 weeks, I'm going abroad next week and there's a lot of things I have to do before that, but I don't. There won't be enough time, I know it but I do nothing about it. I'm not stressed. I feel nothing. Time passes, I don't know when. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't remember what I did. I can imagine someone might be in that state and unable to talk. I'm really glad you added this, too, and now we've got multiple people saying it here. It was really hard for me, when I was AP, to understand this. I actually didn't figure this out until only about 9 months ago, when my FA ex was doing it (not for the first time, I'd noticed him do it before but couldn't explain it) and I ran it by an aware FA female friend who also knows him and it all clicked during that conversation. And, try to have fun abroad. I love traveling  |
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Post by stu on Sept 18, 2019 17:48:16 GMT
@unsure thank you for that perspective. I did not realize so much like that could be going on behind it. I don't want to assume negative things, and want to be as understanding as possible. The dissociation sounds really tough as well and sorry to hear you are going through that. It seems a really difficult thing to live with until one earns secure. I don't know if she is a previous trauma victim or not. I do know she has been visibly and vocallu distressed since the period we haven't talked. Not to say it's centered around me only, but she talked to mutual friends saying she's extremely stressed out and anxious. She is seeing our mutual friends and staying connected and going out with other friends during the week, being social, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's happy and feeling good. I can see why she would be intimadated to reach back out to me. Especially because I've talked to her about pretty triggering things before, regarding her behaviors and how it can come across. Before I learned about attachment theory it came across in a more blunt and negative way as well. I haven't had a single discussion with her at all the last few months we were dating though. I made it a point not to talk about anything to serious or possibly stressful and just worked on building a solid connection. We were seeing each other for over a year totally. But had some periods of where we stopped talking before. If she talked to me now and was open to it I think her fear about all of it would dissipate pretty quickly. Because I would be aware not to say anything to make her feel shameful, guilty, or bad about herself. Not that I did before either, I just didn't speak in a totally clear and understanding way before. I don't want to interrogate her, I just want to help her get over things and have understanding. But that's only if she wants that and we are in the same mindset together. I just want to say that I'm in the same situation as you guys and I feel as helpless, in the dark as you are. But it's not my first time and I've learnt there's no: "If only he..., I would..." "they had a conversation and they lived happy ever after". I'm sorry to hear you're going through it too. I don't think a single conversation makes all the challenges go away. But being clear on what both people want. And that they are committed to that is an important foundation to build on . If both people are actively and seriously working on themselves, are self aware , and actively trying to grow their relationship, because they value it over the rest. Then that aspiration becomes their grounding point. Rather then self preservation. Even if you go off the mark or fall into old habits again. If the aspiration is in the right place you always return back there again. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 18:25:54 GMT
Also, if someone experienced trauma, it's probable they use dissociation to cope. It's not pleasant. I've been dissociating on and off for the last 2 weeks, I'm going abroad next week and there's a lot of things I have to do before that, but I don't. There won't be enough time, I know it but I do nothing about it. I'm not stressed. I feel nothing. Time passes, I don't know when. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't remember what I did. I can imagine someone might be in that state and unable to talk. I'm really glad you added this, too, and now we've got multiple people saying it here. It was really hard for me, when I was AP, to understand this. I actually didn't figure this out until only about 9 months ago, when my FA ex was doing it (not for the first time, I'd noticed him do it before but couldn't explain it) and I ran it by an aware FA female friend who also knows him and it all clicked during that conversation. And, try to have fun abroad. I love traveling Yes, it seems to be a common coping mechanism among FA. It sucks and honestly, I only now realized that I might have been reacting to my FA's dissociation and how it must have felt for him... even though I do it myself. Thank you! I'll try to snap out of it. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 19:16:15 GMT
I just want to say that I'm in the same situation as you guys and I feel as helpless, in the dark as you are. But it's not my first time and I've learnt there's no: "If only he..., I would..." "they had a conversation and they lived happy ever after". I'm sorry to hear you're going through it too. I don't think a single conversation makes all the challenges go away. But being clear on what both people want. And that they are committed to that is an important foundation to build on . If both people are actively and seriously working on themselves, are self aware , and actively trying to grow their relationship, because they value it over the rest. Then that aspiration becomes their grounding point. Rather then self preservation. Even if you go off the mark or fall into old habits again. If the aspiration is in the right place you always return back there again. No, I meant that you might have that conversation and agree on things- it won't matter. The source of the problem is unresolved trauma, what you're focused on is healing the symptoms. You think if you manage the symptoms, everything will be alright. I've been there, I've done that. It won't. It's not the solution. From the link anne12 provided: "1) They always move in the direction of stuckness and there’s always a ton of resistance blocking their way, no matter how much positive headway they make and positive affirmations they repeat. They have trouble with attention and focus and can’t seem to stay consistent with anything. 3) They get hijacked by fear and anxiety, even though they know there’s nothing to be afraid of (and you could have sworn that they finally got through their fears… so why do they keep coming back?!) They ruminate on things that happened weeks and often months ago, and they tend to create these downward spirals out of seemingly nothing. Or the flipside: they often seem numbed out and can’t feel anything – in their body, or in their emotions – and no matter how many fancy tricks you throw at them nothing seems to budge. There’s no ‘joie de vivre’ in them, and sometimes all you want to do is shake ‘em up a bit. 5) They’ve stumped all of their doctors and specialists, and even though you might help them get a little bit of relief, their system is like a slippery fish: just when you think you’ve got something figured out, that ‘something’ pops away immediately and another sign or symptom emerges." You're also coming from a different place, to them a relationship, a person who shows them love is not a source of security but fear/disappointment . |
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Post by alexandra on Sept 18, 2019 21:54:50 GMT
Yes yes yes. My experience matches @unsure. When I advise that there needs to be observable work towards earning security and prolonged consistency if an insecure partner returns, it's because I went through full rounds of cycles with my ex, during which I was pretty different (AP the first time, not yet secure but close to it the second with much much better communication). It didn't matter what I did. I did things patiently, securely, mostly non-triggering the second time because I was less anxious through working on myself and also wanted to be as good of a partner as I was capable of to him (not meaning not enabling him or walking on eggshells, just showing up lovingly while being myself and accepting who he is). His behaviors repeated exactly, no matter what we talked about or committed to or what I said or did or how secure I was or not. Because he hasn't wanted to tackle his side of things and, in fact, still insists he'll never change. Which is fine, his choice, and not a choice that works for me in this context. And now it's a long time later, so we're friends again and I'm not worried about it. Though periodically it's admittedly frustrating to observe how much harder he makes life for himself than it needs to be when he gets stuck in all the FA life traps.
If the person isn't ready to get to the core of their fears (for any insecure, it's fear of abandonment, fear of engulfment, or both) and confront and heal their pain, then they're just hitting the surface-level symptoms and won't actually change their lives that way.
Those fears come from something before they met you, so that's why you have no impact. Maybe you have set a good example so inspire them to consider doing their own work. That's the best you can do for someone, so instead of fighting through the partner's repetitive cycles hoping for change... you realize you can only control your side of the equation and do what's healthy for you to break your own cycle (while being respectful to them, assuming they weren't abusive).
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Post by stu on Sept 18, 2019 22:36:46 GMT
Thank you alexandra and @unsure that makes things very clear . It seems the only way to have things work for the better is the FA actively confronting their core fears and resolving any life trauma you mentioned. She seems to need self healing first before anything else. I definitely notice the fear aspevt. As she can sometimes act extremely rigid around me, or walled up with a really high guard, out of nowhere. And that's not only during deactivation. Alot of what you mentioned unsure describes a lot of behaviors I've seen from her as well. She did say on more then one occasion she really wants to help herself and get therapy for things. I guess the only thing that will determine real change is her ability to get the right help and stick to making the changes she needs to start feeling better and healing whatever stuff is keeping her stuck. |
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Post by serenity on Sept 19, 2019 0:10:23 GMT
For me, I found that accepting that the silences and stonewalling were a result of ``unavoidable dissociation'' served to maintain relationship stability for a very long time, but only up to a point. ``Relationship stability'' in this context was hot and cold cycles, with the cold cycles being a couple of days here and there, rather than weeks or months.
The problems for me came when those same strategies were used to express and deal with conflict. Its hard at first to know the difference, then I became more certain, then I realized he used these strategies as a hurtful power play when what he wanted was unreasonable, or as a substitute for expressing what he wanted (ie avoiding being vulnerable). This escalated quickly into verbal abuse as well.
Stu and Alexandra, did you experience this stonewalling and silent treatment as the default conflict resolution strategy as well? I found it uneccessarily painful and intolerable, and it drew out conflicts way longer than necessary.
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Post by alexandra on Sept 19, 2019 0:30:35 GMT
serenity, no, he'd only do it when triggered by major changes in the relationship, good or bad. But, he also had no real conflict resolution strategies. It was mostly avoidance, but it didn't come up too much because we were very compatible day to day. He'd be very passive / passive-aggressive in expressing displeasure about something. If we were less compatible I'd have realized we couldn't resolve conflict together faster as more would have come up after so long...
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Post by iz42 on Sept 19, 2019 0:45:37 GMT
serenity I've experienced what you're describing with silent treatment as a conflict resolution strategy. Stonewalling was typically how my ex handled any sort of conflict. At times it felt like "punishment" for not agreeing with him or doing what he wanted me to do. I could have been misreading it as punishment (as AP) but I do think at times he did it because he knew how much it bothered me.
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Post by serenity on Sept 19, 2019 1:48:24 GMT
Thank you Alexandra. I feel you, its a slow process to get to know an FA. The poor communication sure does prolong the process, and deepens the disappointment when you start to encounter unresolvable issues. The FA ex I'm still freinds with had a conflict avoiding style like your ex. He was more peaceful, and would dance around issues hoping you'd get the message. He was basically fair minded and could take `no' for an answer. I think my most recent ex is way less fair minded, and prepared to be brutish about getting what he wants. But its taken 15 months for us to have our first conflict, and see this about him.
iz42 I understand your confusion; Its easy to see behaviour that is so painful as malicious, especially when they know it hurts you too. I'm unable to experience trust when I'm being knowingly hurt. I do see it as malicious and abusive. Others might not idk.
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Post by stu on Sept 19, 2019 7:59:23 GMT
For me, I found that accepting that the silences and stonewalling were a result of ``unavoidable dissociation'' served to maintain relationship stability for a very long time, but only up to a point. ``Relationship stability'' in this context was hot and cold cycles, with the cold cycles being a couple of days here and there, rather than weeks or months. The problems for me came when those same strategies were used to express and deal with conflict. Its hard at first to know the difference, then I became more certain, then I realized he used these strategies as a hurtful power play when what he wanted was unreasonable, or as a substitute for expressing what he wanted (ie avoiding being vulnerable). This escalated quickly into verbal abuse as well. Stu and Alexandra, did you experience this stonewalling and silent treatment as the default conflict resolution strategy as well? I found it uneccessarily painful and intolerable, and it drew out conflicts way longer than necessary. Stone walling only happens when they de activated, otherwise we don't really have much issues at all and can communicate perfectly fine. To be honest the only issues over all were just the things happening from the FA behaviors, and then anything I did to react to them on my end as well. Other then that we are very compatible and connect very comfortably together. I've never felt as strong and deep of a connection as I have with this FA but at the same time never been more frustrated and dissappointed that certain behaviors make the relationship being consistent and growing even further stopped in it's tracks. Hardest relationship I've been involved in, but also feels that it could be the most rewarding if things that needed to be addressed finally were. I'm sure although the FA is handling things differently it must feel the same for her too. It doesn't feel like a one sided tape of fantasy, just a geniune raw and real connection. |
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