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Post by stu on Sept 17, 2019 23:55:34 GMT
I liked how in the video, he explained that ``being triggered'' isn't just a bodily sensation, its also accompanied by a very negative and opposing mindset that is tied to the limbic system. I've heard this referred to as `splitting' , where a person loses object constancy and only sees someone as `all bad''. In my experiences, that mindset seems to take longer to shift back to normal for FA's. Days, Weeks, months. You can't get through to them when they are in a `splitting' mindset. They genuinely think you are a threat, the enemy, and their minds will attach to all kinds of reasons to justify that. You're imperfect. You're out to get them, You are this or that. They can get abusive and mean if you start challenging or countering their thinking at that time. But then their mind slowly shifts back to pre-frontal cortex thinking and a lot of the negative stuff fades. So yeah, maybe they are ``just not into you'' when their mindset flips because of the triggered state. Thats probably a fair assessment. But then their mind flips back from `limbic thinking' over a period of time, they come at you with their apologies and excuses that don't make much sense even to them. It exhausting dealing with it. Wondering if they will stay faithful during their many, many triggered times. Dealing with silent treatments, the passive aggressive blows to your self worth, occasional abusive outbursts, and disappearances. Edit: Just saw your post dhali, about your ex girlfreind. In my experiences, DA's and FA's with narcissistic traits are more likely to hold onto negative assessments of others, because it feeds into their defence of using grandiosity and belittling others for `self esteem'. And i'm sorry that happened to you, it really sucks to be treated that way  Splitting and object inconsistency is a strong core trait of BPD. I have been on the receiving end of that before and it was above and beyond what I experienced with the FA. The FA goes silent on me and tries to surpress their feelings and attachment. If she sees me in person during a de activation she will constantly stare at me, and eventually make some excuses to come talk to me too. Maybe because in person it's harder to ignore your feelings /attachment. With a BPD I saw before when they split me black they said really abusive things and had a noticable aversion and negative thinking about me. Until eventually they saw me as all good again and it was as if all they felt before didn't even happen or wasn't acknowledged. I think the FA de activation feels more like supressing feelings and attachment, whereas BPD it's like you don't even exist when you aren't physically with them. And also the splitting is unrecognizable. It's like the most extreme forms of hate and love and will flip flop back and forth. |
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Post by stu on Sept 18, 2019 0:05:10 GMT
alexandra You always have the most thought provoking posts and are always on point. For myself I just feel really frustrated and angry that I was all of a sudden shut out and discarded after not doing anything to be hurtful or cause any issues. Nor acting needy or insecure. Just suddenly and over night a a huge change from being very normal and close with me, and feeling a growing attachment to me from them. She told me not to move across the country for a job offer I had, because she didn't want me to leave. And I could tell everytime I was around her that she had deep feelings for me, probably still does underneath all the avoiding. But still eventuallu she became walled up and stone walled me until eventually radio silence. I tried to talk it out a bit but she never even gave a response several times. I just asked if she even wanted to stop things, or was scared, or didn't want to talk anymore. Whatever it was to just let me know so I don't stay confused about it. I would think as well as we knew each other by now and the bond we created by this point she would respect me enough to at least give me something to either move on or know what was going on with her. In any small way, even. I don't feel abandoned nor am I questioning my self worth. I just felt the grief of losing my connection and relationship with her, the anger of feeling discarded for no reason, and the frustration at having forgiven them and moving past a lot together and then turning around and pretending I don't exist. Whether it's nothing personal or not. Still Sucks and as someone who was fully emotiinally available, feeling the brunt end of the sudden discarding. Like I mentioned to you before i am focusing on moving on and letting things go though. If they ever reach out and are actively working in themselves and can handle things more consistently then I can re evaluate that at that particular time. When and if that ever happens or not.
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Post by alexandra on Sept 18, 2019 0:21:37 GMT
stu, there's always room for mourning, and understanding helps me cope too until my emotions catch up to my logic. No one's going to automatically shut off their emotions in response to being stone-walled, nor should they, but from there it should become about what do I want / deserve before it becomes about a negative spiral that gives the other person too much power over your self-regulation (general you, not you you).
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Post by serenity on Sept 18, 2019 0:34:04 GMT
Splitting and object inconsistency is a strong core trait of BPD. I have been on the receiving end of that before and it was above and beyond what I experienced with the FA. The FA goes silent on me and tries to surpress their feelings and attachment. If she sees me in person during a de activation she will constantly stare at me, and eventually make some excuses to come talk to me too. Maybe because in person it's harder to ignore your feelings /attachment. With a BPD I saw before when they split me black they said really abusive things and had a noticable aversion and negative thinking about me. Until eventually they saw me as all good again and it was as if all they felt before didn't even happen or wasn't acknowledged. I think the FA de activation feels more like supressing feelings and attachment, whereas BPD it's like you don't even exist when you aren't physically with them. And also the splitting is unrecognizable. It's like the most extreme forms of hate and love and will flip flop back and forth. Oh I'm so sorry you experienced that Stu! I feel you; I've dated a guy with full BPD too, and you're right, being on the receiving and of BPD splitting is very different to FA deactivation. I found my BPD ex extremely clingy and much warmer, with more AP style of attachment. I wish i could say my most recent FA ex was just suppressing attached feelings during deactivation too. I just think it might be wishful thinking, more than fact. Going by what he's shared about his relationship history he's more the kind to look for something negative in his partners, something they can't change , usually a small physical flaw. He latches onto this `flaw' when he has his `cold' days and deactivations, but he won't discuss this issue or bring it up, until he finally wants out of the relationship. He'll sit on this `flaw' for years, he's had relationships for up to five years' where he's silently brooded on the imperfections of his loved one. Then he lashes out and shatters the other persons self esteem. He started to date women more and more beautiful, because `physical flaws' were the issue (not him). And when he finally found someone perfectly beautiful who would stay with him, he decided her vagina was flawed, and dumped her for her imperfect vagina. I have normal physical `flaws' too . At first he said he loved them, and gradually started up with snarky passive aggressive put downs. And during the second deactivation, he cruelly attacked my flaws in front of colleagues, humiliating me and making me cry in front of everyone. Sometimes i think his behavior points to vulnerable narcissism, but when he comes back from an episode, he is able to be so accountable and sincerely apologetic, and self aware, I just don't think so. |
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Post by stu on Sept 18, 2019 0:35:08 GMT
stu, there's always room for mourning, and understanding helps me cope too until my emotions catch up to my logic. No one's going to automatically shut off their emotions in response to being stone-walled, nor should they, but from there it should become about what do I want / deserve before it becomes about a negative spiral that gives the other person too much power over your self-regulation (general you, not you you). Definitely , for me what I struggled with before and now. Was what to do in relation to the behavior. My friends kept telling me for months that I kept making excuses for her behavior . And they are in part right. I was trying to find a balance between what I would accept from someone in my life, in general. Vs what I was trying to accommodate due to someone having geniune challenges and finding reasons for their behaviors and saying oh it's the attachment issues and trying to be okay with things I wouldn't normally be okay with, had I not known what is going on. As of now I am no longer talking to her and have no idea if she will ever reach out and know that I won't be able to continue things again unless she was actively working on herself, getting proper help, and was just as committed to making things work. She is self aware and already knows about her attachment challenges, she doesn't project it onto others and takes responsibility of it. But still gets caught up in the same cycles and still has a huge fear of exposing herself completely and working through all of it. I don't ever want to enable someone, but when I genuinely love and care about someone I want to do everything I can to be devoted and see through anything that could take away from a great thing. I want to be compassionate, empathetic, understanding, supportive , and encouraging, but I don't want to be a door mat, taken for granted, taken advantage of, or de valued and discarded. I want to respect my own well being, but also do whatever I can to be there and help make someone else better too. So much conflicted feelings with it all haha |
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Post by dhali on Sept 18, 2019 2:08:43 GMT
stu, there's always room for mourning, and understanding helps me cope too until my emotions catch up to my logic. No one's going to automatically shut off their emotions in response to being stone-walled, nor should they, but from there it should become about what do I want / deserve before it becomes about a negative spiral that gives the other person too much power over your self-regulation (general you, not you you). For sure this. I’ll add that stonewalling is abusive behavior. Serenity- thanks for the note, but I’m ok. I was blessed to have once married a very secure woman who brought me to secure (from anxious). This FA ex triggered some old anxious stuff. But by the time it went down, she was so cowardly that I was fine walking away. Abruptly (sorta mid breakup, because she was so cowardly she couldn’t get it out). No begging. No pleading. Just dead silence after I immediately hung up the phone. As if I never existed. Sure I was a bit of a mess, but she didn’t have to know that! I’m of the bullet dodged mindset now. But I never even knew someone could be like this. It’s blown my mind. I don’t think she’s a narcissist, but I suppose it’s possible. The love bombing is still a head scratcher to me. I’m not gonna lie- I liked that part! It’s the mother of all lead-on’s. |
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Post by tnr9 on Sept 18, 2019 2:26:37 GMT
They're probably not doing it on purpose. If they are, they're not a good partner because their communication and conflict resolution needs work. If you're AP, look inward to deal with this because you can't manage someone else's deactivation, you can only recognize it's an action they're taking but it's not something they are consciously doing to you. But I can’t just look inward..I honestly can’t....there is such a deep need to have some level of influence....because I can tweak myself if I have influence....if I don’t...I can’t even bridge if I don’t because what does that mean? |
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Post by serenity on Sept 18, 2019 3:53:21 GMT
I would think as well as we knew each other by now and the bond we created by this point she would respect me enough to at least give me something to either move on or know what was going on with her. In any small way, even. I don't feel abandoned nor am I questioning my self worth. I just felt the grief of losing my connection and relationship with her, the anger of feeling discarded for no reason, and the frustration at having forgiven them and moving past a lot together and then turning around and pretending I don't exist. Whether it's nothing personal or not. Still Sucks and as someone who was fully emotiinally available, feeling the brunt end of the sudden discarding. Like I mentioned to you before i am focusing on moving on and letting things go though. If they ever reach out and are actively working in themselves and can handle things more consistently then I can re evaluate that at that particular time. When and if that ever happens or not. I guess the sobering thing I'm learning from this forum, is we all have to stay strong, because the likelihood of the circle back is so high. When my ex circled back this time, every part of me wanted him, craved him, desired him. But you just know if you reward brutal abusive discards (like his) and stonewalling with just taking them back, you're hammering nails into your own coffin, showing them its okay to act according to their worst nature. And you know they can do better. Stu if your girl comes back, what kind of specific things would you ask of her this time around, if you were to consider trying again? Therapy? Would you even take a risk on seeing if she could be consistent? Or would you ask for an agreement in words before `waiting and seeing'? |
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Post by dhali on Sept 18, 2019 3:55:42 GMT
That’s right serenity, you teach people how to treat you
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Post by stu on Sept 18, 2019 4:36:31 GMT
I would think as well as we knew each other by now and the bond we created by this point she would respect me enough to at least give me something to either move on or know what was going on with her. In any small way, even. I don't feel abandoned nor am I questioning my self worth. I just felt the grief of losing my connection and relationship with her, the anger of feeling discarded for no reason, and the frustration at having forgiven them and moving past a lot together and then turning around and pretending I don't exist. Whether it's nothing personal or not. Still Sucks and as someone who was fully emotiinally available, feeling the brunt end of the sudden discarding. Like I mentioned to you before i am focusing on moving on and letting things go though. If they ever reach out and are actively working in themselves and can handle things more consistently then I can re evaluate that at that particular time. When and if that ever happens or not. I guess the sobering thing I'm learning from this forum, is we all have to stay strong, because the likelihood of the circle back is so high. When my ex circled back this time, every part of me wanted him, craved him, desired him. But you just know if you reward brutal abusive discards (like his) and stonewalling with just taking them back, you're hammering nails into your own coffin, showing them its okay to act according to their worst nature. And you know they can do better. Stu if your girl comes back, what kind of specific things would you ask of her this time around, if you were to consider trying again? Therapy? Would you even take a risk on seeing if she could be consistent? Or would you ask for an agreement in words before `waiting and seeing'? I certainly wouldn't blindly take her back. I would discuss a lot about her past behavior and how it affects me, more into attachment theory, telling her I don't feel comfortable being in a serious thing together unless she is actively getting help for herself and sticking to it. And how when she just acts on her feelings without changing how it affects others. I would tell her I would be supportive and encouraging as possible to help her work through her own things if there was anything I could do. But rather then saying I want to change and I know I have a problem , taking action and sticking to it. Because having awareness about something and knowing how your actions affect others, and then choosing to ignore it or do nothing. Then you are knowingly doing things that are not okay. Among other things but that's a basic start. And that's if after talking I felt comfortable enough to actually try again. Because at this point I don't even know. I am still very attracted to her in a lot of ways, but I also have a lot of built up anger over many things she did without even talking about it yet. I wouldn't want to try things again and start resenting her either. I don't like the way she acts when her avoiance issues come up because she completely disregards my own well being. Or other things related to all of that. But on the other side the parts of herself that aren't that are really great. I just can't ignore the elephant in the room and say she's so perfect and everything would work perfectly if it wasn't for this one thing... Because that one thing is what is making things unhealthy. The biggest thing for me as well is understanding her mindset. You say anusive discard. I also feel it's very rude and disrespectful to straight up those someone with no explanation. Especially if they treated you respectfully and we're not doing anything harmful. However others say it's a huge avoidance issue and nothing to do with the other person. It isn't done to deliberately hurt the other person. But about their own feelings of wanting to run and hide. If she told me she ran and hid because she was scared and felt like a burden to me, that would be far more easy to work past. Then if she said she didn't want to talk to me and actively ignored me reaching out because she felt I did something hurtful and didn't want to clue me in at all. Differences like that make a huge difference in how I would percieved things and could handle. But I don't know anything at all when she isn't able to communicate whatsoever. |
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Post by stu on Sept 18, 2019 4:49:51 GMT
I certainly wouldn't blindly take her back. I would discuss a lot about her past behavior and how it affects me, more into attachment theory, telling her I don't feel comfortable being in a serious thing together unless she is actively getting help for herself and sticking to it. And how when she just acts on her feelings without changing how it affects others. I would tell her I would be supportive and encouraging as possible to help her work through her own things if there was anything I could do. But rather then saying I want to change and I know I have a problem , taking action and sticking to it. Because having awareness about something and knowing how your actions affect others, and then choosing to ignore it or do nothing. Then you are knowingly doing things that are not okay. Among other things but that's a basic start. And that's if after talking I felt comfortable enough to actually try again. Because at this point I don't even know. I am still very attracted to her in a lot of ways, but I also have a lot of built up anger over many things she did without even talking about it yet. I wouldn't want to try things again and start resenting her either. I don't like the way she acts when her avoiance issues come up because she completely disregards my own well being. Or other things related to all of that. But on the other side the parts of herself that aren't that are really great. I just can't ignore the elephant in the room and say she's so perfect and everything would work perfectly if it wasn't for this one thing... Because that one thing is what is making things unhealthy. I think built up resentment also just leads to built up trust issues and hurt too. Resentment is one of the worst things for a relationship IMO. All very humanly normal in these cases, but it’s hard to work through I think. Agreed. I would need to talk to her about what did affect me and that we never discussed before , to make sure I don't end up building resentment over time. I may not know how to handle other people's stuff all the time. But what I do know extremely well is myself and how I tick. So thankfully I know how to express myself fully and regulate myself to avoid things like that. I want to know and feel that she does actually value me a lot and that I mean a lot to her above all else. Enough that she is willing to take bigger risks like I have done already myself too. |
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Post by serenity on Sept 18, 2019 5:50:40 GMT
I'm on the fence about whether stonewalling from a trauma victim is abuse too. I know for them it feels necessary and its probably intended as a defense. I know that being on the receiving end hurts so very badly. Is there a middle ground? If there is, I don't think accepting it and taking them back every time it is a middle ground.
I wanted to say, that when I said `abusive discard', I mean that my ex verbally abused me as part of his second deactivation, then discarded me, then stonewalled me. Abuse like that crosses a line with me, I have zero tolerance for it. He got a earful from me about it, and he apologised/ explained after a couple of weeks. Your girl has obviously has not crossed that line, so I see the murkiness of the situation.
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Post by stu on Sept 18, 2019 7:10:43 GMT
I'm on the fence about whether stonewalling from a trauma victim is abuse too. I know for them it feels necessary and its probably intended as a defense. I know that being on the receiving end hurts so very badly. Is there a middle ground? If there is, I don't think accepting it and taking them back every time it is a middle ground. I wanted to say, that when I said `abusive discard', I mean that my ex verbally abused me as part of his second deactivation, then discarded me, then stonewalled me. Abuse like that crosses a line with me, I have zero tolerance for it. He got a earful from me about it, and he apologised/ explained after a couple of weeks. Your girl has obviously has not crossed that line, so I see the murkiness of the situation. Personally if I know without a doubt that this was all just a defense mechanism and she's scared and shutting down to avoid conflict then it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. She has never said anything negative to me ever, in the enturs year I've known her actually. But I don't think that's healthy either. Because it might bottle up and come out in other ways she won't tell me. Hence why I feel sometimes she does things passive aggressively. She told me about people she has cut out of her life before and how the only people she never cut out were her closest best friends. Part of me felt she is sending me a message to say I'm cut out now too. And won't give me any explanation or reason. But I have no idea one way or the other because she isn't speaking to me. The last time I saw her In person a week ago, when I was out with friends. People told me she was staring at me the entire time. And she did come up to say hi to me, and tried finding excuses to talk to me again before I left. I kept to myself the whole time though. Didn't try to engage any conversation. I think it's easier for her to ignore me when I'm not around. But anytime I'm physically there she's always trying to get my attention or noticing me one way or the other. Which kind of points to I don't think she's cutting me out. Yet still no explanation for anything either. What that guy did to you is terrible and definitely he does not deserve you whatsoever. Avoidance attachment or not, that is no excuse or reason to be verbally abusive. That's just garbage behavior and I'm glad you are done with them. Things like that always get worse over time too. I had a bpd ex and the amount of verbally and emotiinally abusive things I went through with that was a complete mind fuck and it only escalated over time. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2019 8:51:48 GMT
I'm on the fence about whether stonewalling from a trauma victim is abuse too. I know for them it feels necessary and its probably intended as a defense. I know that being on the receiving end hurts so very badly. Is there a middle ground? If there is, I don't think accepting it and taking them back every time it is a middle ground. I wanted to say, that when I said `abusive discard', I mean that my ex verbally abused me as part of his second deactivation, then discarded me, then stonewalled me. Abuse like that crosses a line with me, I have zero tolerance for it. He got a earful from me about it, and he apologised/ explained after a couple of weeks. Your girl has obviously has not crossed that line, so I see the murkiness of the situation. Personally if I know without a doubt that this was all just a defense mechanism and she's scared and shutting down to avoid conflict then it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. She has never said anything negative to me ever, in the enturs year I've known her actually. But I don't think that's healthy either. Because it might bottle up and come out in other ways she won't tell me. Hence why I feel sometimes she does things passive aggressively. She told me about people she has cut out of her life before and how the only people she never cut out were her closest best friends. Part of me felt she is sending me a message to say I'm cut out now too. And won't give me any explanation or reason. But I have no idea one way or the other because she isn't speaking to me. The last time I saw her In person a week ago, when I was out with friends. People told me she was staring at me the entire time. And she did come up to say hi to me, and tried finding excuses to talk to me again before I left. I kept to myself the whole time though. Didn't try to engage any conversation. I think it's easier for her to ignore me when I'm not around. But anytime I'm physically there she's always trying to get my attention or noticing me one way or the other. Which kind of points to I don't think she's cutting me out. Yet still no explanation for anything either. What that guy did to you is terrible and definitely he does not deserve you whatsoever. Avoidance attachment or not, that is no excuse or reason to be verbally abusive. That's just garbage behavior and I'm glad you are done with them. Things like that always get worse over time too. I had a bpd ex and the amount of verbally and emotiinally abusive things I went through with that was a complete mind fuck and it only escalated over time. Just a thought, FA can't express or know themselves fully, there's even a possibility that they don't know or remember why they left in the first place. Let's say they recovered from their deactivation, they aren't dissociating, they miss you but now what? They know they hurt you, and you'll ask for answers or declarations that they don't have or they can't make. If they regret and recognize it's on them, it puts them in a very vulnerable position. You have to remember that FA doesn't have the high self esteem like DA does. FA can be very self-critical, filled with shame. I think if FA actually respects (fears) you, it will be more difficult to reconnect. You'll have to wait until they miss you enough to risk rejection or until they think you aren't angry and they'll get away with their ghosting. EDIT: Also, if someone experienced trauma, it's probable they use dissociation to cope. It's not pleasant. I've been dissociating on and off for the last 2 weeks, I'm going abroad next week and there's a lot of things I have to do before that, but I don't. There won't be enough time, I know it but I do nothing about it. I'm not stressed. I feel nothing. Time passes, I don't know when. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't remember what I did. I can imagine someone might be in that state and unable to talk. |
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Post by alexandra on Sept 18, 2019 9:18:15 GMT
Totally agree with @unsure (who is FA), which is why I don't think it is necessary to demonize other attachment styles though the angry step of the mourning process does need to be experienced. It isn't easy being any insecure person!
However, in that case, if the FA does the work and gets more secure, they will be able to communicate when they return: that's why it's an important tell whether or not the relationship is worth a second chance or it's just another cycle. Self-awareness, not being mostly driven by fear, words and actions aligned consistently over a period of time. If the FA partner can do that, they're demonstrating that your dynamic together could possibly really change.
I've never experienced that when an FA has come back, and so if I've gone with it, then it repeats. When I was AP, I'd accept the verbal declarations to win me back without demonstrating security because I was insecure too and thought that was a sign of love since it relieved my anxiety.
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