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Post by tnr9 on Oct 22, 2019 13:49:07 GMT
stu , when I read your initial post in this thread I see. whole story about what you think is going on inside of her, mind and emotion reading, assumptions. I also see you pursuing her based on these assumptions. I see you making all the overtures and her responding, but I don't see it the other way around... her coming back. You've been in a venue where you both hang out and you made the steps to reconnect. I see a lot of projection, and story telling. She's responding to you, sure. But is it really her coming back to you, or the other way around? I can see you're confused, and these situations are confusing. But you're really helping build that confusion for both of you. You're an active participant dancing in more ways than one here. And, it's a lot of drama. I will say that I own that I was the one who kept thing going with B....I was the one who reached out and initiated contact,I am the one who made myself, my time and my place available....and I was an enabler for him to stay exactly who he was because I never held a line that required actual change. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2019 14:09:30 GMT
stu , when I read your initial post in this thread I see. whole story about what you think is going on inside of her, mind and emotion reading, assumptions. I also see you pursuing her based on these assumptions. I see you making all the overtures and her responding, but I don't see it the other way around... her coming back. You've been in a venue where you both hang out and you made the steps to reconnect. I see a lot of projection, and story telling. She's responding to you, sure. But is it really her coming back to you, or the other way around? I can see you're confused, and these situations are confusing. But you're really helping build that confusion for both of you. You're an active participant dancing in more ways than one here. And, it's a lot of drama. I will say that I own that I was the one who kept thing going with B....I was the one who reached out and initiated contact,I am the one who made myself, my time and my place available....and I was an enabler for him to stay exactly who he was because I never held a line that required actual change. It looks to me like a lot of AP scenarios play out this way.. they read up on avoidants and create a whole story line about how the avoidant is doing the best they can and just needs to become aware of their attachment style. So, AP reaches out with a lot of projectors, and has a certain perception of the avoidant reaction. They step this way, and that way, in their own dance, while completely focused on the steps the avoidant is or is not taking. They seem to think the avoidant is the one leading but really, it's just a sloppy interaction on both sides, full of emotional unavailability, assumptions, drama, and insecurity. We've all been there in one way or another but I do notice that AP tend to focus on the avoidant to their own detriment. So what if an unavailable person shows interest? That doesn't mean a damn thing. It doesn't mean anything, if they are unavailable...: and available people know that. At least they figure it out pretty quick. This is a game that takes two players. I have enjoyed the videos of Les Carter about narcissism, and he addresses the problem of dishonesty on the part of the narcissists partner- in pleasing,, appeasement, lack of integrity to personal values, etc. It's meant to be empowering , not shaming. It takes two to play these crazy games. |
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Post by tnr9 on Oct 22, 2019 15:47:57 GMT
I will say that I own that I was the one who kept thing going with B....I was the one who reached out and initiated contact,I am the one who made myself, my time and my place available....and I was an enabler for him to stay exactly who he was because I never held a line that required actual change. It looks to me like a lot of AP scenarios play out this way.. they read up on avoidants and create a whole story line about how the avoidant is doing the best they can and just needs to become aware of their attachment style. So, AP reaches out with a lot of projectors, and has a certain perception of the avoidant reaction. They step this way, and that way, in their own dance, while completely focused on the steps the avoidant is or is not taking. They seem to think the avoidant is the one leading but really, it's just a sloppy interaction on both sides, full of emotional unavailability, assumptions, drama, and insecurity. We've all been there in one way or another but I do notice that AP tend to focus on the avoidant to their own detriment. So what if an unavailable person shows interest? That doesn't mean a damn thing. It doesn't mean anything, if they are unavailable...: and available people know that. At least they figure it out pretty quick. This is a game that takes two players. I have enjoyed the videos of Les Carter about narcissism, and he addresses the problem of dishonesty on the part of the narcissists partner- in pleasing,, appeasement, lack of integrity to personal values, etc. It's meant to be empowering , not shaming. It takes two to play these crazy games. As I was reading your reply...the following words came to me....”some is better than none and could lead to more”....as in some love, attention, validation etc. That is the Pavlovian bell for me....it would have been different had I received no attention, no love, no validation....but I did get “some”....only it was not predictable...it came with no rhyme or reason....and because I wanted more....I learned to observe....I learned to take my focus and place it on my mom....”if I do this...maybe she will love me”, “ if I do that, maybe she won’t be angry”...it is a horrible guessing game with projections, hyper focus, people pleasing, co dependent components....and it is only triggered by someone who mirrors the inconsistency I got as a child. It feels normal...even though it does not feel good...and for an unaware AP....it will feel like an all consuming need, like an addiction....and I have told myself the most amazing fairy tales of loving someone without expectation of that love being returned...even as I was denying a huge growing resentment over the contorting I felt I had to do and the disproportionate of “giving” there was. It truly takes a seasoned therapist to say...”But what about you?”...”How were your needs met if you had to contort to earn your parents love?” “How were you ever supposed to find out who you were with the burden of so many labels and so many masks?” I have a long journey ahead of me....but I am glad to be taking some steps to finally honor me. |
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Post by alexandra on Oct 22, 2019 16:53:09 GMT
stu, what a horrible event to have had to witness and be a part of. I'm so sorry. You must have had PTSD and all that comes with that. No wonder you're confused, with that backdrop. I hope you have/had access to some good grief counseling at the very least.
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Post by Nefertiti on Oct 22, 2019 17:51:02 GMT
I will say that I own that I was the one who kept thing going with B....I was the one who reached out and initiated contact,I am the one who made myself, my time and my place available....and I was an enabler for him to stay exactly who he was because I never held a line that required actual change. It looks to me like a lot of AP scenarios play out this way.. they read up on avoidants and create a whole story line about how the avoidant is doing the best they can and just needs to become aware of their attachment style. So, AP reaches out with a lot of projectors, and has a certain perception of the avoidant reaction. They step this way, and that way, in their own dance, while completely focused on the steps the avoidant is or is not taking. They seem to think the avoidant is the one leading but really, it's just a sloppy interaction on both sides, full of emotional unavailability, assumptions, drama, and insecurity. We've all been there in one way or another but I do notice that AP tend to focus on the avoidant to their own detriment. So what if an unavailable person shows interest? That doesn't mean a damn thing. It doesn't mean anything, if they are unavailable...: and available people know that. At least they figure it out pretty quick. This is a game that takes two players. I have enjoyed the videos of Les Carter about narcissism, and he addresses the problem of dishonesty on the part of the narcissists partner- in pleasing,, appeasement, lack of integrity to personal values, etc. It's meant to be empowering , not shaming. It takes two to play these crazy games. All the above would be true if all FAs act the same, or if all relationships involving FAs evolved in the same way. When Stu first posted, it seemed like the usual story. Man meets woman, they have a relationship. One of them has issues, triggers certain responses in their otherwise normal partner and then flakes. And the cycle repeats itself. And I reacted based on this belief. However, Stu just mentioned something different. Not only were they friends before they got together but they also went through a specific tragic episode. This episode bonded them. Bonded a whole group of people who to this day still get together. So now we have three bonds. A friendship, a tragedy (and as a result a group of friends) and a romantic relationship. In trying to disentangle himself from the romantic relationship, going NC (the standard way of doing things) would break, or at least affect, the other bonds. Life doesn't quite work like that. Breaking one bond is hard enough. Breaking two or even three simultaneously is nigh impossible. And this, I believe, has nothing to do with being an AP. I get why he needs to resolve this in a non-NC way. I get why he is surprised that his FA ignored him twice (I think) and then came back. I even get why his FA came back and before that even acknowledged her bad actions (quite un-FA-ish). She has more reasons to do so than just romantic ones. So it is complicated. Maybe I am projecting. As a Secure/FA hybrid, that is. I have more bonds with my FA than just the romantic relationship. So NC is not an option. The more I read Stu's posts, the more I think that he should be open to engaging her in a limited way. This is exactly what he is proposing. As for his feelings for her, they still exist. He shouldn't deny that. But he can control them knowing that going down the road of a relationship will only hurt him more. |
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Post by alexandra on Oct 22, 2019 19:05:40 GMT
stu, have you looked into trauma bonding much? There's definitely discussions about it in other threads on here. A lot of the AP I was picking up on is for the reasons @inmourning said, but I think putting the focus back on you, the information surrounding that type of bond may be a good next topic to dig into. There's an attachment layer happening too, but the presence of trauma bonding here sounds more intense than even the usual.
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Post by serenity on Oct 22, 2019 20:46:12 GMT
The labelling of any partner experiencing Anxiety and trauma as a result of their partners behaviour as `AP' sometimes feels frustrating to me. Many of these `AP' forum members have taken tests are have tested secure or FA, and have previously experienced long secure marriages and LTR's.
Feeling anxious because of a partner's inconsistency or a trauma bond is not how `AP' attachment style is defined. The anxiety is due to the dynamic of experiencing many months of consistency during a honeymoon period , followed by a sudden relationship end (or discard), then intermittent positive-negative reinforcement . That is a scientifically documented reaction to the dynamic itself called `Pavolvian behaviour' or 'operant conditioning' . It affects both human beings and complex animals in the same way. Undoing a trauma bond is extremely difficult for anyone.
My doctor says to me, anxiety is our body's internal warning signal, that something isn't safe. The next logical step for dealing with the warning is to assess the reality of the risk, explore its nature, and make decisions that enable self protection. This is what Stu and many other partners of inconsistent people do here. They explore their anxiety, make a risk assessment, so they can choose their behaviour.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2019 21:06:15 GMT
stu , have you looked into trauma bonding much? There's definitely discussions about it in other threads on here. A lot of the AP I was picking up on is for the reasons @inmourning said, but I think putting the focus back on you, the information surrounding that type of bond may be a good next topic to dig into. There's an attachment layer happening too, but the presence of trauma bonding here sounds more intense than even the usual. It's a very poignant situation with the additional trauma. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2019 21:39:14 GMT
It looks to me like a lot of AP scenarios play out this way.. they read up on avoidants and create a whole story line about how the avoidant is doing the best they can and just needs to become aware of their attachment style. So, AP reaches out with a lot of projectors, and has a certain perception of the avoidant reaction. They step this way, and that way, in their own dance, while completely focused on the steps the avoidant is or is not taking. They seem to think the avoidant is the one leading but really, it's just a sloppy interaction on both sides, full of emotional unavailability, assumptions, drama, and insecurity. We've all been there in one way or another but I do notice that AP tend to focus on the avoidant to their own detriment. So what if an unavailable person shows interest? That doesn't mean a damn thing. It doesn't mean anything, if they are unavailable...: and available people know that. At least they figure it out pretty quick. This is a game that takes two players. I have enjoyed the videos of Les Carter about narcissism, and he addresses the problem of dishonesty on the part of the narcissists partner- in pleasing,, appeasement, lack of integrity to personal values, etc. It's meant to be empowering , not shaming. It takes two to play these crazy games. All the above would be true if all FAs act the same, or if all relationships involving FAs evolved in the same way. When Stu first posted, it seemed like the usual story. Man meets woman, they have a relationship. One of them has issues, triggers certain responses in their otherwise normal partner and then flakes. And the cycle repeats itself. And I reacted based on this belief. However, Stu just mentioned something different. Not only were they friends before they got together but they also went through a specific tragic episode. This episode bonded them. Bonded a whole group of people who to this day still get together. So now we have three bonds. A friendship, a tragedy (and as a result a group of friends) and a romantic relationship. In trying to disentangle himself from the romantic relationship, going NC (the standard way of doing things) would break, or at least affect, the other bonds. Life doesn't quite work like that. Breaking one bond is hard enough. Breaking two or even three simultaneously is nigh impossible. And this, I believe, has nothing to do with being an AP. I get why he needs to resolve this in a non-NC way. I get why he is surprised that his FA ignored him twice (I think) and then came back. I even get why his FA came back and before that even acknowledged her bad actions (quite un-FA-ish). She has more reasons to do so than just romantic ones. So it is complicated. Maybe I am projecting. As a Secure/FA hybrid, that is. I have more bonds with my FA than just the romantic relationship. So NC is not an option. The more I read Stu's posts, the more I think that he should be open to engaging her in a limited way. This is exactly what he is proposing. As for his feelings for her, they still exist. He shouldn't deny that. But he can control them knowing that going down the road of a relationship will only hurt him more. I didn't mention anything about NC one way or the other or how he should or shouldn't engage. I'm questioning the narrative of "she came back" based on his initiation of contact and assumptions he has made about her feeling states , only based on what he shared. He seems to be the one in pursuit from my view, is all. And, it is something I've seen here before, with one partner reaching out to an avoidant in spite of instances of ghosting or silent treatments. Just an observable pattern here is all. |
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Post by iz42 on Oct 22, 2019 21:40:53 GMT
serenity, in that case, how would you define AP attachment style?
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Post by serenity on Oct 22, 2019 22:27:42 GMT
Good question! As far as I have read, Anxious preoccupied attachment style is defined mainly in terms of specific compulsive behaviours ..... clinging, pushing, desperation, demanding, protest, controlling etc. The underlying feeling may be anxiety, but its also the underlying feeling behind FA/DA attachment styles. Its the behaviour that defines the attachment style, not whats underneath.
Anxiety can also be a perfectly reasonable response to an unsafe situation, rather than only a childhood trigger.
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Post by serenity on Oct 22, 2019 22:47:59 GMT
I didn't mention anything about NC one way or the other or how he should or shouldn't engage. I'm questioning the narrative of "she came back" based on his initiation of contact and assumptions he has made about her feeling states , only based on what he shared. He seems to be the one in pursuit from my view, is all. And, it is something I've seen here before, with one partner reaching out to an avoidant in spite of instances of ghosting or silent treatments. Just an observable pattern here is all. I agree with you, and I'm glad that you and Alexandra have brought up the possibility of a trauma bond having formed in this situation as well. There can be a huge amount of cognitive dissonance to wade through when trying to undo a trauma bond, and i think the posters on this thread have been very good at challenging Stu with that. I see it as well. |
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Post by alexandra on Oct 22, 2019 23:05:19 GMT
Good question! As far as I have read, Anxious preoccupied attachment style is defined mainly in terms of specific compulsive behaviours ..... clinging, pushing, desperation, demanding, protest, controlling etc. The underlying feeling may be anxiety, but its also the underlying feeling behind FA/DA attachment styles. Its the behaviour that defines the attachment style, not whats underneath. Anxiety can also be a perfectly reasonable response to an unsafe situation, rather than only a childhood trigger. This is only some of the outward facing behaviors, it isn't what defines it. AP is an overactive conditioning of the nervous system in the face of stress that represents an inability to self-regulate emotions, a high fear of abandonment, and leaning on external validation due to a poor sense of self / insecurities / poor sense of self-acceptance, but at the same time there's low avoidance present (so it's not the same as FA). I think we sometimes shortcut on the board by saying AP when we mean anxiety. And anxiety as a response to an unsafe situation is a healthy thing. The difference between this in a more secure individual versus someone with an AP or FA style is a secure will feel this directly related to a situation and will feel and assess the emotion and figure out what to do with it. An insecure style person may feel anxiety that has nothing at all to do with the situation in front of them, because it's projections from earlier in life, but since that's not intuitive and they don't understand the anxiety, where it's coming from, or what to do with it, they don't have a healthy set of tools in discerning what the emotions are telling them and how to respond. |
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Post by faithopelove on Oct 22, 2019 23:29:15 GMT
Good question! As far as I have read, Anxious preoccupied attachment style is defined mainly in terms of specific compulsive behaviours ..... clinging, pushing, desperation, demanding, protest, controlling etc. The underlying feeling may be anxiety, but its also the underlying feeling behind FA/DA attachment styles. Its the behaviour that defines the attachment style, not whats underneath. Anxiety can also be a perfectly reasonable response to an unsafe situation, rather than only a childhood trigger. This is only some of the outward facing behaviors, it isn't what defines it. AP is an overactive conditioning of the nervous system in the face of stress that represents an inability to self-regulate emotions, a high fear of abandonment, and leaning on external validation due to a poor sense of self / insecurities / poor sense of self-acceptance, but at the same time there's low avoidance present (so it's not the same as FA). I think we sometimes shortcut on the board by saying AP when we mean anxiety. And anxiety as a response to an unsafe situation is a healthy thing. The difference between this in a more secure individual versus someone with an AP or FA style is a secure will feel this directly related to a situation and will feel and assess the emotion and figure out what to do with it. An insecure style person may feel anxiety that has nothing at all to do with the situation in front of them, because it's projections from earlier in life, but since that's not intuitive and they don't understand the anxiety, where it's coming from, or what to do with it, they don't have a healthy set of tools in discerning what the emotions are telling them and how to respond. - “overacting conditioning of the nervous system” That is so accurate to me. Words to the feeling. I suppose when my nervous system is being hijacked it’s helpful to tell myself this- of course that’s also a catch 22 because when my nervous system is overacting it’s so hard to slow down, stop and regain composure. Isn’t it? I forget logic at that point. It doesn’t happen often but when it does it’s like an automatic reflex. |
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Post by stu on Oct 22, 2019 23:29:50 GMT
Thanks so much for all the replies again, I don't really feel a need to dwelve into what I would consider AP vs non AP behaviors and such. But I will say I have not really ever felt the need to really on a partner for external validation, nor do I experience a poor sense of self, negative view of my self, low self esteem, and other things of that nature. I also have been involved in meditation and mindfulness for many years so any intense emotions I feel, I just let them be and feel them all fully. I have not had major attachment issues in other relationships and was capable of healthy relationships before this current situation as well. The FA used to stress me out with their behaviors being so inconsistent but with understanding of what was going on now, I no longer experience much pull from any of that.
Another poster mentioned they feel I am pursuing her and that I am projecting how she is or could be feeling, but I've mentioned several times I have no idea how she is feeling or whats on her mind unless we talked together, all I have to go off is recent behavior. I did mention I asked her to dance a couple times, but beyond that any other engagement was started by her. I am not trying to win her back or get back with her right now. I don't feel its a smart idea unless she opened up to me directly stating she wanted to work on things, and that she was was trying to work on herself as well. Rather then just forgoing any kind of talking and just falling back into the same pattern again. I am doing the same for myself as well so this isn't about placing blame or all the focus on her either. That's all there is to it about engaging in any kind of romantic relationship with her again. Other then that as it stands now she is just someone I see sometimes when I am out, that I have a long history with and a lingering attachment and attraction to.
I have a hard time with a lot of things right now and a lot of my relationships have taken a turn to a really bad place lately, over all. I am confused over many things I have recently witnessed as well. I had a brother who was a drug addict for over 10 years who finally bounced back into recovery, but not before my entire family ripped themselves apart through the entire experience. I was staying with parents for a short bit recently but was thrown out and accused of being the sole source of my mom's PTSD issues (from brothers drug abuse). Said I was the reason she was having a mental break down, and then become emotionally and verbally abusive towards me. But blamed me and said I was being an abusive and horrible person to her, and that im terrible, a fuck up, and mentally disabled. My dad is also completely emotionally unavailable and is one of the most callous people I have ever known, also tried to force me to get on medication in exchange for giving me a place to stay to get back on my feet after losing a job due to lay off recently, he thinks I have an anxiety disorder that can only be treated with medication.
He has no sense of boundaries or my own sense of autonomy and tries to enforce complete control over me and both my parents are over all very emotionally stunted individuals. I have been homeless living out of my car, but working full time along the way over the past month due to being thrown out and not having enough money saved up at the time to afford a security deposit and first months rent somewhere, until this week actually. Had medical bills I had to pay and other bills I had to catch up on after getting layed off from my last job and it was a really messed up situation for me. I had friends I became close with recently who completely flipped a switch on me because of their own issues and started telling me I am a shit person. Because I did not do certain things for them they felt obligated I should. After the last couple years having some other friends completely throw me under the bus and screw me over. I generally saw a really bad side to people recently that made me more avoidant myself.
The FA I was seeing has never been nasty or malicious towards me, she only gets periods where she goes silent and gets de activated and the like. But we never had a very toxic dynamic and no abuse going on at all. I don't hold any resentments towards anyone and generally have a positive view of myself, others, and the world. But the recent mass shooting I survived really messed with my head. Losing so many people I personally knew and saw every week I came into that bar. And the bigger mind fuck for me was that the person who did the mass shooting was an old high school friend of mine. I was on the news with Anderson Cooper about the whole event over a year ago. My real name is not Stu. I am in a complete disarray lately over many, many, things. And all I am focused on is healing and re centering myself. Although over all I am generally pretty calm and feel relaxed most days. when it comes to my relationships with other people lately there is a lot of chaos and now the resulting hang ups I am having within myself over experiencing many bad back to back experiences. The relationship I have with my FA is the least of my actual worries right now. And if there is one thing my parents taught me it is that I want to make sure I never end up the same exact way.
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