|
|
Post by happyidiot on Oct 31, 2019 0:20:48 GMT
Because ultimately the reasons the relationships don't work for FAs aren't related to the partner. Not meaning that no one is triggering or butting heads with FAs and a non-FA partner is always perfect, not by any means. But meaning that eventually, the FA is going to face life stress or something jostling and is going to project that onto the relationship no matter how "perfect" the partner is. Insecurely attachment styled people generally don't have good coping mechanisms and skills to deal with and release stress in a healthy way, no matter which insecure type. When the FA gets overwhelmed, they often push away what's close. You can have a relationship work for a while if it's a decent relationship and other stress in the FA partner's life is manageable. But at some point, someone's going to get sick or have money issues or worry about job security or have children or even just doubt themselves, and that fine balance will snap for the person who doesn't have an organized way of dealing with challenges and who has a nervous system that oscillates between being hyperactive overwhelmed and shutting down. If a relationship is mostly stable and going well but the FA still freezes and runs for a reason like that, they may try to come back when the stressors have diminished, but what's happened to trust during that episode? If the partner who was left is healthy, it diminishes as well. If an FA wants to jump in because I'm over-generalizing, please do. But I think what's missing here is the FA is often fighting a war with themselves, especially if they are aware, and without a lot of healing that's going to make a longer term relationship difficult. It's not an issue of finding middle ground, because middle ground doesn't repair what's actually wrong. I think you are correct. I'm a relatively "subtle" FA, and I still ended up leaving my long-term secure partner after I went through a period of incredible stress and severe illness (and that was back when I'd never heard of attachment theory). And as you know I was recently on the receiving end of almost total deactivation from my most recent serious partner, brought on by his outside stressors (and exacerbated by me acting anxious in response to him being cold and distant). I do think it makes a massive difference if someone is aware. When I deactivated from him a while back because I was sick and stressed, it didn't last very long and I knew enough to keep communicating lovingly with him and not freak out and dump him. I attribute this to the fact that I usually understand what is going on with me now and understand that it's not necessarily my partner's fault, and I have developed some skills to recover from it. I was scared, but I came on here and talked about the deactivated feelings and didn't just follow the rabbit hole of deactivation. But him... he doesn't seem to have enough insight into what is going on with him, he just sees me as the enemy right now. And yes, it makes it incredibly hard to trust him if he eventually comes back, now that I know he is capable of completely shutting me out and ignoring me. I can't swear that I won't eventually full-on snap ever again, but I really think the more I understand my attachment issues the less likely that is, even if I'm not secure yet. At least I really hope I'm not forever doomed to either have avoidants dump me or dump people myself. Sometimes I just think it would be better if I went full DA and stopped caring about having a relationship, because it's the caring and the wanting one and the getting attached to people that causes me pain. |
|
|
|
Post by happyidiot on Oct 31, 2019 0:24:53 GMT
Not all FAs are exactly the same. I'm happy some people realize this. |
|
|
|
Post by nyc718 on Oct 31, 2019 0:26:01 GMT
I've also read articles that say this kind of relationship can last years, if the person who is with the FA can handle the periods of deactivation. Now, whether they are happy or not, it didn't talk about that! But the articles did say this can go on for many, many years. I think knowledge is definitely power, and if you are a person who has a certain resilience, you can handle things that someone else might not able to. For example, my niece and nephew both have special needs, and one is on one end of the spectrum, the other on the other end of the spectrum. My sister is a VERY strong person, because she can handle it. Myself, I could never do as good a job as she does handling that every day, all day. HOWEVER, me knowing that my niece and nephew have these needs allows me to understand that they need to be spoken to and handled a certain way. That's how I think of my current FA. He needs to be handled a bit differently, and I (currently) have the capacity to deal with it. Someone else might not feel their FA and their ways is something they want to accommodate. You don’t know what he’s doing when he’s distancing himself from you. Would you tolerate him going back and forth between you and another woman? Having kids with someone who disappears is also troublesome and complicated. What if you get really sick? Lose your job? What about when you get old? While it IS entirely possible for my FA to be with other women while deactivating, I also know he's kind of sensitive about being touched by people he doesn't feel comfortable with. So while it IS entirely possible that that sensitivity could be somehow put aside for another woman while he is deactivating, if i know him better, it is not probable. In the beginning of our relationship, way before I knew anything about FA at all, I made it clear that I was looking for a monogamous and committed relationship. I said I wasn't saying that it meant that he was the person that I was going to have that relationship with, as I was just getting to know him, but he knew what I wanted. We had a few issues in the beginning when I saw that he was still on a dating app, but he got rid of it because I literally walked away when I saw that. He tried stopping me on the street from leaving and I was like nope, you aren't respecting what I told you I want so I'm out. So it's not like I've never shown him any boundaries or what isn't acceptable to me. Also, he knew that if he was going to date others, then so was I, and he didn't want that. As far as get really sick or lose my job or getting old, I don't think of him in that way. Perhaps it's because I myself am not really conventional like that. We don't live together, nor do I want to. I am happy with my own space and I love that he has his space. I am not interested in the day to day with someone because for me, that kills the romance. I know not everyone feels this way, and I don't judge how anyone else wants to be with their partner, but I am pretty independent. And if I lose my job, I was never thinking I would turn to him in that way. If anything, he is the one in a position that if he loses his job, he would be way more fucked than I would and he would need me more. I have family that I know would take care of me if I got sick, especially my sister, who is naturally a care taker. So since he is FA with limitations, I am especially not thinking of him that way. I know other people look for partners and those are some of the many things that are important to them. For me, I have family and a good network around me, so I wasn't even thinking about him in those way. |
|
|
|
Post by nyc718 on Oct 31, 2019 0:26:43 GMT
My current FA will deactivate, but he doesn't do behaviors that make me otherwise insecure, like imply there are other women, or get drunk (he's not a drinker) or anything else. He just withdraws. I can handle that if he actually needs the space and then comes back, which he currently is now. (I have not fully embraced him back yet, as I feel like he needs to definitely feel some of the consequences of shutting down, but I am not going to shame him or otherwise punish him. That's not a healthy way to approach it that will be received well.) My current FA has been able to open up and allow me in way more than my ex FA. So it really depends on where the FA in your life is. How do you know what he is doing? You haven’t had a conversation with him about him disappearing for two months yet. You have no idea! It’s a well known distancing technique to involve other women/men. Do you want to take that chance? Stu’s FA was younger. But that’s actually rare on here from what I can tell. Most on here are “mature.” I just addressed this in another question about that, you can read it there. |
|
|
|
Post by happyidiot on Oct 31, 2019 0:33:39 GMT
How do you know what he is doing? You haven’t had a conversation with him about him disappearing for two months yet. You have no idea! It’s a well known distancing technique to involve other women/men. Do you want to take that chance? How do you know what anyone is doing ever? They're going to have to be out of your sight at some point. Anyone could cheat on you any time. My ex who I believe to be AP cheated on me repeatedly. I, an FA, strictly do not cheat and it's perfectly possible to be an FA, even one who severely withdraws at times, and be absolutely against cheating–I know others personally. It's totally possible to have a secure person that you live in the same house with cheat on you. I've known secure men who regularly cheated on their wives for years. In any relationship you are ALWAYS taking the chance that someone could cheat on you. |
|
|
|
Post by happyidiot on Oct 31, 2019 0:37:44 GMT
I know what you’re saying. But there’s still pain there in the DA. Because even a DA is a human being with a beating heart. I don't know, the most DA person I know doesn't get any conscious pain from it, because he never has any conscious desire for a relationship at all and doesn't even date. He says he thinks there is nothing wrong with it at all. He argues it's not in fact a maladaptation and it's only our society that thinks it's harmful to not have romantic relationships. |
|
|
|
Post by nyc718 on Oct 31, 2019 0:41:39 GMT
While it IS entirely possible for my FA to be with other women while deactivating, I also know he's kind of sensitive about being touched by people he doesn't feel comfortable with. So while it IS entirely possible that that sensitivity could be somehow put aside for another woman while he is deactivating, if i know him better, it is not probable. In the beginning of our relationship, way before I knew anything about FA at all, I made it clear that I was looking for a monogamous and committed relationship. I said I wasn't saying that it meant that he was the person that I was going to have that relationship with, as I was just getting to know him, but he knew what I wanted. We had a few issues in the beginning when I saw that he was still on a dating app, but he got rid of it because I literally walked away when I saw that. He tried stopping me on the street from leaving and I was like nope, you aren't respecting what I told you I want so I'm out. So it's not like I've never shown him any boundaries or what isn't acceptable to me. Also, he knew that if he was going to date others, then so was I, and he didn't want that. As far as get really sick or lose my job or getting old, I don't think of him in that way. Perhaps it's because I myself am not really conventional like that. We don't live together, nor do I want to. I am happy with my own space and I love that he has his space. I am not interested in the day to day with someone because for me, that kills the romance. I know not everyone feels this way, and I don't judge how anyone else wants to be with their partner, but I am pretty independent. And if I lose my job, I was never thinking I would turn to him in that way. If anything, he is the one in a position that if he loses his job, he would be way more fucked than I would and he would need me more. I have family that I know would take care of me if I got sick, especially my sister, who is naturally a care taker. So since he is FA with limitations, I am especially not thinking of him that way. I know other people look for partners and those are some of the many things that are important to them. For me, I have family and a good network around me, so I wasn't even thinking about him in those way. I get that. I’m unconventional myself and prefer to keep a lot separate. But I do practically think about getting old. You just don’t know what’s going to happen. It’s wise to have someone who has your back. So what is partnership to you? I honestly wasn't thinking of if he will be there for me when I get old. While I would love for this relationship to last forever if it's good, there is no guarantee. Your spouse could die before you or otherwise become disabled and unable to take care of you anyway. I am more consumed with how to have a functioning relationship NOW! And if we can weather the current pits and minefields, THEN perhaps I can think of the future like that! I mean if you don't end up meeting anyone, you might be alone anyway, right? Why not try to work it out with the one you have now first? If relationships were easy, everyone would be happy and there would be no forum or attachment issues ;-) |
|
|
|
Post by nyc718 on Oct 31, 2019 0:45:54 GMT
Follow up to last post...are you looking for a partner? Maybe I used the wrong word because that’s the word I use for myself. I’d never consider someone I say has limitations as a partner. Well, considering no one is perfect, I guess I am more flexible in that way. I certainly am not perfect, but that doesn't mean I can't be a good partner. He's not perfect, but if he gives me as much as he is capable of with good intentions, then I am happy with that. I am not a co-dependent person. I know this because I absolutely used to be. I am proud of the life I have built and the work I have done to get here, and I am not about to throw it away and become dependent on a man to somehow "complete" me. I want a man who compliments my life and adds to my life, not complete my life. That implies I am not complete if I'm not with a man, and I don't feel that way. |
|
|
|
Post by nyc718 on Oct 31, 2019 2:29:33 GMT
Why not try to work it out with the one you have now first? If relationships were easy, everyone would be happy and there would be no forum or attachment issues ;-) That’s an illogical conclusion. Not everyone who works at a relationship has attachment issues or needs to go on a forum or even needs therapy or counseling. This is a very specialized place and issue. Any why not work what out exactly? What relationship? I didn’t think there was one but I genuinely am thinking maybe I missed that there was commitment because I believe, if I recall, there was a bit of time that you’ve been engaged with him. Any why not work out whatever it is? Because a lack of respect. That was kind of a tongue in cheek comment, you didn't get that? And I will disagree, I think unless you and your partner are completely secure, most couple could absolutely benefit from counseling.. You're asking me what to work out....in a relationship? Is that a trick question? Work out the things that would make the relationship as functional as possible. I have been in an exclusive relationship with my FA for a while. And as far as lack of respect, if he's deactivating, he wasn't just dodging me for the fun of it, he was...deactivating.... |
|
|
|
Post by nyc718 on Oct 31, 2019 2:30:15 GMT
Well, considering no one is perfect, I guess I am more flexible in that way. I certainly am not perfect, but that doesn't mean I can't be a good partner. He's not perfect, but if he gives me as much as he is capable of with good intentions, then I am happy with that. I am not a co-dependent person. I know this because I absolutely used to be. I am proud of the life I have built and the work I have done to get here, and I am not about to throw it away and become dependent on a man to somehow "complete" me. I want a man who compliments my life and adds to my life, not complete my life. That implies I am not complete if I'm not with a man, and I don't feel that way. I dated a codependent one who made my life miserable. After him is when I suddenly “found” all of these emotionally unavailable men interested in me. I started to see a pattern in myself. Do you think that could relate to you? I personally felt so smothered by him and his demands that I then highly appreciated someone who wasn’t controlling. Could what be me? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 2:32:02 GMT
I think that intermittent reinforcement has a negative impact on most people, It can be very disorienting. I've noticed that an issue here is that there has been vacillation between anxious and unhappy states with hopeful and optimistic states. nyc718, your posting history has contained enough distress that others here responded with information about the negative impacts of ghosting, and distancing. A month ago you posted a thread with the title something like "I think we are both FA/AP" indicating that the struggle was difficult but you were trying to navigate it, and weren't sure what to do. When you came back this last week, you also expressed distress that he was deactivating and had disappeared a bit with little more than a two word text, or something, and then after a light exchange three days had passed and you had posted that you knew you couldn't continue with things like this. Something to that effect. You love him but you knew he couldn't give you what you need. It seems that feeling has passed and you've resolved the needs he can't meet, within yourself. So, the vacillation is understandable but also probably why you've gotten a lot of advice to recognize the potential harm to you. It seems though, that you have come to a better place after some contact with him, and are prepared for the effort, come what may. Perhaps the optimism and hope and any renewed efforts you can make will outweigh the anxiety and distress that was enough to make you feel that you had been triggered to FA/AP yourself. You'll never know until you try, and no one can or should make that decision for you. Best of luck! |
|
|
|
Post by nyc718 on Oct 31, 2019 2:42:05 GMT
I think that intermittent reinforcement has a negative impact on most people, It can be very disorienting. I've noticed that an issue here is that there has been vacillation between anxious and unhappy states with hopeful and optimistic states. nyc718 , your posting history has contained enough distress that others here responded with information about the negative impacts of ghosting, and distancing. A month ago you posted a thread with the title something like "I think we are both FA/AP" indicating that the struggle was difficult but you were trying to navigate it, and weren't sure what to do. When you came back this last week, you also expressed distress that he was deactivating and had disappeared a bit with little more than a two word text, or something, and then after a light exchange three days had passed and you had posted that you knew you couldn't continue with things like this. Something to that effect. You love him but you knew he couldn't give you what you need. It seems that feeling has passed and you've resolved the needs he can't meet, within yourself. So, the vacillation is understandable but also probably why you've gotten a lot of advice to recognize the potential harm to you. It seems though, that you have come to a better place after some contact with him, and are prepared for the effort, come what may. Perhaps the optimism and hope and any renewed efforts you can make will outweigh the anxiety and distress that was enough to make you feel that you had been triggered to FA/AP yourself. You'll never know until you try, and no one can or should make that decision for you. Best of luck! Well, I am a human who is in touch with my emotions, so I do allow myself to feel all of them! Of course I was distressed, but I was in a very different place than when I first realized he was FA months ago. I have thought a LOT about what's going on these past few weeks, and I see how he is behaving even as of yesterday and today, things I haven't shared on this board, but I have shared with some who have DM'd me and we have our own conversations about what we have in common. It's not really until situations come up that I think so hard about all this. When things are going smoothly, the last thing I'm thinking about is anyone's attachment style, but since this has been what's going on in the past two weeks, I came to the place that I know people understand. It's been very helpful for me, and I hope that my input has been helpful for some as well. Sharing experiences has always been helpful to me, from both ends. I would think that we should all want to continue growing, even if we have setbacks from time to time. We are human after all. |
|
|
|
Post by stu on Oct 31, 2019 3:21:36 GMT
I think that intermittent reinforcement has a negative impact on most people, It can be very disorienting. I've noticed that an issue here is that there has been vacillation between anxious and unhappy states with hopeful and optimistic states. nyc718 , your posting history has contained enough distress that others here responded with information about the negative impacts of ghosting, and distancing. A month ago you posted a thread with the title something like "I think we are both FA/AP" indicating that the struggle was difficult but you were trying to navigate it, and weren't sure what to do. When you came back this last week, you also expressed distress that he was deactivating and had disappeared a bit with little more than a two word text, or something, and then after a light exchange three days had passed and you had posted that you knew you couldn't continue with things like this. Something to that effect. You love him but you knew he couldn't give you what you need. It seems that feeling has passed and you've resolved the needs he can't meet, within yourself. So, the vacillation is understandable but also probably why you've gotten a lot of advice to recognize the potential harm to you. It seems though, that you have come to a better place after some contact with him, and are prepared for the effort, come what may. Perhaps the optimism and hope and any renewed efforts you can make will outweigh the anxiety and distress that was enough to make you feel that you had been triggered to FA/AP yourself. You'll never know until you try, and no one can or should make that decision for you. Best of luck! Well, I am a human who is in touch with my emotions, so I do allow myself to feel all of them! Of course I was distressed, but I was in a very different place than when I first realized he was FA months ago. I have thought a LOT about what's going on these past few weeks, and I see how he is behaving even as of yesterday and today, things I haven't shared on this board, but I have shared with some who have DM'd me and we have our own conversations about what we have in common. It's not really until situations come up that I think so hard about all this. When things are going smoothly, the last thing I'm thinking about is anyone's attachment style, but since this has been what's going on in the past two weeks, I came to the place that I know people understand. It's been very helpful for me, and I hope that my input has been helpful for some as well. Sharing experiences has always been helpful to me, from both ends. I would think that we should all want to continue growing, even if we have setbacks from time to time. We are human after all. I'm really rooting for for you and hope it all turns out for the best. I can see why you want to take the risks like I did as well. And I don't think every Fa is going to be as damaging as the one I saw. I really hope to hear great things about your experience and in the least if it doesn't work out the personal growth and strength you'll have going through it! I want to see at least a couple people having a happy ending for once though haha |
|
|
|
Post by stu on Oct 31, 2019 3:35:37 GMT
These are great points and you guys are making a lot of sense with everything here. But I just wonder why someone would want to deal with this ? I mean in the case I dealt with recently distancing strategies meant bringing other males into the picture and having one foot out of the relationship in that kind of way. Without ever being upfront about it, and then de activation meant being ghosted and then no idea what's going on to them dating someone new. While I sat there feeling like shell come back around soon and we can talk when she's ready. Wasting even more time of my life with that. Maybe it's different in that not all Fas will introduce other people into the picture to get needs met when they are distancing or de activated from you. But how are you supposed to have a serious committed monogomous relationship with someone who is simply incapable of doing it? Unless someone is extremely self aware and already having done a lot of self work. But even with a degree of awareness and some work. These patterns can be so strong and so ingrained that they might just fall back into it unconsciously again. Maybe i just had my trust broken too hard and dealt with a particularly bad at experience with it. But it seems my experience has also been the norm for many others as well. It's fine if you stay detached and never get too close maybe as a casual thing. With periods of time acting more like a couple too but at the same time attachments grow, expectations and needs change, and your ability to be available for other people that might be a healthier fit also goes out the window when you develop that stronger pair bonding with an FA too. I just don't see any case of how it can really work in a serious context unless the other person is extremely self aware and already in some kind of therapy and consistently working on their challenges. That's a good question stu Not all FAs are exactly the same. My current FA is different from my ex FA in that my ex FA was far more along the end of the spectrum that would self sabotage a relationship. My current FA will deactivate, but he doesn't do behaviors that make me otherwise insecure, like imply there are other women, or get drunk (he's not a drinker) or anything else. He just withdraws. I can handle that if he actually needs the space and then comes back, which he currently is now. (I have not fully embraced him back yet, as I feel like he needs to definitely feel some of the consequences of shutting down, but I am not going to shame him or otherwise punish him. That's not a healthy way to approach it that will be received well.) My current FA has been able to open up and allow me in way more than my ex FA. So it really depends on where the FA in your life is. Also, maturity as a person seems to weigh a lot. From what I understand, your ex is still kind of young. When I was that age, I was so not self aware of much. I know you're not much older than her, but you are more mature and more developed than she is (and a lot more than a lot of much older men than you, I know this!) Thanks I appreciate the praise haha , yes I agree each person is different I don't think every acoidantly attached person is going to cheat. I just think during long de activations when you're completely separated you don't really know what's going on and I didn't think my ex was going to move on to someone else, while never saying a word to me about anything again before hand. Just out of a sense of basic respect and me being who I was in her life. I don't think you would feel a desire to punish or shame him for it either. But I guess sometimes along with de activations communication can also be a huge struggle otherwise. The girl I saw never made it obvious she was talking to other people or having back burner. This all came out nuch later on after the de activation, and the first de activation almost a year ago , where I let it go more because we weren't as established together but it still felt very abnormal at the time. How she was telling me she really liked me but was really scared of messing things up and we had just been intimate that night prior. And then not two days later she was out with another guy and they were being very physical with each other in public. Mutual friends saw them together and told me about it, that's when I stopped talking to her and cut her out for over 6 weeks. But all the time when she's not de activated she will make it seem very clear in her behavior and how she is, that I'm the only person she's involved with. And won't even comment on another guys looks or do anything to make me jealous. She will act like the perfect girlfriend basically. But then when she gets triggered and needs to distance or de activate thats when other stuff like that starts to happen. Of which she will never tell me directly but I'll always hear about later anyways. But she's also a very secretive peeson who doesn't trust others because of her attachment issues as well.so perhaps she would do things secretly to distance herself from the connection. She also told me a couple times how people make her feel suffocated and she doesn't trust anyone completely , even her best friends. As well as the only thing she actually cared about in life seriously was her work at a children's hospital , and children's therapy. I'mvery confused over everything that happened myself. So I'm trying to understand how this attachment stuff works over all because I have my own issues that kept me in this situation far longer then I should have been. |
|
|
|
Post by serenity on Oct 31, 2019 3:47:50 GMT
Stu, I think of it this way: If you'd been in love with someone who didn't have the FA issues, your behaviour would have likely led to a secure relationship. You said yourself that deactivation wasn't a deal breaker for you, but cheating was. Well, you honored your boundary immediately when that line was crossed, which is healthy and strong.
Its just so disappointing when deactivation strategies cross into those negative mindsets and behaviours like `grass is greener' `cheating' `Abuse' `excessive negative attitude towards you partner'
I hoped so much my partner wouldn't go that way, but he did. Not all FA's do. Some FA's have very clear heads and see through their own bullshit, others don't.
|
|
