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Post by stu on Oct 31, 2019 3:56:08 GMT
Stu, I think of it this way: If you'd been in love with someone who didn't have the FA issues, your behaviour would have likely led to a secure relationship. You said yourself that deactivation wasn't a deal breaker for you, but cheating was. Well, you honored your boundary immediately when that line was crossed, which is healthy and strong. Its just so disappointing when deactivation strategies cross into those negative mindsets and behaviours like `grass is greener' `cheating' `Abuse' `excessive negative attitude towards you partner' I hoped so much my partner wouldn't go that way, but he did. Not all FA's do. Some FA's have very clear heads and see through their own bullshit, others don't. Thank you Serenity, i really appreciate that. Indeed it does suck. You hope for the best and look for all the good in someone. But sometimes they just aren't healthy enough to be in a solid relationship and have destructive habits they still need to overcome. I do think like you mentioned not everyone follows the same one track, and not everyone will act out in the same ways. Like people mentioned before I think a lot of that comes with maturity and emotional growth. Because you can be mature, emotionally more adult, but since attachment issues run so deep I think those can still linger for some time until you really address them and get some serious work with it. So insecure attachment does not equal I'm maturity or emotional stunting. but when those other things are in the picture too it can make for a rough time 😅 |
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Post by serenity on Oct 31, 2019 6:13:31 GMT
I do think like you mentioned not everyone follows the same one track, and not everyone will act out in the same ways. Like people mentioned before I think a lot of that comes with maturity and emotional growth. Honestly think if my ex was young and hot, hanging out at bars and clubs with lots of suitors, he would have gone with cheating eventually too. I wouldn't have trusted him to be faithful if he disappeared from my life for months under those circumstances. He was one of those older guys who preferred solitary activities at home in his spare time. So I wouldn't say he `matured' just that opportunities of youth were not as prevalent. |
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Post by stu on Oct 31, 2019 7:50:06 GMT
Honestly think if my ex was young and hot, hanging out at bars and clubs with lots of suitors, he would have gone with cheating eventually too. I wouldn't have trusted him to be faithful if he disappeared from my life for months under those circumstances. He was one of those older guys who preferred solitary activities at home in his spare time. So I wouldn't say he `matured' just that opportunities of youth were not as prevalent. Haha good point but the other thing is I don't even know if what happened with me really fits into cheating or not? I mean in her mind during the de activation she completely cut all contact so perhaps that was her way of ending it with me, albiet in an extremely immature way and probably from her own de activation triggers rather then anything I did to make her want to split, or us not being compatible and the typical break up reasons. Still it's a line that once crossed completely ended it for me anyways so the definition isn't important to me. I think when you said mature though I assumed in other ways rather then just that. As there are many mature vs immature ways to handle situations and other people in your life. Insecurely attached or not. Notice that definition is not immatualy attached after all haha |
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Post by iz42 on Oct 31, 2019 8:40:34 GMT
stu my ex did a lot of back and forth with me and when we finally broke up, we reconnected a few months later and it seemed like we might get back together. Then he told me out of the blue that he was moving in with another woman. That only lasted a few months, and then he was back trying to get me involved again. I’m not sure he’s representative of FAs, but I experienced a lot of the same kind of whiplash you describe. This pattern happened more than once and I’m pretty sure he did the same thing to his ex before me. I don’t think he ever technically cheated on me (that I know of) but there were other people involved and very confusing boundaries. I know how hard it is, but it’s good you got out when you did.
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Post by serenity on Oct 31, 2019 10:16:26 GMT
Haha good point but the other thing is I don't even know if what happened with me really fits into cheating or not? I mean in her mind during the de activation she completely cut all contact so perhaps that was her way of ending it with me, albiet in an extremely immature way and probably from her own de activation triggers rather then anything I did to make her want to split, or us not being compatible and the typical break up reasons. Still it's a line that once crossed completely ended it for me anyways so the definition isn't important to me. I think when you said mature though I assumed in other ways rather then just that. As there are many mature vs immature ways to handle situations and other people in your life. Insecurely attached or not. Notice that definition is not immatualy attached after all haha Yeah that part is real confusing. You gotta set you own boundaries when it comes to contact being cut off without a discussion. I've googled this kind of thing, and for real short relationships, no contact for a week is enough for most daters to consider it over. If its a longer relationship, then 1 month is usually regarded as the `over' point. That's pretty much how how I'd see it too, depending on the intensity of the relationship. |
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Post by stu on Oct 31, 2019 11:10:01 GMT
Haha good point but the other thing is I don't even know if what happened with me really fits into cheating or not? I mean in her mind during the de activation she completely cut all contact so perhaps that was her way of ending it with me, albiet in an extremely immature way and probably from her own de activation triggers rather then anything I did to make her want to split, or us not being compatible and the typical break up reasons. Still it's a line that once crossed completely ended it for me anyways so the definition isn't important to me. I think when you said mature though I assumed in other ways rather then just that. As there are many mature vs immature ways to handle situations and other people in your life. Insecurely attached or not. Notice that definition is not immatualy attached after all haha Yeah that part is real confusing. You gotta set you own boundaries when it comes to contact being cut off without a discussion. I've googled this kind of thing, and for real short relationships, no contact for a week is enough for most daters to consider it over. If its a longer relationship, then 1 month is usually regarded as the `over' point. That's pretty much how how I'd see it too, depending on the intensity of the relationship. Well i do believe it ended very obviously due to her own de activation and whatever her brain told her to separate herself from me. But I think part of my own issue was reading up about attachment and things I learned from this forum. I wrongly presumed it was just a de activation even though it was over 8 weeks long. And that when she's finally out of it we can talk and reconnect. I also based on what I learned here, things between me and her, my own knowledge of her personality, and respect towards me. I didn't expect her to move on and start seeing other people in that time. And especially without having any kind of talk to say she wanted to end things or anything at all. All my friends who I don't talk about attachment theory with told me she's done with you. She ghosted you man, it's over. And I always just nod and agree while knowing what deeper things are going on. But perhaps just accepting their opinion as the truth would be better. Because technically for as long as the de activation lasts the other person is done with you. And any sense of connection to you ceases to exist for them. At least for as long as that de activation lasts. So I was being nieve assuming she was just scared and needing space and we would talk again and I would get the chance to have a conversation about everything with her. I put my own mental stuff on her that never should have been there because it's impossible to know what's going on for someone unless you communicate. I tried to reach out multiple times but everytime I did she never ended up being responsive. My mind told me ahh she feels engulfed just got to let it go and she will talk to me when she's ready then, and all these other assumptions that may be true but stuff I never would have known about before. It made me wait around assuming she still liked me, wasn't interested in others but was needing space to feel safe. Perhaps not knowing all of that would have made me stick around less and not invest anymore. But I'm still glad I got to learn about all I did , even if it meant getting hurt a bit more then not trying at all. I at least gave things my best shot and didn't back down from taking a big risk because I loved someone. |
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Post by stu on Oct 31, 2019 11:27:55 GMT
stu my ex did a lot of back and forth with me and when we finally broke up, we reconnected a few months later and it seemed like we might get back together. Then he told me out of the blue that he was moving in with another woman. That only lasted a few months, and then he was back trying to get me involved again. I’m not sure he’s representative of FAs, but I experienced a lot of the same kind of whiplash you describe. This pattern happened more than once and I’m pretty sure he did the same thing to his ex before me. I don’t think he ever technically cheated on me (that I know of) but there were other people involved and very confusing boundaries. I know how hard it is, but it’s good you got out when you did. Wow that's very odd, sounds like they are just trying to get needs met in a really dysfunctional way that doesn't really take into consideration the other person. Like the type of person that always needs to have someone around so they have people lined up or waiting in the wings, just in case. I know a lot of people who lack maturity can do things like this. But yeah that just sounds like a very confused person that is best to stay away from. And thank you I appreciate it. The level of stress relief I felt finally being done was a huge releif. Even though it came with the grief, rejection, and loss. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 11:57:42 GMT
stu , in my opinion it's very healthy that you realize that you had something going on in you that caused you to remain in those conditions longer than would have been healthy. When you recognize your own missteps in terms of not holding standards for mature, respectful treatment and instead lower it for a person you are attached to but don't fully understand, you leave yourself wide open to being deluded and led astray by your own fantasies and wishful thinking. I personally think that staying in a situation where you've been ghosted is related to insecure attachment in yourself. The issue of emotional attachment to an abandonment figure (the ghoster represents abandonment, not love in my perspective) is actually well documented, and even when people think they have moved beyond the abandonment and neglect of their past, it can rear its head in situations such as this. Likely, once it's resolved you will be turned off by abandonment instead of "switched on". You'll feel secure and able to say, "well.... I can see the good and the bad in you but I have certain values and needs in a relationship, and this doesn't cut it. My emotional health requires reciprocity, emotional security and respect in both myself and my partner. I'll pass on inconsistency and emotional upheaval, and find a companion that can walk beside me in integrity. We don't have to be perfect, but we do have to be present... in fact presence is the number one factor in being in a relationship with me." My experience is that when you really understand and heal your own patterns, the pattern of the abandonment figure becomes less important because it doesn't hook you anymore, you get closure.
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Post by nyc718 on Oct 31, 2019 12:13:14 GMT
Well, I am a human who is in touch with my emotions, so I do allow myself to feel all of them! Of course I was distressed, but I was in a very different place than when I first realized he was FA months ago. I have thought a LOT about what's going on these past few weeks, and I see how he is behaving even as of yesterday and today, things I haven't shared on this board, but I have shared with some who have DM'd me and we have our own conversations about what we have in common. It's not really until situations come up that I think so hard about all this. When things are going smoothly, the last thing I'm thinking about is anyone's attachment style, but since this has been what's going on in the past two weeks, I came to the place that I know people understand. It's been very helpful for me, and I hope that my input has been helpful for some as well. Sharing experiences has always been helpful to me, from both ends. I would think that we should all want to continue growing, even if we have setbacks from time to time. We are human after all. I'm really rooting for for you and hope it all turns out for the best. I can see why you want to take the risks like I did as well. And I don't think every Fa is going to be as damaging as the one I saw. I really hope to hear great things about your experience and in the least if it doesn't work out the personal growth and strength you'll have going through it! I want to see at least a couple people having a happy ending for once though haha Thank you so much stu ! I appreciate it. I know things will work out for you, with or without her. I know you want it to be with her, but if it doesn't go that way, you are so insightful and thoughtful that I know someone will recognize all you bring to the table and fully appreciate all of it. I hope things work out for me too, and if not, well, I've healed from heartache a few times in my life. If I have to heal from this one too, that's what it will be. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2019 14:22:27 GMT
So, in the interest of anyone experiencing intermittent reinforcement in a romantic relationship, but unsure about what that looks like emotionally for them: does anyone have a good res source that describes the dynamic? Are there emotional states, patterns, and cognitive processes that are indicators of being "successfully" conditioned by intermittent reinforcement in a relationship? For anyone that is stuck it seems like the first step would be, being able to identify what it looks and feels like. alexandra, I think you might be the most well-read person on here with all this... we know what it looks like in a dog or a dove or whatever experimental subject there may be. Not assuming diabolical intent on the part of the inconsistently available individual, how do the symptoms of conditioning present in the person who is the role of the one being reinforced? What's the internal dialog, the external expression, etc? It could benefit someone thinking "I wish I could get away from this person but I can't seem to!" if they had a concise description they could relate to in order to understand what they are dealing with in themselves and their conditioning. |
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Post by dhali on Oct 31, 2019 17:00:46 GMT
Haha good point but the other thing is I don't even know if what happened with me really fits into cheating or not? I mean in her mind during the de activation she completely cut all contact so perhaps that was her way of ending it with me, albiet in an extremely immature way and probably from her own de activation triggers rather then anything I did to make her want to split, or us not being compatible and the typical break up reasons. Still it's a line that once crossed completely ended it for me anyways so the definition isn't important to me. I think when you said mature though I assumed in other ways rather then just that. As there are many mature vs immature ways to handle situations and other people in your life. Insecurely attached or not. Notice that definition is not immatualy attached after all haha I can tell you that if I haven't talked to my significant other for a week or so, I'd consider the relationship over, and feel free to kiss/flirt/sleep with whomever I wanted to. Now, my state of mind probably would not be there, but I wouldn't feel badly if I did it. If someone wants to be with me, they would be. If they are not, then I am going to find someone who does. It's that simple to me. I guess we all have our own lines, but some lines are just being a doormat. In my opinion. |
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Post by nyc718 on Oct 31, 2019 17:17:43 GMT
Haha good point but the other thing is I don't even know if what happened with me really fits into cheating or not? I mean in her mind during the de activation she completely cut all contact so perhaps that was her way of ending it with me, albiet in an extremely immature way and probably from her own de activation triggers rather then anything I did to make her want to split, or us not being compatible and the typical break up reasons. Still it's a line that once crossed completely ended it for me anyways so the definition isn't important to me. I think when you said mature though I assumed in other ways rather then just that. As there are many mature vs immature ways to handle situations and other people in your life. Insecurely attached or not. Notice that definition is not immatualy attached after all haha I can tell you that if I haven't talked to my significant other for a week or so, I'd consider the relationship over, and feel free to kiss/flirt/sleep with whomever I wanted to. Now, my state of mind probably would not be there, but I wouldn't feel badly if I did it. If someone wants to be with me, they would be. If they are not, then I am going to find someone who does. It's that simple to me. I guess we all have our own lines, but some lines are just being a doormat. In my opinion. I am really not trying to be confrontational with you, but you don't seem to be taking into account that FA's feel engulfed, and their subconscious drives them to certain behaviors, like withdrawing for an amount of time. For some it's days, for some weeks, for some months. I'm just wondering why, if an FA needs to do that to recenter themselves, you aren't making any allowance for that? It's not necessarily personal against the people they are with, you know? And I've said a few times in a few places, FAs are not all the same and they are all over on the spectrum of the avoidance. So why not take it case by case? My ex Fa and I only last about 8 months in total, but my current FA and I have been together for almost a year and a half in total. With my current FA, we had gone much deeper and further in 8 months than my ex FA in the 8 months I had been with him. This is why I am not looking at him like my ex FA, because he IS different. They are both FA, but they aren't exactly the same. I am willing to take this current one as far as it will go without me being a "doormat" which I don't consider myself to be. IF I start feeling like that, then yes, it will be time to walk. But I don't feel like he is walking all over me, I feel like he feels a certain way that he doesn't even understand, and he needs to withdraw and take some space to himself. Again, not trying to attack you, I just wonder why it has to be so black and white. I know in some cases, it is that black and white, but it's not for every case. |
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Post by dhali on Oct 31, 2019 17:47:03 GMT
Because it's bad behavior. It's destructive. I don't believe you can have a healthy relationship with someone who does this. If they want their time alone, they would have to say so. Not just take it. That's not a relationship, that's 2 individuals playing couple sometimes, when it's convenient for one. As for taking into account subconscious - great. That doesn't make it any less destructive. And by pointing to subconscious stuff it's excusing the behavior. I've mentioned elsewhere before, but narcissists don't actively know what they are doing. Where's the empathy for them? You can have empathy without putting yourself in harms way. And it's not your issue to fix.
You must have missed it along the way, but I'm an admitted soft FA. Really soft now. I come across as very secure - can be pushed anxious at times, but I have control over my physical actions (words too) - just not the somatic feelings. This wasn't always the case. I've even done some stalking as a result when I was a teen (I'm not proud of this). Sure my emotional state drove me to do this, but I realized I am in control of what I do and say and that's not who I wanted to be. None of us are remote controlled. As for being FA, my history suggests that I'll leave you eventually. My longest stretch - 14 yrs.
Relationships take work, and someone bouncing without warning is not putting in the work I would want to see. I wouldn't ever trust them to be there for me when it mattered. Being with someone is hard. But it's worth it, and I'll never be alone again because I didn't put in the work. I'm looking for the same. I have said to everyone I was in a relationship with, that if either of us leaves, it's over for me, and I'll be moving on. My last gf (an FA), left abruptly, and rudely. She gets to test drive my statement. I'm pretty sure she's aware that it's over. Maybe it'll make her next relationship more stable, knowing that some men, at least, have a backbone. I think most FA's are used to being with people who don't stand up for themselves, so it's normal to have someone always waiting for them. Not me.
It also seems to me that people who are accepting of this are putting the other person's needs in front of their own. That's just not healthy.
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Post by dhali on Oct 31, 2019 18:12:34 GMT
One more thing:
Why would you ever be excited to be with someone who is not excited to be with you? If they’re not happy with you now, what makes you think they’ll be happy to be with you later? Why do you make an effort to convince someone to date you when they make no effort to convince you? What does that say about you? That you believe you need to convince people to be with you? Doesn't imply that you wouldn’t even want to be with yourself?
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Post by nyc718 on Oct 31, 2019 18:18:40 GMT
Because it's bad behavior. It's destructive. I don't believe you can have a healthy relationship with someone who does this. If they want their time alone, they would have to say so. Not just take it. That's not a relationship, that's 2 individuals playing couple sometimes, when it's convenient for one. As for taking into account subconscious - great. That doesn't make it any less destructive. And by pointing to subconscious stuff it's excusing the behavior. I've mentioned elsewhere before, but narcissists don't actively know what they are doing. Where's the empathy for them? You can have empathy without putting yourself in harms way. And it's not your issue to fix. You must have missed it along the way, but I'm an admitted soft FA. Really soft now. I come across as very secure - can be pushed anxious at times, but I have control over my physical actions (words too) - just not the somatic feelings. This wasn't always the case. I've even done some stalking as a result when I was a teen (I'm not proud of this). Sure my emotional state drove me to do this, but I realized I am in control of what I do and say and that's not who I wanted to be. None of us are remote controlled. As for being FA, my history suggests that I'll leave you eventually. My longest stretch - 14 yrs. Relationships take work, and someone bouncing without warning is not putting in the work I would want to see. I wouldn't ever trust them to be there for me when it mattered. Being with someone is hard. But it's worth it, and I'll never be alone again because I didn't put in the work. I'm looking for the same. I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I do agree that a FA cannot have a healthy relationship as if they were Secure, but I am not expecting them to be able to either. I don't think all FAs are narcissists, so I am not going to agree that it's necessarily narcissistic behavior either. I have been in long term relationships, short term relationships, married to someone I had been with in total for 10 years, I have been with all types and a lot of different relationships myself. I know I used to be way FA, and certainly wasn't knowingly trying to hurt anyone, I just didn't know anything else besides my own little head. I currently identify with earned secure who can have anxious and fearful tendencies when brought out by someone. I am definitely more flexible though than you of others, and part of the reason why I am more flexible and less rigid is because since I used to be FA, I understand that if they don't know, then they don't know. I didn't know until I knew that I had to make some changes. If someone is made aware and doesn't do anything about it, then yeah, I will hold someone more accountable, but if they just have no clue, I can't help but hold them less accountable because they are ignorant, just like I was. I am just more forgiving in that way. It doesn't mean I'm saying it's ok, they get a pass, or that I'll necessarily stick around for it indefinitely, as it is also up to me to decide what I'll stand for, what my limits and boundaries are, what is ok and what is enough for me. My ex FA is clueless, and I eventually walked away because I had enough. I didn't know what FA was at the time though, so I look at him now and think he's kind of stuck and pathetic, doomed to forever go around in that sad circle of his. And as much as he hurt me and jerked me around, I still walked away with my dignity because I ended it and I never, ever looked back. When he came knocking several times after, he was met with silence. I think what it comes down to is we just have different limitations, and that's ok to me. It doesn't seem ok to you though that others may be more flexible. I'm not trying to convince you that you should be, but I do think you could back off a little if someone isn't as rigid in their boundaries as you are. |
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